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mrkmni
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Buzzzing problem
What is your best guess for what causes the buzzing noize in my new oud ( sukar)?
thanks
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Aymara
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Hi,
to answer this question, a bit more information would be helpful:
- which Sukar model?
- which strings and tuning?
- how high is the action at the neck/body junction?
- where exactly do the strings buzz (which string, which note)?
Or isn't it string buzzing and it's inside the oud?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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What Chris is asking is important, especially measure the height of treble and bass strings at neck-body junction. It's a matter of taste but many
players like 2.5 mm on treble, maybe a hair more on the bass side. You measure to the bottom of the strings, like two US dimes stacked can slip under
2.5 mm without deflecting the strings. At 2.5 mm you will get a touch of a light buzz that's "timbral buzz", it's part of the character of the oud,
especially Turkish ouds, not a malfunction. If you listen to some recordings, you know the diff. The factory strings are so bad you can't tell
anything until you get some real strings on it.
But there is one thing you SHOULD do before changing strings. Tune it how you will be tuning it, the bizarre strings they ship with notwithstanding,
and determine if yiu want more or less clearance at the neck-body junction. Loosen the bass string enough to get your hand in and adjust the butterfly
nut inside against the neck. It normally takes 1/8 turn to move the action up or down a millimeter or so. Take it easy. Clockwise tightens, and
tighter means the neck is pulled down away from the plane of the soundboard, so the action at the neck-body junction is lower. Counterclockwise is
looser, the strings can pull the neck forward/up, so the action rises. It's amazing that only Sukar ouds use this simple mechanism that saves the
owner so much gray hair.
Newcomers should know that ouds suffer from lack of adjustment on the action. The traditional avoidance of an adjustable saddle is justified, as a
saddle unduly brightens the timbre. The truss rod, so useful on guitars, would not help the oud, as the truss rod shapes the catenary curvature of the
neck, and oud necks are short, rigid and straight. The angle between the plane of the soundboard and the plane of the fingerboard, where they meet, is
what needs to be adjusted. Over time, the soundboard sags or spoons, the bridge rises or sinks, and only a trip to a luthier equipped with powerful
voodoo and frightening equipment will tear the neck from the oud and reset its angle. It's a little like Saint George and the dragon, or Salome with
St John's head, or the orthopedist breaking the patient's neck so he can watch television again. With the Sukar mechanism -- a masterpiece of
simplicity in line with Sukar's populist approach, implemented using a couple of nails and a bolt at the junction -- these dreadful neck jobs are a
thing of the last. Even casual adjustments to tailor the timbre can be done in minutes. So sleep tight, unless there are loose parts rattling around
inside, you will be safe. Everybody understands a butterfly nut.
The Faddi Matha design, the only other adjustable neck mechanism on the market, is more complex, equipped with TWO little gizmos to tweak, and an
instructional video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s09aZgHejE8
If you pay close attention to the above clip, you will notice how the lower action brings out the "timbral buzz" which makes the oud sound more
Turkish.
Indeed, if your Sukar buzzes, you can put on some lighter strings in the bass, tune it up to D, coat the fingerboard with the hardest finish you can
muster, lower the action a hair below 2.5 mm and call it a Turkish, OR you can raise the action a bit and call it Arabic ;-) I suspect that the
"compromise" 600 mm scale that Sukar seems to have switched to, is precisely in that flexible spirit. Given the difference in pricing between Arabic
and Turkish ouds, the ability to transform your oud at will between the two types, is nothing short of a miracle.
-- "Ah, from your black hard case and your fez I see you have a Nomad triple soundboard Turkish oud there, young man, (Ka-Ching!) let me open my cash
register and consult the duty tables!"
-- "Oh, no Mr. Customs Man, in your wisdom you surely can hear that this is a humble Kabaret El Fun I got on Muhamed Ali Street! (TripityTripity
Plink) Listen to my version of Lissa Faker!"
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mrkmni
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Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  | Hi,
to answer this question, a bit more information would be helpful:
- which Sukar model?
- which strings and tuning?
