| Pages:
1
2 |
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The History of the Floating Bridge
Hi everybody,
in THIS diskussion on page 3 JDowning posted the following image, which might be a hint, that the floating bridge is much older than most people
think.
[file]12601[/file]
JDowning dated the image pre-14th Century, but he also gave the hint, that this image might be altered.
The player seems to use a finger picking technique of thumb and index finger, that is dated to early 16th C for the European lute.
Because it seems, that the strings don't go over the bridge, I first thought, it might serve as a support for the hand while finger picking, but then
the heel of the hand would be above the bridge and not behind it.
So it seems, that Sazi is right, that it might be a special floating bridge like THIS one on a Syrian oud by Zaher Khalife (photo courtesy of Fadel).
What do you think ... might it be possible that the first floating bridge ouds were built in the late Middle Ages or early Renaissance?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Good that you mentioning this about floating bridge.
I told that several years ago to a German oud expert that this oud seems to have a floating bridge. The expert who unfortunately had so strong hate
for Bashir and floating bridge equipped ouds went mental.
Some of you knows the guy 
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hehe
Imagine Munir Bashir and Mohammad Fadel weren't the inventors of the floating bridge in the late 1950ies, but were inspired by this image to
reintroduce the floating bridge.
That would be bad news for Bashir and/or floating bridge haters, who might call floating bridge ouds "hybrids" or "not real ouds".
But who cares ... I think, we should try to keep this discussion free of emotions and concentrate on the question, if the floating bridge might have a
longer history as usually documented.
For that reason I tried to find out hints, what inspired Bashir and Fadel to build the first "modern" floating bridge ... so far without luck.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  |
Hehe
Imagine Munir Bashir and Mohammad Fadel weren't the inventors of the floating bridge in the late 1950ies, but were inspired by this image to
reintroduce the floating bridge.
That would be bad news for Bashir and/or floating bridge haters, who might call floating bridge ouds "hybrids" or "not real ouds".
But who cares ... I think, we should try to keep this discussion free of emotions and concentrate on the question, if the floating bridge might have a
longer history as usually documented.
For that reason I tried to find out hints, what inspired Bashir and Fadel to build the first "modern" floating bridge ... so far without luck.
|
Yaroub told me about how the Bashir oud was reinvented ;-)
It was during the period Bashir lived in Beirut. The bridge came off the soundboard right before a concert for Bashir. The hide glue combined with
high humidity and also the high string tension used to give his standard ouds problems. I think he should be quite frustrated.
Fadel had the solution by copying the Neapolitan Mandolin.
So we must thank the Italians!
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
jass
Oud Maniac
Posts: 95
Registered: 11-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Guys, dont shoot me here.
But my opinion is that Bashir got the floating bridge oud from Gypsy guitarists. The bridge is exactly the same on these guitars and they also have an
oval shape for the soundhole. I believe it was an attempt to slide easier into the Western world. Just my opinion, but it would make sense, he was
exposed to alot of western musicians and gypsy guitarist from hungry...Just a thought.
Jass
|
|
|
jass
Oud Maniac
Posts: 95
Registered: 11-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ps. I dont think this painting can be any hard evidence either of the floating bridge. According to the painting the oud didnt have tuning pegs 
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Ronny, hi Jass,
maybe it's a combination of both ... the mandolin AND the gypsy guitar.
What, if Bashir said to Fadel to build a floating bridge like on the Gypsy guitar and Fadel made comparisons to the mandolin afterwards? Who knows? So
far, all is speculation.
Regarding the painting ... for shure this is no hard evidence for an early floating bridge, but it is a vague indication, which is worth further
research ... don't you think so?
BTW ... further research lead to two facts:
1. Pythagoras studied the sound produced by vibrating strings and used a floating bridge similar construction (evidence needed),
2. there are other historic instruments (e.g. the ancient Greek Lyra), that had a floating bridge ...
... which both might have influenced oud luthiers in the distant past. So a historic floating bridge oud might have existed.
No question, that research for evidence is needed.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yaroub is Mohammed Fadel son and what he told me is true. It has nothing to do with any gipsy guitar. All features from the Mandolin was copied to the
bent soundboard.
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Reconstructed Iranian oud
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Aah, ok, thanks.
Sorry, but regarding to Iranian Ouds website (see gallery, oud makers, page 5 + 6) this is a barbat made by Ebrahim Ghanbarimehr ... part of the
soundboard is made of animal skin ... interesting.
BTW ... thanks for pointing me to this website, which has a lot of interesting information.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Hey Guys!
Floating or not. We should be thankful that floating bridge became popular due to the fact of players using it. e.g. munir bashir, Fadel Shamma
etc...etc.. Or else it would be not massly produced. And it will be hard to get it. Nowadays its very common to have a floating. Or I think it is
getting more popular than fixed bridge due to the loudness that it creates and the sharpness it gives and extra overtones it adds on the instrument.
And Sometimes its almost a "hype" to get a floating OUd.
The Modern we get we can see that the oud is slowly changing its course century by century. who knows next mellenia what the new oud looks like. Maybe
no bridge at all! LOL
As it may seem e.g My oud has a mixed of fixed bridge and floating. and it sounds a cross breed between them.
Check out my Bridge:
[file]12622[/file]
So History seems to be faithfull in terms of more improvement and chance to see if we missed something that we should add in todays society.
