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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
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How to avoid a sharp attack sound? Help Needed.......
(Ok Guys I Edited The Question Thread For Clarifications)
Question Is:
How to avoid a sharp attack sound? And also to decrease the "clicky" sound Help
Needed.......
Thanks u Tony for the Help! You said u like to see a gallary of
rishas! I added also some videos you can check it out!
Sometimes I Have A Problem of Saying it in words what I really meant. I'm Not good at english.
Sorry for the misconceptions.......
I have uploaded a Video on youtube. I demonstrated 4 Kinds of Risha's:
[file]12502[/file] [file]12534[/file]
From Heavy to Light Tensions:
1. Fat and thick risha is made of nylon plastic that bendable. but it does not have the elasticity. It does not come back fast
to its original position if you bend it. more warmer sound. And also very hard for tremolo technique. Sometimes I get caught on the strings. Color =
Milky White
[file]12506[/file] [file]12508[/file]
2. Pyramid Pro (Medium) is made of celloloid I think. Has a Warm sound, flexible also. This One Has Smooth Edges. A little bit
hard on tremolo technique. Color = Grayish w/ Tortoise design
[file]12510[/file] [file]12512[/file]
3. Celloloid Medium/Light is more flexible and thiner than Pyramid Mediums. Almost same Material as Pyramid Pro(mediums) But
lighter. Two sided edge, One Is Longer and The Other is More Rounder Almost Same Curve on the Pyramid Pro (medium). Easy for tremolo technique and
sounds a bit sharper. Color = Red w/ Tortoise design
[file]12514[/file] [file]12516[/file]
4. Pyramid Standard (Lightest) Tension is the most flexible and thinest light material plastic. I did Not Sand the Tips yet.
But this one Is Very Clicky. This one is the easiest for tremolo but no power and less volume compare to the medium pyramid.
Color = Available in red or white tortoise Design
[file]12518[/file] [file]12524[/file]
On the Video on Risha Difference. I Played from thickess to the lightest.
Then the other one The Sequence is from Light to Thick and I repeated it. So Its 2x played.
I also add the accented "buzzy" sound that nylon trebles create. which I like very much. But this is only applies to nylon trebles not the wound
strings! I dont like buzzing wound strings I suppose.
This is just to show what I'm talking about b4 with tony.
Accented Buzz Test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1s6brg7Jjo
Accented Buzz Improv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY5a9UYEraA
Risha Combination Heavy to Light
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xORJrmuA4zk
Risha Combination Light to Heavy (Played twice)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhu2bqkUmJY
IMPORTANT NOTICE:
The Videos was recorded in a low quality camera. Sorry I don't have anything Professional to used. And Normally the original sound was lost. And The
Sound Became So Sharp.
Original Sound was Big Sweet Low sound. and It didn't show on the recording. So Please Bare with me on this.
I Play near the bridge. But in actuall sound playin on the bridge on my oud sound ok not to sharp I supposed.
You Can hear the subtle changes. But off course its a bit difficult to hear but still there is a change in the attack sound.
Any suggestions on other materials that are flexible but not sound thin or sharper?
Proper Edge Sanding technique's perhaps,
Or maybe some advises on Risha angle's, wrist motions etc..?
Sorry If The Playing was always repeating. This is Just to show and focus on the attack sound from Different Rishas.
Tell me Which Sounds Better in Your Opinion?
Should I sand the Standard (Lightest Tension) Pyramid Risha in order to sound a little
smoother?
deepest regards
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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Aymara
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Use a goose or turkey feather's quill to pick the strings 
I already told you, that it rocks
But whoever wants to try it, don't harm any birds and BUY the feathers as I did (e.g. HERE) or ask the local slaughterhouse, where you might get them for free, because the sizes we're interested in can't be used for pillows and are
maybe considered junk.
PS: But it is important, that the quill's top is of an equaly round shape, which I achieved with a fine file.
But I would expect, that the horn rishas, FernandRaynauld recommended will also reduce the clicking sound, depending on the shape of the risha's
top.
