Jonathan
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Help me identify this oud
I hope that you guys can help me identify this oud. It belongs to my brother, who lives in another state, so I do not have the oud with me, just
these pictures. The pictures are almost enough to make you tear your hair out. At one time, I remember this as being a beautiful oud. I never
played it, because I could not play oud when this instrument was still in one piece. I remember that it was extremely light. It has been essentially
destroyed, as you can see. Don't ask. I still am crazy about the birds on the fingerboard.
Can anybody tell me who the luthier is? Forget about the oval label with the picture of the oud--that is Sam Varjabedian, my grandfather, whom I am
guessing just repaired the oud. The label that I am more interested in is the one in Armenian and Arabic (Ottoman?) script. Sadly, it is in pieces.
My Armenian is terrible, but I can see:
ARTI and then, on the next line, Sta. . .
I am guessing that it was made in Stamboul (aka Istanbul), and perhaps the luthier's first name was Artin, but I am guessing. Anybody have any
ideas. I wish I could get you some better pictures, but for now, this is all I have.
Thanks a lot
Jonathan
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Elie Riachi
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Sad. I like the fingerboard a lot. I am sure the oud can be restored.
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Ronny Andersson
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Jonathan, It might be that your oud is made by the same makers as mine.
Take look at the fingerboard and the label and let me know what you think.
My own oud is made by Amasyali Mumjuzadeh Mehmet Tevfik of Istanbul.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Ronny Andersson
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label.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Jonathan
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My gut feeling, Ronny, is that they are not made by the same maker, but I certainly do love the workmanship on your example. The designs are very
similar, but it seems to me that certain designs, particularly where birds are involved, just show up again and again in just about the exact same
form. They seem to have all come from a common source, but I wonder what that source is. In fact, I mentioned something similar to this in regards
to rosettes a few weeks ago. There is a rosette pattern with a bird surrounded by leaves that shows up in tons of old ouds, including those made in
Turkey, the Arab world, even the US--and, they were not all made by the same guy.
That's off the point, I guess, but I thought I would throw it in there.
I guess the other reason that I think that they are made by different luthiers is that I believe that an Armenian luthier made mine. This is more
than just ethnocentric pride on my part. The original label, at least in part, is in Armenian. I just doubt that a non-Armenian would do this, but I
could be wrong. Also, when it came time for repairs, it was taken to another Armenian luthier. So, I am guessing that oud was initially purchased in
Istanbul, and came to the US early in the century. The Varjabedian label dates from pre-1944, but clearly, the oud is older than that.
I really appreciate your input. I wish that some of the names and important information on our earlier oud-makers had been preserved. I look at an
oud like this, and just imagine another world, another time and place. In the end, it gets frustrating, because the details will almost certainly
remain obscure. I hope that I am wrong.
Thanks again.
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spyrosc
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Oud maker
Jonathan,
I'm trying to read the name on the oud.
The maker is definitely an Armenian. He is not the same as Ronny's oud, who is a Turk.
The first name of this Armenian oud maker is ARTIN as you read. His last name ends in:
...IKIAN
I'm still trying to get the rest of the last name.
Spyros C.
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spyrosc
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Oud maker
Last name looks like:
ABIKIAN or ATIKIAN I believe.
The birds look very much like my Bedrosian (another Armenian oud maker) so that agrees.
Still working on it
Spyros C.
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Jonathan
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I can't thank you enough. I have never heard of the guy, but that doesn't mean much. He made a nice oud, and I would love to learn more
about him. The Bedrossian was from Lebanon, right? I am pretty sure that this oud is from Turkey.
I don't want to get off on some big discussion on this, but the image of a bird surrounding by a scrolling vine has a longstanding history in
Armenian art. It is full of a lot of religous symbolism, and can be seen in Armenian art from as early as the first millenium.
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Jonathan
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Elie--you really think it could be restored?