- how high is the action at the neck/body junction?
- where exactly do the strings buzz (which string, which note)?
Or isn't it string buzzing and it's inside the oud? |
Hi Aymara,
- Model 1
- standard strings came with..
- Tuning: arab F GG AA DD gg cc
- mostly the gg string almost all the notes: free + fingered
- I thing the buzz is in the strings; i checked if there were someting not fixed inside, i did not find anything..
I posted the sound here and i will post more clear one:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10773
thanks
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mrkmni
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I have a small distance beteen the strings and the neck; may be 1 mm ( I was with 1 cm with the other oud)
see the photo: the risha did not fall...
the distance between the bridge ( inside) to the nut is shown...
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mrkmni
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another photos
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Aymara
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At the neck-body-junction, where you placed the risha in the photo?
If yes, than this is most likely the reason ... 1mm is too low ... try 2mm. Most people use 2.5-3mm to avoid buzzing.
I have 3mm on my oud, but would prefer 2mm. Too bad I can't ajust it as you.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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mrkmni
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Yes Chris at the jonction, it is easy to play though..
how to high the strings 1 mm?
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Aymara
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With the neck screw inside the bowl ... read FernandRaynaud's explanations above.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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mrkmni
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Iteresting discovery.. did not know about this before, and I am not sure I have on in my oud..
I will check; I need to remove the strings and get in my hand right?
thanks Chris and Fernand,
I am confused with this oud It is between arabic and turkish
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Aymara
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Yes, that's one of the greatest advantages of sukar ouds.
| Quote: | | I need to remove the strings and get in my hand right? |
It might be enough to loosen them ... check Fernand's explanations or ask him for further details ... he has the same oud 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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David.B
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Yes ! Change the strings !
Even with good brand new strings my Sukar buzzes. It needs a few days before it fits correctly. Also, always keep the butterfly nut screwed (better
for the health of your oud).
At last, try the way I tie the strings, it will stop untimely buzzes (when it's a mess in the peg box or when the dead part of the strings on the
bridge are too long)...
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mrkmni
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Hi David, so you also have sukar oud, I am not alone 
what do you mean by screwed? I have to loosen it a little to get some room at the jonction...
In my other oud I have your ties, also I was surprised by the arrangement of the strings in the peg box the cc goes at the extremity, should I keep
it? or rearrange them as you?
What kind of string is the better for sukar, on ebay preferably?
thanks
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Manil
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David,
You should shorten the length of your strings, I see way to much enrolled all over the peg, it can give you headache for tuning.
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David.B
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Hi mrkmni,
By keeping the screw... screwed, I mean not unscrewed, you must have some tension to keep the neck strong (otherwise the junction will hurt).
I don't know about your peg box, mine is standard. What is important (to me) it's to start to tune on the G then c, D, AA, CC (skip the CC for yours)
and at last FF : It respects the implantation of the pegs and you won't untune the AA strings, for example, if you tune G next because the AA strings
are laid on the G ones...
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by Manil | David,
You should shorten the length of your strings, I see way to much enrolled all over the peg, it can give you headache for tuning.
|
Yes, these photos are a bit old... Now I use Daniel Mari and the length is perfect ! Except for the CC which is a bit short.
mrkmni :
Try
http://ostriemusicsupplies.com/oud-strings.htm
Very good strings, except for the G.
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Aymara
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Fernand also uses the Daniel Mari strings on his Model 1, but tunes to CEEAAddggcc.
I somewhere read of people being happy with Pyramid strings on Sukar ouds too.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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mrkmni
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| Quote: Originally posted by Manil | David,
You should shorten the length of your strings, I see way to much enrolled all over the peg, it can give you headache for tuning.
|
In case they cut, he has reserve
OK for Mari Danial strings, which ones arab or turkish?
I just unscrewed the butterfly, it was easy task, I can do it without loosening any string, it is amazing. I red a notice of the maker about this tip,
i could not understand eventhough I read arabic well...
I loosened the butterfly , I could get only may be 2.3 mm , maybe with time it will bend because the oud spent almost 2 years untuned...