Cheers
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
And it would be interesting to research, if there was an era in the past, where it was similar.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
radixfc
Oud Maniac
Posts: 56
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Spain
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
this image shows a ghiterna (similar to oud) from 14 th century.
the strings go to the bottom of the bowl, so it would mean a floating bridge, but it´s not painted.
many medieval instruments as citole or bandurria had floating bridge... there is nothing strange in that fact.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Of course not. Floating bridges were used on a number of early European plucked instruments - particularly those that were metal strung.
However, the question here concerns the history of the floating bridge as it applies to the oud. Just because a Citole, for example, was fitted with a
floating bridge it does not follow that ouds ever were (prior to the 1950's that is)
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | | Just because a Citole, for example, was fitted with a floating bridge it does not follow that ouds ever were (prior to the 1950's that is)
|
Shure, but it's a nice motivation for further research 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
|
|
I thought you guys might like to see a pic of the first Bashir oud...1956.
[file]12740[/file]
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nice ... thanks.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Obviously there were lutes during the European Middle Ages with floating bridges.
All these long-necked lutes, which are depicted both in Cantiga de Santa Maria manuscript and many other manuscripts, appear to have soundboards made
of skin from the North African tradition. I do not understand why all the reconstructions appear to have soundboards made of wood?
Ouds with floating bridges if they ever existed in the first place, was probably from a much older tradition and certainly not the Medieval
European.
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Not wanting to divert attention away from this search for historical evidence of early floating bridge ouds but, for my information (knowing little
about modern floating bridge ouds) is the cranked sound board (seen on the image posted by Richard) a feature of this style of oud today or has this
been designed out?
The cranked sound board is a feature of the floating bridge, metal strung, Neapolitan Mandolin (that Ronny confirms was the model for the original
Bashir oud). It is also a feature, for example, of the strummed, floating bridge, metal strung 17th/18th C Italian Chitarra Battente. Presumably the
'crank' in the sound board below the bridge is designed to increase the downward load on the bridge, and support a higher string tensions, without
deflecting the sound board excessively than would be possible with a fixed bridge/flat sound board design?
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What is this cranked soundboard? Sorry, i didn't understand it.
Isn't the soundboard convex on floating bridge ouds?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
What is this cranked soundboard? Sorry, i didn't understand it.
Isn't the soundboard convex on floating bridge ouds? |
The first model had a convex soundboard, but also a sharp bend below the bridge.
Sometimes had Bashir an additional bridge for supporting the strings below the main bridge.
you can see the sharp bend at this photo of a mandolin
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This soundboard design was Fadel alone with for a very long time while other builders preferred the traditional flat soundboard for some reason.
Unfortunately, I must say when Fadel instruments do not have the problems that others can get.
I have had Fadel oud as a friend now owns. What is interesting to note is that when you loosen the strings on this oud, so rises the soundboard at the
bridge area a lot and bulging outwards. There is never a depression in the soundboard on M Fadel oud.
Imagine an identical pressure on a flat soundboard, what will happen?
Mohammed Fadel son Yaroub explained for me about the differences between his own ouds and his fathers. His own which are reinforced in order to cope
with this type of bridge combined with a flat soundboard.
I know that Yaroub ouds are very strong and can handle a very high string pressure .
Of course one can build with a flat soundboard but it seems that many oudmakers do not take into account the problems this type of bridge can cause.
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Exactly what Edward Powell reported about his new hybrid instrument ... the bridge will "sink" into the soundboard repectively the soundboard will
bend inwards and in the worst case break (maybe not at once) ... but that didn't happen with Edward's instrument.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
|
|
FIRST OF ALL....
the incident with the bridge was in France,and that is true.
as for the floating bridge you should search much more on the ancient mediterranean instruments,mostly the tanbouroids.....
ofcourse it's not made by the Italians,but they started to use it alot for practical reasons :Humidity
Also Rohny,many years ago you were telling us that the Only Floating bridge oud was Yaroubs,all the others were not at the same class....
Well.....what do you have to say now,as you are the Bashir type ''Master""
I still have my Dimitris Rapakousios floating bridge ou and sounds amazing....Also Mattas ouds sound amazing,also and others.....
the last 10 years I have changed more than 50 ouds...and I am also occupied with luthiery....so,what I wanna say is that....do you still think the
same think?I forgot to mention that most of them are valued more than 3000 euros.....sounding and quality instruments...let us here your opinion my
friend....
|
|
|
spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
|
|
OH,and as for the problems....of the others...maybe...I say maybe the problem was that the instrument didn't have enough of tentions and action to
have the attack sound...anyway,I believe that all these are characteristics of one maker,and I think that is not that the general Idea....if someone
wants to copy of a mandolin,is not an oud...is a mandolin oud...it's nothing wrong with it....but you can not say that a mandolin is a guitar even if
it is on the dimensions of a quitar.....PERSONAL OPINION OFCOURSE....
Oh...by the way...did you hear Jamil Bashir,Munirs Brother...he died very young,and he was playinf with fixed bridge....and I believe that his style
was much more Iraqui than Munirs,ofcourse Munir was the Flamengo style Master....but,personally I believe that Jamil was a Master of it...take a look
on Youtube...I just love his style.I repeat,Munir is a great Master,but personally Like More Jamil.
Oh did I mention that I have a Floating Bridge oud that I love it?
Did I mention that I also have a fretless luth with floating bridge seven courses with metallic strings?Taso Thodoaraki Thanks man
I suppose that there are and many many other luthiers capable to do Great instruments that they last in time and maybe they sound better than the
Brands we know....
Regards to all
[file]12746[/file]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