And I can tell you ... the best way to eliminate this clicking is picking the strings with your fingers, like some folk guitarists do. A further
effect of doing so is, that the oud sounds a bit more like a European lute, which you might consider a downside or even an advantage, depending on
personal taste and the music you play.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
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Thanks Chris
All the Best,
Flip
Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  |
And I can tell you ... the best way to eliminate this clicking is picking the strings with your fingers, like some folk guitarists do.
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Yes I do Pluck it sometimes. I Use a Snap Technique Usually works Only on Wounds. I tap the whatever wound string I want To accentuate then Hit it
with the direct fingernails from my 2 finger of the wrist hands.
It Sounds Like a Slap Pop from bass Playin'
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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Aymara
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Using the nails doesn't eliminate the clicking ... use the fingertips without the nails touching the string and the sound is absolutely smooth.
From what I read some Iraqi oud players use such techniques sometimes ... let me know if you should ever find a video showing this.
| Quote: | | It Sounds Like a Slap Pop from bass Playin' |
Yes, sounds similar to slapping a bass are possible too.
Hey, the ouds traditionalists will get a stomach ache from our discussion
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
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This is just an e.g. of an absolute insane reversal for some effect sound.
This Is Like Snapping directly downward with your 2nd finger on the string!
We will revolutionize Oud Technique's"lets add shall we" LOL
There is always Medicine Tablets for stomach ache's.
BTW One More technique is I call "Scratching Claws" =
By dragging your nail like an upward pluck but intead geting caught on the pair strings. so you can hear the nails dragging the 2 string for example.
Sounds like somebody just rip-off your string! hehehe
Please Ignore this message for the fainted hearts.
sorry guys this is nothing to do with the topic thread just some thoughts of mine.
Gracias
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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fernandraynaud
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You'd have to be more precise. Or provide a sound file. Different clicks, some are good.
Like some "snap" is part of the normal attack sound. If you are hitting the soundboard hard ... then don't. The risha should be an extension of the
thumb. If you have 2 cm sticking out, that's a VERY long thumb, it's difficult to control, pull it back in.
But some click is useful. In the first part of the sound file you can hear the risha snapping on the soundboard to get that phonky clicky sound, in
the second part the risha is just pulled in tighter so it doesn't hit the soundboard, but you still have a lot of "snap", I think that's part of the
beautiful sound of an Arabic oud. The third section is just the normal picking with tremolo, you can also hear snap. Is the "clicking" you're talking
about different?
[file]12450[/file]
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Sazi
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Hi, is that one of your delrin risha's or a horn?
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fernandraynaud
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That was cow horn, shaped the same as Delrin. Here are two A/B recordings with Cowhorn, followed by Delrin. It's very subtle, but I prefer the horn,
it does sound a bit mellower, the Delrin is very clear but has some harder more "plasticky" harmonics. Sorry, recorded on my laptop, very noisy. To
distinguish the "bowed edge" advantage of Cow Horn takes more specific conditions. This is all very subtle. For all practical purposes, Delrin is
excellent.
[file]12451[/file]
[file]12454[/file]
[file]12452[/file]
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Sazi
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Ahh, yes, I see what you mean.
I liken it to the difference between my pvc nay and the real cane one, somehow more organic sounding, richer, subtle but distinct.
Thanks for that, S.
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fernandraynaud
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Get the second file I just uploaded, Saz!
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Sazi
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Got it, that's the one where I could really notice the more organic sound, very nice actually, I'm going to have to get some!
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FLIPAX
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Hi Tony and Saz!
I will try to record. I have a HP mini Laptop. I dont know how can I record on this mic? Help needed. Does it go straight to mp3?
About that Yes I'm not hitting the soundboard. Yes I did shorten the length of the risha maybe around .75cm to 1cm only. Its fine now.
So what you mean is it is ok to have that "click sound" sometimes?
Does other players pull back in and out the thumb extension to have a "snap"or no "snap"?
Thanks for the encouragement and Inspiration Mr Tony!
Yes thats correct this is the snap I'm Talking about. But there is also one more thing I'm getting a Small "click" I think it is something to do with
the risha's angle perpendicular to the string.
When you Pluck does the risha should be perpendicular straight as to the string? all the time?
e.g.
Risha Straight Plucking(Perpendicular)
Bridge-----------------`~-------------------Pegbox
A Little angle only (Not exactly like the drawing)
Bridge-----------------\----------------------PegBox
BTW This is Not the 45 degrees angle of the wrist like Ms Marina's mention on her Instructional DVD.
