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bulerias1981
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Old Oud acoustics (meaningful thread)
Hi all. After searching all 19 pages of the "Oud Projects Forum" I did not find what I'm looking for. I think this input is unique to the forum...
After I made my first oud, I was satisfied with the outcome, but became eager to set out to make the next. But one thing came to mind. I want to make
a traditional sounding oud. When I say traditional, I dont mean in that crappy kind of way. Where the sound is weak and dies immediately after the
rishi attack. Thats not what I mean. There is a traditional sound, which is punchy, lively, percussive, yet still very full and vibrant without being
"echoey" I'm talking the very earthy Arabic sound which has ample projection, with a crispy percussive sound. Believe it or not, this is hard to find
these days. I've tried a few ouds that have it.
Bassam Saba's glorious Gamil Georges oud (which he accidently sat on recently during a lesson might I add! With damage to the bowl!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqCFacwPM38
Simon Shaheens Nahat is another example and so on. There are a handful more.
So this is the kind of "traditional sound" I'm speaking of.
This is very different from the modern ouds I've played. Which are very echoey, and produce a lot of sustain. Which I also find beautiful in its own
way, but not what I'm aiming for in my next oud. It seems that when most people embark on making an oud, their objective is lots of sustain. Which is
exactly what I'm trying to avoid in my next project.
So I'd like some input from the makers out there about their experiences. What they know or what they believe will incease the likelyhood of a purely
nice traditional earthy Arabic tone.
My questions to the makers:
1) Is there a kind of sound you try to achieve when starting to make an oud?
2) What sound is it that you're trying to achieve?
3) Do you actually achieve it?
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bulerias1981
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From "Historlical Lute Construction" by Robert Lundburg. Page 30 "Day three: The Belly"
"Today we will cover the contruction of the lute belly including the barring,
belly thickness graduations, and the soundboard itself. A further look at
the changing tonal ideals that guided the developement of the lute is essential
to an understanding of the concent of the construction of the lute belly. This
developement can be characterized, in a modern analogy, as the transition from
a banjo-like tone to a calssical-guitar-like tone. The lute's precursor, al 'ud,
originally had a skin top, like a banjo. ((he must be talking about the Barbat)) The tone was presumably, also similar.
The analogy comparing the tone of the lute early in its development with that of
the banjo provides a good insight into working of the wooden belly.
The ultra thin and flexible soundboard encumbered with a relatively heavy and
close transverse barring scheme produces a strong initial tone which decays abruptly
into discernible partials and the confusion of upper harmonics. These contribute
to a large degree, to the lute's tone, which is sometimes described as sweet, melodic,
or colorful, all of which refer to the presence of the great number of these overtones.
Sustain, no matter how agreeable modern lutenists find it, was, in the contemporary
sense of the world, practically nonexistent in the Renaissance lute. However, the
need to sustain some notes, thereby adding a new dimension to changes in rhythm and
phrasing, became more and more important; so much so that the main direction of tonal
developement through the Renaissance periods and into the Baroque period was towards
increasing sustain. Some changes in the belly construction which contributed to
increased sustain will become evident during the following discussions.
Proportion was a fundamental motivating concern in all Renaissance thought. Harmonic
proportion, that is, the concept of creating a musical instrument which was in harmony with
the universe and therefore not only the outer physical relationships such as those
of string length to body size or body width to body length, but also the inner and
more active acoustic construction consisting of the belly and the bars added to it."
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bulerias1981
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So in my quest for a gorgeous traditional sound.. I find the following items from Robert Lundburg interesting..
1) That the original ouds had a top made from skin, which I think of the Barbat, but the early ouds must have had skin tops, and when replaced with
wood, I'm sure they made the tops as thin as possible to emulate the effects of a skin top. What would a skin top sound like on an oud?! Interesting
thought!
He goes on "The ultra thin and flexible soundboard encumbered with a relatively heavy and
close transverse barring scheme produces a strong initial tone which decays abruptly
into discernible partials and the confusion of upper harmonics."
Important note, 'decays abruptly'. I didnt really understand the part proceeding that comment.
I'm sure the materials used were local to those makers. If people obtained Nahats, or Georges ouds.. I'm more than
certain they did not use tight grained German spruce, or spruce from the Carpathian mountains. I heard an amazing Fadel oud, with a top made from
pine! Those woods I mentioned would be perfect for European lutes, violins, classical guitars and so on. But would pine be suitable for them? I doubt
that. So I'm talking about the authentic oud.. if trying to obtain a very pure earthy traditional sound, I think I should rule out the use of such
woods. What are your thoughts on this?
