crmdgn
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 11-3-2014
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Interested in learning the oud -- where to start?
I'm a clawhammer banjo player interested in learning the oud. I have the following general questions:
- How difficult is the oud relative to the banjo (i.e., has anyone else made this switch)?
- What should I expect to pay for a starter oud? (So far the lowest I've seen on eBay and Amazon is $300 or more, which is somewhat higher than the
price for a starter banjo and substantially more than the price for a starter guitar; is that typical?)
- What should I look for in a starter oud?
Lastly, a geographically specific question: how do people in the US come by their instruments? I could order from Mid-East.com, but I'm not crazy
about the idea of ordering online when I don't really know what I'm getting; I'd much prefer to visit a shop if possible. Any suggestions for someone
in the northeastern US (specifically New England)?
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bulerias1981
Oud Junkie
Posts: 770
Registered: 4-26-2009
Location: Beacon, NY
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Mood: John Vergara Luthier Lord of the Strings instrument making and repair
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Hi, I just welcomed someone else on the forum to the world of oud and now I will welcome you.
To answer your question, banjo is very different from the oud. All stringed instruments have some things in common, but that doesn't mean you won't be
able to pick it up quickly, depends on your musical aptitude, musicality and the method you follow.
I can answer your question about what to expect in a starter oud like what you described for $300.. Expect a disaster. Tuning pegs that are stick so
bad you'll need pliers, or they slip. So tuning will be a problem.. Expect cracks to appear, expect high action and so on. It is rare to get a great
oud in America or in Europe for that price that is good quality. I'm also a maker, and it takes about 200-250 hours to make an oud (same as violin).
Nothing that takes 250 hours that sells for $300 can be good quality. It's impossible. That's like $1.20 cents an hour for labor. So you cannot expect
much. You can take a chance, but I gave you somewhat of a warning. Many people on here have taken their chances, only to get a clunker and if they
really want to learn they have to spend additional money. I have some instruments on my website, that I didn't make, which are definitely suitable for
beginners. I've refurbished some cheaper ouds, fixing structural issues, and changing the pegs, and the nut, and sometimes fingerboard and strings to
make it play, tune and sound good. You can have a look at that. Also, I teach skype lessons online should you need some good direction on how to get
started when you have an instrument. Thank you and good luck you you!
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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- How difficult is the oud relative to the banjo (i.e., has anyone else made this switch)?
I play clawhammer banjo and oud. There are more differences than similarities and I started on fretless banjo. Both have a short sustain. Both use
strings so the basic principles of tension, diameter and length of string vis a vis musical pitch apply to both. That's about it. More to the point,
the music is completely different. Equally to the point, what is difficult and what is easy depends on the ability of the player and on how much
they have listened and been steeped in the music they wish to play. If you've been listening to Arabic music for 20 years and understand the maqam
system already then learning oud will be a lot easier. You have to learn technique. But if you have to get accustomed to the music, that takes some
years. It's very much the same with clawhammer banjo. You've got to get familiar with the 19th century players and the musical culture and the
repertoire and the vocal music too. Without that it's just a bunch of bumdiity with no context.
- What should I expect to pay for a starter oud? (So far the lowest I've seen on eBay and Amazon is $300 or more, which is somewhat higher than
the price for a starter banjo and substantially more than the price for a starter guitar; is that typical?)
As you know, the most basic and even the most funky banjos respond reasonably well to the clawhammer technique. But the banjo is like a computer. It's
essentially a system of cooperative components. An oud is not like that at all. WIth an oud you can't switch heads, bridges, tailpieces, tone rings,
etc, and in 10 minutes have a substantial improvement in sound like you can with a banjo. There is no such thing as a "starter oud". There are musical
instruments on the one hand, and Furniture With Strings on the other hand. This is particularly true for Arabic oud. Sandi (Cankaya Music) in Ankara
makes some relatively inexpensive ouds that are good for Turkish/Armenian/Greek music and are good value, but you are still talking about a good deal
more than $300. Sometimes you can find $300 ouds that were good when new but need $1000 worth of repair. Much better to save your money and get
something that needs no work. Then if you later decide that oud is not for you after all, you can sell it for the same price you paid.
- What should I look for in a starter oud?
unhappiness and frustration.
I'd much prefer to visit a shop if possible. Any suggestions for someone in the northeastern US (specifically New England)?
Historically Belmont and Watertown Massachusetts have been oud central. Now it is more spread out. Unique Strings in Belmont might have a basic
refurbished oud at a price that is agreeable to you. Further south, just north of NYC, in Beacon NY is John Vergara's shop, Lord Of The Strings. John
is "bulerias 1981" who responded to your message. You can try out his less expensive refurbished ouds. And you can try the better ones and see what is
possible.