Thanks For the Recorded Example's!
Shalom
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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fernandraynaud
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Philip, I'm not an instructor, all I can tell you is what works for me. This sketch shows the best angle, the red line is the string. In the other
plane, looking down at the soundboard, the risha is roughly parallel to the strings, with also a small angle.
Now, if you push the risha down on a string pair, the whole face meets the first string, but point A is a little above above the string, so as you
push, the string slides against the edge of the risha until it slips off point B, which is the tip of the risha, and that's the "pluck". Another way
to say it is that the risha edge rides on the string until the tip plucks. Then the process repeats on the second string. A third way to look at it is
that you're using the edge to automatically maintain the depth that the risha plucks at. That's why a shape like this works so well, the only part
that really needs to be thin is the tip. This shape makes it much smoother than if you turned the risha up at say 60 degrees or more, and then you
would have to somehow hold it and keep it at the right depth while you plucked. You'd have a heck of a time making a fast tremolo that way! You'd also
almost HAVE to rest your hand on the bridge, and that kills the tone.
How much of the risha sticks out past your thumb is one way to control the plucking and the sound, you get more snap with a thin risha with more
length, but you have to be careful not to hit the soundboard (not too hard anyway). Obviously some accidental contact with the soundboard is to be
expected, or they wouldn't provide a pick-guard. I usually have between 0.5 cm and 2 cm of risha sticking out, depending. Rest the forearm on the edge
of the oud, don't rest your wrist on the bridge. Some people play with the forearm high, others with the forearm below the midline.
If you play with the arm low, a big advantage is that you can earn spare change by playing your oud while walking about in public places, buses,
trains, because you can actually hold the oud against your body that way, and play standing up, with no strap. You need a dwarf, or a little person as
they are properly called, to hold the money cup and grin, while you (both) preambulate and play endless taqasim in the more uplifting of the maqamat
(e.g. Rast). More complex schemes, such as the little person holding a white cane (how could YOU hold it and play?), or the little person doing
"tricks", or using a guide dog, or just hanging a cardboard sign around your neck that says "BLIND", making faces and bumping into the posts on the
metro as you play, are also possible. Those who cannot play should not abandon hope, as passengers have been known to drop coins in the cup, lean over
and whisper "but please stop playing".
[file]12457[/file]
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fernandraynaud
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Horn vs Delrin risha, good recording.
NOW you can hear it! I finally made a good short comparison recording under exactly the same conditions playing two identically shaped rishas, the
first one shaped out of a MidEast Mfg. Cow Bone blank (OUDP), the second out of a MidEast Mfg. Egyptian plastic blank (OUDQ - this being Delrin,
acetal). The oud is my Sukar Model 1, the strings are a Daniel Mari Turkish set. This is a very short clip, 10 seconds of each, recorded in the studio
with the same excellent mics, same position, same reverb, etc., and would best be auditioned with headphones.
I've never liked the sound of plain nylon strings high up on the neck. If you listen carefully here, you can hear how the horn risha helps tame some
of those twangy harmonics and adds its own subtle richness. After hearing the Cow Horn, the Delrin sounds really brash. I think this should also sound
good on the floating bridge ouds that tend to accentuate the sound of the plain nylons.
Wow! [file]12465[/file]
Plus some pictures here. Grasping the risha in the palm and one possible thumb position. Different risha materials, all with the same rounded point
and beveled edges. The rightmost white shovel is a Panduit nylon wire tie with a tab used to write cable info on. The leftmost is also nylon, the
second from the left we call gummy-bear, I don't know the names of plastics, maybe it's vinyl, it's very soft, the next is stiffer, a bit like a
collar-stay.
To shape the materials, Philip, you just use 2 grades of sandpaper and get to work, sanding away in 3 dimensions.
[file]12459[/file] [file]12461[/file] [file]12463[/file]
If you have a dog/cat and purchased a PediPaws before Billy Mays OD'd , you have a great tool for shaping rishas, and
don't have to ask your family for christmas. 
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FLIPAX
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WOW This Is Very good Info!
Thanks Tony!
I really now Understand what u are trying to say here.