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Walidk
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The name reads Artin Atikian if you look closely at the artistic (arabic) round writing at the back (butt) of the oud.
Lovely instrumnent..
Walid.
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Jonathan
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Thanks a lot Walidk. I was hoping somebody could read that. Now, here's my question. What should I do with it? I am no expert on ouds, but is
it possible to restore this oud. Some of the ribs are missing, and the ribs that are there are beautiful, but thin and light. I am afraid that if I
even considered having it restored, the whole thing would be a mess. Also, what should I save? The face is shot, obviously, although the rosettes
are nice. If anybody has any ideas, I would appreciate them.
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Elie Riachi
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Elie--you really think it could be restored? |
Hi Jonathan,
I think so. The soundboard and the missing ribs could be replicated. Save the perfeling, it looks like it is in a good shape. Also you could even
reuse the braces. The fingerboard, the beard, pick gaurd, the little carved Arabic button at the end, the bridge and roses can be saved. Make sure
that you take accurate measurements on all the existing parts and their locations before you start the restoration process. Obviously, a new peg box
and pegs will have to be made.
You might want to check with Dr. Oud, Jameel and the other oud makers for advice or an estimate.
Regards,
Elie
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Andy
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Jonathan about the top, I recall an oud that I saw and heard last year with a repaired top. The entire top was not replaced but patched and repaired,
not the best looking oud because of the contrast in color but luthiers sould have various aged material around the shop for just such repairs. It may
just help in preseving the beautiful sound and original sound board. About the country of origin, I feel that if the oud was made in Turkey the label
would reflect it in the script, since the script is in Arabic I would guess that it was made in an Arabic speaking country. The birds are not just
birds they are doves.
Best Regards
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Jonathan
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You're right, Andy. They definitely are doves. A minor point, but symbolically very important.
I am just about certain it is from Istanbul. I wish I could date it, but thus far no luck. The presence of the Ottoman script does not indicate
pre-Ataturk, I am sure, because I know of ouds from Turkey from the late 1920s that still use the Ottoman script. Or, maybe I am mistaken and it is
Arabic. There is a difference between the two scripts, right? I assume so, but I am sure that others out there know more than me on this.
I appreciate the input on the soundboard. I am inclined to get the oud repaired/restored. I have never heard of this luthier before, and I guess
that is one of the things that really draws me to it. It is a beautiful instrument, very high quality, and for all I know, it could be the only one
around by this luthier. It may not be valuable, but with things like this, I almost think we owe it to the luthier to preserve their legacy. I just
want to be sure I can somehow preserve the character of the oud, and not simply have a new oud with some old parts.
Thanks again, Elie. A repair/restoration is completely beyond my abilities. But, I will start to think about asking around with different luthiers
to see if it is possible. There is a peg box, in pieces, that I am guessing is beyond repair. I will try to get a photo of it posted shortly.
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | I feel that if the oud was made in Turkey the label would reflect it in the script, since the script is in Arabic I would guess that it was made in an
Arabic speaking country. The birds are not just birds they are doves.
Best Regards |
Until 1928, the Turkish was written with Ottoman Turkish script (version of Arabic).
My own Turkish oud was made 1927.
Best wishes
Ronny
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spyrosc
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Arabic and Turkish
There would be a difference between Turkish and Arabic in words but hardly in names. The name ARTIN ATIKIAN is read in script in the round tail cover
plate. The script could be either.
The inside label is not fully visible to me, but right-to-left in (Arabic alphabet) script it says "ARTIN" again and some illegible (to me)
Armenian underneath it.
From left-to-right there is a part of a word in script that says "..OULANI" or, if it is a Turkish word "..VLANI". It is probably
a Turkish word.
Underneath there is the tail end of an address, it could be "..MROU 30" definitely "..ROU 30".
Underneath that there is Armenian script that repeats "ARTIN" (remember Armenian is left-to-right like Greek and Latin but Arabic/Turkish is
right-to-left, that's why the left side in Armenian says what the right side days in Arabic/Turkish script).
