franck leriche
Oud Junkie
Posts: 175
Registered: 5-18-2011
Location: France
Member Is Offline
|
|
Refined oud tuning
I tried recently a more refined way to tune my oud.
Recently i've been playing a lot this tuning:
D A E B F# D
Tuning it with a electronic tuner is a disaster to my hear.
When i tuned from the top in forth by ear the result was not probing too.
Playing rast from D doesn't fit with the harmonics generated by the tempered F#
So i had the idea to start from the bass D and tune the F# strings with the F# harmonic that can be heard from the D bass.
It's easy to tune the first two treble strings with the harmonics generated by the D basss
But when I had a problem when tuning the other string.
When tuning by hear in descending forth from a i ended with a dissonant interval between B and F#.
So I tried to tune the B like a very high forth from natural F# and to tune E in between the resulting B and the A that i tuned accordingly to the D
bass harmonics.
At the beginning i found it a bit weird, but when i started playing taksims and compositions, i was very surprised by the beauty of the tuning.
The internet is very low theses days because of the bad weather here so i can't upload a file for you to hear it, but i' ll try ASAP.
I had the same issue with arabic tuning, i never liked the major third between F and A...
Anyone tried it before?
|
|
|
franck leriche
Oud Junkie
Posts: 175
Registered: 5-18-2011
Location: France
Member Is Offline
|
|
Eventually i tried to use the same 5 courses with the bass tune in B( cinuçen tanrikorur akort) the result is stunning , now i hear all those forth
as natural... maybe with all the surrounding tempered music , my hear as been accustomed to the tempered forth.
Compared to other instruments who don't have this issue because of the way they are build( ney, kemence, tanbur) i often was a bit disappointed
regarding the tuning when i listened to oud players.
|
|
|
juju
Oud Junkie
Posts: 125
Registered: 11-13-2011
Location: Paris - France
Member Is Offline
|
|
Very interesting topic !
It would be interesting to compare the different methods used by forum members to tune their oud.
For arabic tuning, I was told that it's common to use the G as a starting note then you try to tune other notes with perfect intervals.
In my case I must admit that I have difficulties to hear the difference between "perfect fourths" and "equal tempered fourths"... I still use an
electronic tuner to help me (it's also easier on stage) but I'm very interested in learning other ways to tune the oud.
|
|
|
franck leriche
Oud Junkie
Posts: 175
Registered: 5-18-2011
Location: France
Member Is Offline
|
|
There are already a few topics on this subject, but i found interesting to open a new one because of a different approach.
Maybe the tuning for arabic music maybe a bit different because as far as i can hear the natural third is not used so much. Even playing ajam on rast
seems to have a slightly higher third.
In turkish classic music segah is definitely the natural third of rast, as eviç is the perfect fith of segah.
I was looking for lute tuning on the web and found different pages on this subject.
Lute players have made many research on this subject and they are plenty of different possibilities.
The ear is very sensitive and it always try to find a balance. So if you use an electronic tuner all the time( wich is based on tempered tuning) your
ear will alway consider it as true.
So it will be very difficult to hear precisely the difference between tempered and non tempered intervals.
As long as i used a tuner i didn't try to work on this subject.
But shortly after i stopped using it, the question started...
Before i switch to my new tuning i wasn't happy with the color of some modulations from the main makam, they sounded to much "westernized" to my hear.
And some of the didn't made sense to me.
Also it was difficult to find the right place on the fingerboard for some notes.
With the new tuning it's much more easier, and modulations are easier to achieve.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
Although it is obviously higher than any of the Arabic placements of Segah/Sikah (which to my ear differ according to maqam and geographical region)
I hear the Turkish placement of Segah as slightly below the natural third. I'm assuming we both mean the same thing by "natural third". I mean the
interval between the fourth and fifth harmonic of the overtone series.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by juju  | Very interesting topic !
It would be interesting to compare the different methods used by forum members to tune their oud.
For arabic tuning, I was told that it's common to use the G as a starting note then you try to tune other notes with perfect intervals.
In my case I must admit that I have difficulties to hear the difference between "perfect fourths" and "equal tempered fourths"... I still use an
electronic tuner to help me (it's also easier on stage) but I'm very interested in learning other ways to tune the oud. |
The difference between a "pure" fourth and an Equal Tempered fourth is less than 2¢ (they're all "perfect fourths", which is a musical term, not a
tuning term).
100 cents is an (ET) half step, so you are talking about a difference that is generally considered inaudible when considering just a pair of pitches.
The problem comes about when you add up the tuning discrepancies across several sets of fourths: if you started with the 1st course, by the time you
got to the 4th course you would be almost 8¢ off, which is definitely noticeable.
On stage, I often use an electronic tuner for quick, rough tuning (since it is often difficult to hear), but I make fine adjustments to compensate for
the ET intervals, and always check the unison pairs by ear and adjust the final tuning by ear.