Tip A first then Tip B Sequentially. By this also It creates a nice drag sound.
I'll keep it in mind.
Yes I do Play A little low. Close to the center. but it also depends on the size of the oud. But for my Oud I play w/ low arm. and Also neck Angled
down a little bit like Riyald Sunbati.
| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud |
Those who cannot play should not abandon hope, as passengers have been known to drop coins in the cup, lean over and whisper "but please stop playing"
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Hopefully I'm not ending up with the "but please stop playing" Level
Cheers
Flipo
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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Aymara
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| Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX |
I have a HP mini Laptop. I dont know how can I record on this mic? Help needed. Does it go straight to mp3?
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A HP netbook should use Windows as operating system, so you can use Audacity for recording ... it's free and very powerful. Click on "Hilfe" to find the FAQ and the users manual.
Just make shure, that the microphon is activated as an input source in Windows mixer.
Regarding Tony's comparison ... it's similar between my cable tie risha and the feather. BTW ... I found out, that it's a turkey wing feather, not a
goose's one.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
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Hi Tony!
| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | NOW you can hear it! I finally made a good short comparison recording under exactly the same conditions playing two identically shaped rishas,
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I really heard the difference it tames the high notes.
Now your Talking! For me It's quite different.I don't like the sound on the high if it is not clear and sharp. coz basically I hear a bit blurry on
the high's and making it more clear but adding clarity and sharpness. I understand your preference here.
I have tried sanding some different shape risha's just to get a sharper sound. I use this risha if I'm playin'mostly on the higher registers just to
get a good clear sound not blurry. But I cant play normal beause the sound of the risha is always sharp.
Coz it's weird for me I can Control the risha to sound sharp or fat. and usually I use the default fat sound. By tilting the risha a little bit.
Basically I pluck very soft. the only reason now why I pluck hard is I can't get enough treble my nylons are rectified Labella's and their pretty
sweet and fat sounding. And by tilting the risha and Sliding from point A to point B(Drag Techinique) I get a sharper sound.
But I play all the time Loud and it ruins my dynamics. and what happens is the rectified nylons are sucking the hell out of my sustain POOF! out of
the window! )
Definetely need to change my G & C nylons.... ARRRG!
I Already change my G string to normal nylon coz the labella is so big! or Fat in diameter. And It became Better a Little bit. getting the twang on
the A note.
To tell you a Little Story...... Spare Me
I really like the sound of string when you hit it soft or hard and get this twangy sound but it doesn't mean Harsh or to tinny sound or trebly. then
OOOOHHHH LA LA ......
Anouar Brahem Sweet Twang Sound. Amazing!
Coz Sometimes if I play soft I don't get that twangy sound only if I play louder. ARRRG I dont like always loud but the OUd Is Forcing me to do
so.........
Well thats the story folks at least u know now a little bit of what specifically what I want sound wise............
Peace
Flipo
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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Sazi
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It seems this thread's crossed over a bit with your strings thread Flip,
I know you said you didn't like them cos they were so bright, but maybe it might be a good idea to go back and try the pvf strings again?
Sounds like you want more brightness than either rectified or plain nylon can give you?
And maybe the pvf just need a little bit longer to really stretch in and settle...
Personally, since I discovered the pvf, I could not go back to nylon, and with the siverwound lute basses the balance of tone is very good across the
whole range of the oud.
Cheers bro, S
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fernandraynaud
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Phil, I'm not 100% clear on what you like best. You want a bright(er) twangier sound? Then you would probably like a Turkish oud rather than Arabic.
If not, then an Iraqi floating bridge oud. Maybe trade with someone?
You also want as hard a fingerboard as possible, maybe coat it. The brightest sound would be from an epoxy. I forget which, but some epoxies are
harder than others. I'm a little scared of epoxy because if it doesn't work out, it's only reversible by major sanding. Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) is
very fast setting and easy to work with. Tung Oil is nice because it can be removed with a little work, and it's very easy to apply, though not as
bright sounding, so it might not change your ebony fretboard much.
I think you might definitely want to try the PVF plain strings at the bottom of this page:
http://www.musicaravan.com/strings
For your risha, I think you DO want Delrin and not nylon or shampoo bottle plastic, and certainly not horn or feather.