Thanks guys for the advise...
- Dear fernand: I am sorry, sometimes I do not read your lengthy paragraphs, they remind me the small-print contracts that come with credit
cards...but I have to say that your writing is full of wisdom- Thanks
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Aymara
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Turkish string sets are designed for ouds with a string length of 58.5cm ... for a Sukar oud you definitly need the arab set, which is designed for
string lengths between 60-62cm.
| Quote: | | ..., I could get only may be 2.3 mm , ... |
That should be a nice compromise between buzzing and playability.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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I am in central america. A noisy family was assigned the room NeXT to ours. I am playing the oud even louder to drive them away, so they ask for
another room.
Sorry if I write long messages. I try to Include some useful information.
It looks like David's pegbox arrangement is the standard way. I think it is on oud cafe as photo as well.
My tuning is not the most common way, I am used to 6 string bass and having the 5th course as EE rather than FF let's me use it easier as part of the
melody. Both 5th and 6th course are often retuned for different maqamat, nothing dangerous, CFF is OK, CEE is OK, your choice.
I never could figure out the diff between Mari Turkish and Arabic strings. Maybe you are right that it's the length.
It's strange that you cannot get more than 2.3mm height at the place where the neck and body meet. Of course if you had 1 mm it would buzz!
The neck will not bend. But if you gently pull the neck forward as you loosen the butterfly nut, it may settle a little higher. Don't leave the
butterfly nut completely loose, the neck could take an unhealthy turn ;-) you should tighten until you feel it is pulling the neck, then pull gently
on the neck and turn Back and forth, and feel the nut work against the pull of the strings, and tighten again and loosen again. You will start to feel
it better. You want to leave it just a little looser than when it is pulling the neck down. You can gradually develop the feeling. Normally you should
be able to get 1.5 mm to 5 mm string height adjustment exactly where your risha was not falling. 1.5 mm is buzzy, 5 mm is hard to play on.
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mrkmni
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OK this is my peg box with black pegs ( in the photos)
I am going to buy Mari strings with ff.
Dear Fernand, enjoy your trip in Central America...did you bring a oud with you?
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fernandraynaud
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Oh, yes, of course I have an oud! But I have not yet succeeded in driving the people in the next room away, though I'm playing louder and louder. I
mean them no harm, all I want is for them to move to another room. There ARE other rooms.
I've gone through mind-numbing practice of several maqamat early this morning, it's probably just a matter of hitting the right one, it's like a
dentist probing with a metal hook. Hijaz and Kurd and Nahawand and Saba have not done it. Then I had other more mundane things to do. Tonight I'm back
on the project.
I can't remember the names as well as 'd like to, there's one I remember practicing that has has like a Hijaz leap, but with a couple quarter tones,
and it's pretty anxiety-provoking to Western ears. To someone raised on Protestant Hymns and a little Frank Sinatra, it sounds like a minor scale when
the capstan on the eight track has a bad spot.
I am going through the OudProf DVD to find it tonight. I can probably make up something savage to "sing" along with it ...
Yesterday I was waiting at the airport, and waiting, and waiting. And finally I broke down and pulled out the oud and started playing (quietly) in the
Fox Sports Bar at the Phoenix Airport. Everybody was quite cool about it except one tough-looking guy, who was walking by on the way to his flight,
and saw the oud and spun around like he'd seen the Devil. Then he looked at the slavic-looking guy playing it, and gave me strange look. Heh,
Heh.
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David.B
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Hey Tony, I can't understand your whole post (no time to check a dictionary) but Houzam and Sikah are very painful for western ears
mrkmni, when you cross the strings in the pegbox it might buzz...
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fernandraynaud
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No need for detail, you got the general idea. Thanks for the suggestions.
But at the rate my oud is turning to compost (fumier), I may just have to leave it on their doorstep  
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Aymara
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I think, you should start to sing ... as falsely as possible. Maybe get a bottle of rum, which will help a lot
But maybe you should choose a different room yourself ... that might be the easiest solution ... except you have fun with continueing your
musical-psychological experiment
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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