2) "Sustain, no matter how agreeable modern lutenists find it, was, in the contemporary
sense of the world, practically nonexistent in the Renaissance lute."
So I assume medieval lutes must have had a lot of this characteristic if the renaissance lute still lacked the sustain found the later stages of the
European lute.
When I met with Najib Shaheen (oud maker and brother of Simon Shaheen) for the first time, he told me that "sustain is crap", and that he hated
sustain. I was totally new to the oud and thought he was mad! Coming from a violin making background, it made no sense to me, for someone to use those
words in that particular order! Since sustain was everything I was trying to achieve!! So it took sometime for me to understand after playing many
instruments. Coming from his background where he is so deep rooted in tradition. Coming from a family of excellent musicians.. brothers, sister,
mother, uncles, father, grandfather, and cousins are/were all known musicians in the Arabic tradition. And an inspiration for all of these fine
musicians was an oud in which does not echo.
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Kelly
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Hi Jon
Interesting points you make and I think some of our experienced luthiers should be able to join in the debate. I've just a couple of observations.
Re;sound board materials Ive heard very good results from pine tops- a couple of recent Michael Moussa ouds which have a good response and attack
and certainly were not too long on sustain. Michael tells me that pine was used quite commonly in the past in Egyptian ouds.
I have also an ?Egyptian oud- not sure of age as no label- mosaic bowl with pine top which despite high action does have a good earthy tone- the
bracing is also approx 3-4 mm thick. I guess the lower the action= more sustain.
A spruce AA top I replaced recently on a Syrian oud was quite thin around 1.5mm in the centre and down to 1.2mm on the bass side
This produed a well defined projecting tone with little sustain.
Results were more by luck than judgement!
Kelly
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bulerias1981
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Kelly,
Yes, I've heard pine tops on a couple of ouds (Mohammad Fadel) and it sounded exactly "traditional" in a good way. I have a feeling a big part of the
sound I'm looking for might be in the materials. A wide grained spruce top or pine. Which my training as a violin maker still makes it hard to
believe!
The oud I made has a very thin top average thickness 1.5, with some areas 1.3 also on the bass side. My braces were about 3.5- 4mm as well. But a
regular piece of spruce was used. I'm definitely happy with its sound. But I want to continue this trial and error process.
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Sazi
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Good topic!
I agree it's difficult for a "Westerner" (speaking as one) to think that a wide grain is anything other than the mark of a cheap instrument, but over
the years I have owned a few wide grain instruments, both Turkish and Arab builds, and think the wider grain instruments, regardless of whether
they were of Turk or Arab origin sounded deeper, warmer, more traditional.
I also have a Syrian oud with wide grain in the centre and tighter grain at the edges, this has quite an interesting sound, it is a floating bridge
oud, mucho resonance, but that I believe is mainly down to the incredibly economic use of bracing on that one.
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SamirCanada
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Yes a great topic indeed.
I too long for that sound. Materials I am sure have an effect as you say but I also believe other factors come into play. I think rosettes and other
sound dampening parts play a key role in the sound that is achieved. For some reason, all the ouds I have played that had this type of sound had a
rosette.
I also did an experiment on a oud with to much sustain. I asked my wife to place her finger on the oud at various place while I was playing to see the
effect and just beside the bridge I found that it would calm down the sound and it was much rounder. Perhaps the same can be achieved with bracing.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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bulerias1981
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Rosettes have the ability to make an oud more nasely, and less direct. But I still have heard ouds with this traditional sound and no rosette.
I also did similar experiements, Samir. Such as putting a small clamp on the bridge and it changes the sound considerably.
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jdowning
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The main purpose of the 'sound hole' is not only to vent the bowl cavity so that the sound board can vibrate freely but to tune the oscillating air
mass of the bowl cavity in order to enhance the bass response (the Helmholz Effect - I reported on trials that demonstrated this effect in the 'Old
Oud' topic on this forum).