If I could get a good picture of the right side of teh label I could tell you more.
Spyros C.
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Jonathan
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OK, this is not a great shot either, but it is the best I have. I kicked up the contrast a bit, too.
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spyrosc
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Label
It looks like it says : "Istanbul" on the second line (right side). So it definitely is a Turkish oud, as I thought earlier.
Since it is in Arabic script, as Ronny pointed out, it could be as late as 1928 or maybe even a bit later.
I'll work on the Armenian script, although it's not clear.
Spyros C.
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Jonathan
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I am meeting somebody in a couple of weeks that might have some biographical info on this luthier. Apparently, he is listed in some type of Turkish
"Ansycopedia" that he has. I will post whatever info I get. Thanks again for everything.
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wfspark
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Varjabedian ouds
Jonathan. Is the Varjabedian oud company still in existance? By the way, this talk of vintage ouds is verry interesting. I've always wondered
about old instruments, and the fact that we still have some of the treasures of the past is amazing. Now that we are on the subject of vintage
instruments, would anyone know where Udi Rant's oud might be? I am a real fan of Udi Rant, and since his oud was a Manol, I would think one would
wonder where it might be. Once again Jonathan, nice oud. The fact that it is still in existance is a miricle. It may be dammaged, but with tender
care, I'm sure it can be restored.
William F. Sparks
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Jonathan
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Thanks, William, for the feedback. Sam Varjabedian died in 1963, and his last oud was made that year. This was just a man that loved the music, and
the instrument, and made these when he could. I detailed what I know of his ouds on my website, http://www.varjouds.com. If anybody knows the whereabouts of any of his ouds, I would desperately love to purchase it, regardless of condition.
The four on the website I have tracked down and purchased over the past 8 years or so. I have seen another 10. The earliest I have seen was from the
mid-1920s. I guess it goes without saying that I would be willing to pay a more than fair price for his ouds.
I, too, love Hrant, and hope that somebody can answer your question. In talking with oudists and those who came in contact with him, though, I think
we have to realize that at one time or another, Hrant had owned a lot of ouds. I know he also played Karibyan ouds. Also, he bought a lot of ouds,
and sold them shortly afterwards to people that saw him play, and simply wanted his oud. At least, this is what I have been told. So, there are a
lot of people that say they have one of Hrant's ouds, and they are actually telling the truth. I hope somebody can give us a better answer,
because I am in no way qualified to. Was there, in fact, one favorite oud of Hrant's? And, who made the oud on the cover of that Traditional
Crossroads cd titled simply Udi Hrant? William, I am guessing we should have made this a separate thread, but we will see what happens. Thanks
again.
Jonathan Varjabedian
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Jonathan
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Inscription at base
OK, you are probably sick of this one, but I need one last bit of help on it. I finally got the oud in my posession, and was able to inspect it a bit
more, and found this inscription at the base of the oud. It's in Armenian, but my ability to read Armenian is pretty weak. It looks to be neither
Atikian's writing, nor Varjabedian's. The first word may be the first name Hagop, but I am not sure. The second word is a last name, it seems to be
S---t-ian. Below that, 466 Michigan Avenue, then 1931, then something else. This Michigan Avenue would probably be the one in the Detroit area
(because that is where Varjabedian was), and not the one in Chicago. Can anybody make out the name? Thanks a lot.
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maran
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Hagop Saatjian.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Maran. It sort of seemed like that to me too--it just was a name I had never heard of before. Perhaps he carried out some repairs on the
oud. Thanks to you all for all of your help.
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Jonathan
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I spent last weekend scurrying around the house looking for the rest of the fragments to the above oud, and found the missing third of the above
label. You can see the left and right sides of the label in the pictures from the previous posts. I can't read the Arabic/Ottoman script. I am
guessing that it is just his full name: Artin Atikyan. If there is anything else there, though, please let me know. Thanks a lot.
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