You can control the tone some by shaping the risha. If you make the tip (B) more pointed and thin, you get a very different sound than if it's thicker
and rounded. It's good to keep trying until you find the perfect shape(s) for you. A risha has 4 sides. I shape one end with a paper thin tip, the
other with a thicker tip, and then at each end I make one side with a longer straight edge from A to B, which plays softer, and the other side with a
shorter A-B straight segment, that gives you the loudest volume and works best with a steeper angle to the string. It's not practical to switch ends,
but it's very easy to flip the risha over as you play, say for a louder passage. I'm not sure exactly why it is so, but if you try it you will find
that the short straight segment plays louder than a longer one.
Picking near the bridge and "fretting" with your nails will also sharpen the tone, like on other string instruments.
Have fun discovering!
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FLIPAX
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Hi Guys!
I'm Sorry about the off topic on the thread. Just a Quick Reply to Tony.
Sorry I got Confused by the term "Twangy" what I was reffering is the "buzz" that the trebles strings create when you hit the pair string. and I Love
this sound. This is only for the treble strings not the wounds off course. nobody wants a buzzing wound strings.
Thanks
I Had Already called Mr Hank last 2 days and ordered PVF Trebles from him.
Ok Lets Get Back to the topic thread...........
So what You were Saying is:
longer straight edge from A to B = plays softer
shorter Rounded a bit edge A to B = plays louder
(Works better if angled risha plucking the strings)
Thanks
BTW How do u manage to not scratch or damage the pick-guard when your "snapping clicks" of your Cow Horn Risha?
I will.... It's a Journey like sazi said !
Cheers
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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When there's any contact, the pickguard is exactly there to protect the soundboard. It's OK to hit it a bit, it's replaceable.
Some ouds, Sukars for instance, have more clearance between the strings and the surface. It's a matter of how the bridge is made and glued, the angle
of the neck, etc.
Your original question was maybe how to avoid a sharp attack sound, so I'm confused. I think you should post some examples of what you don't
like and what you do like, saying "more like this one", etc, because the terminology in English is more specific than how
you are using it.
The word "twangy" for instance is onomatopoeic, normally thought of as a timbre having a lot of midrange and high frequency content with a significant
initial pitch bend, much as you say the word "twang" (especially in Texas), e.g. a Fender Telecaster played with a pick through a small amp, or one of
those big Gretsch hollow-bodies like the Beatles used on early songs.
The word "Buzz" is also onomatopoeic, and generally describes unwanted unpitched sound caused by strings being too low on the fingerboard. I
cannot imagine what you mean by loving the "buzz" that the trebles strings create when you hit the pair string", so let's start over.
You can record in the Windows Sound Recorder (in Accessories), save as .WMA, or .MP3 if you can.
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Aymara
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Easier and more comfortable would be Audacity, which I mentioned above ... just read the manual, if needed ... the handling is very intuitive and it
can save in MP3, which Windows accessories can't.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
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Hey Flip, what risha are you using that gives you the clicky sound?
I just got a couple of Pyramid rishas, one is a "standard" risha the other one is a "professional" risha, and the difference between the two is very
obvious...
The "standard" thin one had very loud clicky sound, but I noticed it needed a bit of tlc around the edges, after a very light sanding to round the
edges a bit, (it's very thin) the clicking was better, but still there a bit...
The "professional" comes with nicely rounded edges, and has no click at all, in fact I found it a bit dull sounding, but it is much thicker, so I
lightly sanded one end to somewhere in between the standard and pro thicknesses, & voila! instant perfect risha with no clicks
Take care bro, S
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fernandraynaud
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Sazi, since we're getting into some subtle issues here, can YOU put up a little soundfile to illustrate the difference between the two rishas, and
since the shape has as much affect as the material, maybe a couple of photos so we can see the shape? It would be nice to build up a gallery of rishas
with soundfiles.
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Sazi
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You're right there, they are REALLY subtle issues, and I agree, it would be really helpful to have as much info, pic's and soundfiles of each as
possible, and as I wrote the post I was wishing I could put something up to illustrate the point ('scuse the pun) but as I mentioned in another post, I have no means of recording at the moment, or even a camera, I should be able to
borrow a camera but recordings are out for a while I'll get another interface
eventually...
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