Sustain - i.e. the duration of sound - on a lute or oud is directly related to string vibration - this being the source of the sound generated (no
string vibration = no sound) - the sound board/bowl configuration being analogous to a pick up/amplifier combination in an electric guitar. Sustain
may be undesirable in that it can result in inharmonic clashes (a.k.a. noise) if a string is allowed to sound, undamped - not a problem with stopped
strings as it can be for strings sounded 'open'. Historically this became more of a concern for lutes with multiple basses that were played open (like
a harp). Marin Mersenne wrote in the first part of the 17th C that the sound of the gut string of the 10th course of his lute had a sustain of 20
seconds (compare that to the performance of a modern metal overspun string!).
However, as no modern gut string can match the performance of Mersenne's bass string perhaps the solution might be for oud players to use all gut (or
silk) basses for an 'authentic' oud sound - and get rid of those 'brassy', metalic sounding nylon/metal overspun strings.
On the other hand - regardless of the strings used and questions of sustain - any viable musical instrument, past or present, must be resonant with
good sound projection and loudness. Even as early as the 10th C the Ikhwan al-Safa defining an oud as an instrument with a wooden (not skin) sound
board say that the sound board "should be of thin, hard and light wood such as will resound when the oud is played".
The modern day luthier generally has little choice but to purchase sound boards from luthier suppliers already selected and cut to size. The sound
boards seem to be graded more on cosmetic appearance - fine regular straight grain, quarter sawn, clear of any stain or discolouration etc. - than on
potential acoustical performance. The sound boards are usually supplied in two 'match booked' pieces.
Historically both lutes and ouds might have sound boards made up from four or five mis- matching pieces with 'wide' grain, grain irregularities and
other 'imperfections' (according to modern opinion).
The attached research paper from FoMRHI by the late Remi Gug may be of interest. Gug suggests that the early luthiers selected their sound board
material from logs, in the forest, according to the acoustic characteristics of the wood - not all trees of a particular species being equal in this
respect.
Attachment: Gug article.pdf (478kB)
This file has been downloaded 393 times
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bulerias1981
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jdowning thank you for your input.
Definitely the kind of sound we are searching for (not all of us as some perfer an "echoey" oud) is out there already right now, but in few numbers.
This is in the absence of gut or silk strings
I didn't mention strings. I have yet to try silk strings on an oud. Making silk strings is something I will get around to at some point for my own
curiosity/data collection purposes. I've tried a Mansour oud belonging to Mustafa Said strung with gut strings, which I felt left something to be
desired (maybe they were old) However, I've had luck with the following string combination. (if you tune C, F, A, D, G, C)
From Labella ou80 (not ou80a) use wound strings only
C- Silver-Plated Wound on Nylon .042 (1x)
F- Silver-Plated Wound on Nylon .034
A- Silver-Plated Wound on Nylon .030
D- Silver-Plated Wound on Nylon .025
From D'addario
G- plain nylon .28
C- plain nylon .24
You'd get a radically different sound if you use Kurshner strings as an example, which would be a good match for modern ouds like Fadi Matta or loud
Iraqi ouds. This would be very "echoey"
I am searching for a source of wide grain soundboards at the moment as well.
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jdowning
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Plain nylon and metal overspun strings on nylon filament did not become generally available until the second half of the 20th C. From the 19th C to
the mid 20th C (the earliest of the surviving ouds - sadly) an oud would have had gut trebles and metal overspun on silk filament basses. Indeed, when
living and working in Cairo in the early 1960's this type of string was still being offered for sale.
Prior to the 19th C plain gut or silk strings would have been the norm.
Your less than satisfactory experience with modern gut strings is not surprising - likely due, not to the age of the strings, but expectations based
upon familiarity with modern nylon strings. The sound that you will get from all gut stringing will be quite different as well as requiring lower
tensions than nylon.
The term 'traditional' is often used with reference to ouds but does this mean, therefore, that 'tradition' - in the modern perception and sense -
only extends back as far as 1950?!
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bulerias1981
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I am more than willing to try gut trebles, and metal overspun with silk. Its only a matter of availability. I am also fine with tuning lower than 440
to best suit the strings for their optimal performence.
I understand the word 'traditional' is very subjective and vague. The example of a sound in which some are looking for would be found at the top of
this thread on my first post of the Gamil Georges oud belonging to Bassam Saba, which is very different in tone compared to other more modern ouds all
strung with modern strings.
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Kelly
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Re Source of pine: try old floor boards and antique pine dressers/cabinets! as long as grain reasonabley straight and no knots (or nails)
I know some source old piano soundboards too.