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Lysander
Oud Junkie
Posts: 410
Registered: 7-26-2013
Location: London, UK
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I'll qualify Jody's point here. I was, very generously, given what I assume is a student or "starter oud" which has been estimated at about $600. I
have made a couple of threads about it here. After about eight months of playing, I had to get the fingerboard totally replaced since the luthier had
used an inferior soft wood for it. The indentations in the wood caused by constant playing made the instrument unplayable. So yes, you could
get a cheaper oud but in the long run you may have to end up paying more. Fortunately I found a great luthier who did the whole thing quickly and for
a very reasonable price, others might not have been so lucky.
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crmdgn
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 11-3-2014
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Thanks very much for the responses -- super helpful and informative. In particular, the banjo/computer analogy helped a lot.
So, is it professional-grade ouds or nothing? What do oud students play in the more oudful parts of the world?
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crmdgn
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 11-3-2014
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PS. Just looked up "maqam" after Jody mentioned it.... That's pretty overwhelming if you're used to Western musical theory. And I don't even mean that
I have a theory background, which I don't, just that I think of music in terms of scales and so forth. This maqam business... Whoa.
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crmdgn
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 11-3-2014
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PPS. Just looked up "maqam" on Google Translate, and assuming I spelled it right, Google says that the same word also means "status," "site,"
"locality," and "shrine". Is that right? I spelled it مقام.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Sukar ouds are mid-grade to professional and can often be found more reasonably priced. But unlike guitars, ouds are not easy to mass-produce and
thus far no one makes good instruments for beginners. Good ouds hold their value, I would recommend buying a good instrument if you can and selling
it if you find it not to your liking.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Syrian-Oud-Lute-Professional-made-By-Ibrahi...
If you buy a $300 oud, you are throwing that money away—if you buy a better oud, your money has just changed form, dig?
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Lysander
Oud Junkie
Posts: 410
Registered: 7-26-2013
Location: London, UK
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Quote: Originally posted by crmdgn  | | PS. Just looked up "maqam" after Jody mentioned it.... That's pretty overwhelming if you're used to Western musical theory. And I don't even mean that
I have a theory background, which I don't, just that I think of music in terms of scales and so forth. This maqam business... Whoa.
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I know, my mind was blown when the concept of maqams was introduced to me. But after you have acclimatised yourself to the concept it does get easier,
I promise.
Even though there are tonnes of maqams, some are used way more frequently than others. For instance, in Turkish music Nihavent [arabic - Nahawand] and
Hicaz [Arabic - Hijaz] makams are the most widely used [in terms of pieces written], closely followed by Rast and Huzzam.
I would say the very best site for getting into maqams is David Parfitt's excellent site here:
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/theory.html
Which not only gives you a list of maqams and their notation but their positions on the oud. I also recommend getting Cameron Powers' book Arabic
Musical Scales which is an excellent and simple starter intro and teaches the basics by intervallic structure [i.e. the distance between notes] rather
than just notation.
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crmdgn
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 11-3-2014
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OK, now you've got me curious: this is exactly the sort of thing that fascinates me. What specifically makes ouds hard to mass-produce? I can think of
a few possibilities:
- the body shape (complex contours; large body volume which probably requires complex internal support)
- the body construction (the strips of contrasting wood)
- The angle of the pegbox to the neck (lots of string tension at the bend, I'm guessing, so that neck has to be strong)
More generally, can anyone recommend a good book (in English) about the history and construction of the oud?
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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Richard Hankey's book will tell you a lot.
http://www.cafepress.com/droudpress.29867421
So will exploring this forum in which a good number of luthiers show their work in progress. Aoud/Oud/Ud all means the same thing: it means "wood". A
good luthier is attuned to wood. Read Fritz's latest post about the maple in the corner in this thread:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=15253&p...
A good luthier (the word is derived from "lute" which is derived from "oud") will take somewhat different steps according to the wood being used. This
has aesthetic and sonic effects. Forget about ouds for a minute and consider guitars and mass production. Every now and then a factory like Yamaha
(for instance) will turn out a good guitar by a lucky accident. Now consider the the skilled individual maker. Every now and then a *bad * guitar will
come from such a workshop by an unlucky accident. It's a similar situation with ouds, but there are other factors as well. these factors are economic,
social, the materials used, the tools used, training, personal involvement in the work, to name a few.
| Quote: Originally posted by crmdgn | OK, now you've got me curious: this is exactly the sort of thing that fascinates me. What specifically makes ouds hard to mass-produce? I can think of
a few possibilities:
- the body shape (complex contours; large body volume which probably requires complex internal support)
- the body construction (the strips of contrasting wood)
- The angle of the pegbox to the neck (lots of string tension at the bend, I'm guessing, so that neck has to be strong)
More generally, can anyone recommend a good book (in English) about the history and construction of the oud? |
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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It's not that you couldn't mass-produce ouds, it's just a lot more difficult than guitars and other similar instruments; guitars now are made almost
entirely by CNC machines—computer-controlled robots. The bowl and the pegbox construction are labor-intensive and don't lend themselves to any easy
production method.
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