Happy Hunting
Kelly
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Kelly
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Re Source of pine: try old floor boards and antique pine dressers/cabinets! as long as grain reasonabley straight and no knots (or nails)
I know some source old piano soundboards too.
Happy Hunting
Kelly
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bulerias1981
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There are actually tone wood sources.
This one is in Turkey. It might be a great example of the kind of wood needed. This is wide grain
http://www.caucasianspruce.com/?page=products&action=product_de...
I contacted this supplier and they havent got back to me yet (been a couple of weeks). Maybe eventually they'll respond.
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Sazi
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There are a few suppliers closer to you, such as L.M.I. and Stewmac, but the prices are higher and they don't seem to carry the "lower" grades where
you would find wider grain.
Also worth remembering, for a warm sound you can go for a Cedar top, with the added advantage that the oud sound matures in a couple of months rather
than a couple of years.
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jdowning
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Piano makers have always preferred spruce sound boards, not pine, which they consider to be too 'soft' and 'absorb' the sound vibrations - so old
piano sound boards are unlikely to be a source of pine. Likewise none of the well known luthier suppliers stock pine sound board material to my
knowledge (pine and spruce are, of course, different woods).
True Fir species (Abies) were also used by the old lute/oud makers as well as Cedar of Lebanon (but not the type of Cedar offered luthier suppliers
these days).
I suppose that it all depends upon what is meant by 'wide' or 'narrow' grain but probably this does not make much of a difference - if any -
acoustically?
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bulerias1981
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I know about LMI and Stew Mac, but they seem to carry the usual narrow grain spruce from North America and/or Europe. At the moment I'm trying to
experiment with otherwise.
The spruce that supplier in Turkey sells is labeled "oriental spruce". Being suspicious of the word 'oriental' at all times, I wonder where this wood
is from. I'm assuming its from Turkey. The wide grain they have priced as the cheapest.
Interesting how all this seems subjective. Maybe the entire tonewood market is a scam with inflated prices based on tightness and straightness of
grain as being more desireable. Just like buying a curly maple back for violin. Which can go from $125-$400!! Because its "beautiful", which I agree.
But the truth is, the curls in the maple are actually a defect that occurs during the growth of the wood and make it harder to work with. Anyway, this
is why I prefer to fall my own lumber. But if you don't have a backup of properly seasoned wood, what can you do?
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Abusaid
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Hi John,
I have heard the old middle eastern tone that you are looking for, in some ouds made by Mr. Nazih Ghadban, and maybe a little in the ouds made by Mr.
Fathi Amin or his son Sayed. Have you tried those ouds?
Best regards,
Eduardo Lahsen
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bulerias1981
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Eduardo,
I have tried the ouds of Ghadban, and some vary. But none of which I tried really have this sound in a pure way. Also, the same goes for Fathi Amin.
In fact, Fathi Amin ouds are very far from this.
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bulerias1981
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actually, just realized I confused Fathi Amin with a different modern Egyptian maker. I've never tried an oud from Fathi Amin. A friend of mine has
one, I guess I should sometime soon.
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bulerias1981
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I found spruce linings installed at the edge of the bowl where the bowl meets the face on an old Egyptian oud. (Like a violin, viola and cello)
Anyone else in their travels ever see this?
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jdowning
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Linings are structurally unnecessary and not found on old lutes (or ouds?). Has this old Egyptian lute been restored at the hands of a violin or
guitar maker where these linings are 'de rigeur'?
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bulerias1981
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Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  | | Linings are structurally unnecessary and not found on old lutes (or ouds?). Has this old Egyptian lute been restored at the hands of a violin or
guitar maker where these linings are 'de rigeur'? |
No, but by someone who knows very well how to achieve old oud acoustics, as I mentioned above. (Najib Shaheen)
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jdowning
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Interested to know more about the linings. How old is the Egyptian oud and are the linings original or been added at a later date (by Najib Shaheen?)
If the linings were added at a later date was there a structural reason for this - for example to compensate for loss of material due to over-thinning
of the last rib at the edge of the bowl? With the linings glued to the ribs what is the total 'wall' thickness of the glue joint around the edge of
the bowl? How are the ends of the braces fitted to the liners - 'cut outs' or butting against the liner? Do you have any images that you can post?
Thanks
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