For what it's worth, if you are comparing with a good electronic tuner:
1st: tune the tiniest bit lower than the tuner
2nd: (reference) match the tuner
3rd: tune the tiniest bit higher than the tuner
4th: tune a tiny bit higher than the tuner
5th: tune a tiny bit lower than the tuner
6th: play the 3rd harmonic (at the neck-body joint) and tune exactly to the tuner
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
With regard to Turkish segah: from what I recall, there are disagreements among Turkish sources as to the theoretical tuning of this interval. Some
do suggest that it is the pure 5:4 major third, while others suggest that it is slightly lower. However, with regard to practicing musicians, it
seems to be pretty consistently played slightly lower than the 5:4 third. It's pretty close, though—close enough that many Arab versions of Turkish
pieces will translate rast as ‘ajam.
The traditional Arabic ‘ajam has the 5:4 third, though of course there are many recordings from the 60s onward that use equal-tempered keyboards
etc. where it is much higher. When ‘ajam is transposed to C, you do hear some people play the third higher—likely because they are familiar with
the finger position of that note from Kurd or Hijaz on A or Nahawand on D. But these are somewhat modern deviations, not the "real" third of ‘ajam.
|
|
|
chaldo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 295
Registered: 2-13-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: archaic mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka |
The traditional Arabic ‘ajam has the 5:4 third, though of course there are many recordings from the 60s onward that use equal-tempered keyboards
etc. where it is much higher. When ‘ajam is transposed to C, you do hear some people play the third higher—likely because they are familiar with
the finger position of that note from Kurd or Hijaz on A or Nahawand on D. But these are somewhat modern deviations, not the "real" third of ‘ajam.
|
Hi Brian, thanks for your contribution. I am interested in traditional Arabic tuning and how maqam are played and which notes differ from the
equal-tempered keyboards... can you suggest me a book or a good source of info on the subject? thanks
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
That's a complex subject, Chaldo. There are a whole lot of considerations:
• a general understanding of "just" intonations is helpful. There are a number of books and websites on the topic. This gives you a point of
reference for what standard intervals are. The main systems to understand are "3-limit" aka "Pythagorean" and "5-limit". 3-limit is based entirely
on relationships between fundamentals, octaves and 5ths (1:1, 2:1, 3:1), while 5-limit is based on relationships between fundamentals, octaves, 5ths
and 3rds (1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 5:1). This is a kind of natural reference but doesn't address the particulars of Arabic intonation. This is partly helpful
because it illustrates that ET is only even an approximation of the pitches of Western music. One of the difficulties in saying things like "the
third of Ajam is lower than the Western third in major" is that it's not clear what "the Western third" is supposed to mean—the ET one or the one
people sing? My favorite book on this subject is "Harmonic Experience" by W.A. Mathieu, but it is probably overkill for most.
• it's important to understand that the actual intonation of intervals in a culture is arbitrary, so aural exposure is the only way to learn and
internalize the sound of the tuning.
• There isn't a single "real" Arabic intonation—it is and has been different in different geographic areas and at different points in time. The
idea of a single correct intonation, while beloved by theorists, is something of a myth. At best, it is a prescriptive attempt to define the
"correct" approach as that of a particular time and place and deny that music and culture change and evolve.
The most important resources aren't books, but recordings. While somewhat useful, theoretical information isn't really helpful in most cases.
Also—theorists disagree! Many theoretical claims are not supported by the actual recorded evidence.
That said, al-Farabi is noted for providing a number of calculations for the placement of frets on the oud, giving us an idea of theory and practice
in his time. Tawfiq al-Sabbagh wrote a book in the 1930s, difficult to obtain, in which he discusses the practices of his time. I haven't read it,
as far as I know it's never been translated into English. Scott Marcus has done some work, available in his dissertation "Arab Music in the Modern
Period" as well as some other journal articles, where this topic is explored. There are some issues with it, IMO, but it remains some of the best
Western scholarship on the subject. Sami Abu Shumays has also done some excellent work where he touches on some of this—Sami is very sophisticated
and interested in subtleties and his work is worth reading.
I'm not a scientist or an academic, so I just gather information and theorize for my own purposes based on my observations.
|
|
|
franck leriche
Oud Junkie
Posts: 175
Registered: 5-18-2011
Location: France
Member Is Offline
|
|
From what i've seen, no one of the masters i've been in contact with has ever talk about any theory regarding tuning.
Since the era of the recording, many scientific research have been made on the intervals played by various masters, they all lead to the same result:
no one musician always plays the intervals exactly the same, and no one musician plays the same as any other one.
But all masters are able to give a great rendition of any makam.
Also there's one thing that is shared by all the modals traditions from the middle east.
Some notes are always played with a "vibrato".
Vibrato in the western sense doesn't give the right idea, it's a kind of motion on the note.
And some don't have any vibrato, it's a very vocal thing.
In my opinion those motions are even more important than the precision of the intervals.
In persian and arabic classical music it's very clear.
In turkish music, maybe due to a occidental influence it can be a little messy...
For example, i love Cinuçen Tanrikorur, but sometimes he vibrates so many notes that i loose the taste of the makam.
My initial point was to give an idea of a tuning that gives more taste to the makams.
|
|
|
SufianSaeed
Oud Maniac
Posts: 52
Registered: 1-17-2015
Location: Tripoli
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feeling like A Resha
|
|
sorry this could be off topic a bit , but i have to ask , does anyone here use Digital tuners ? like the one's in the smart phones ? i use a a digital
tuner application named "DaTuner" supposed to be the best .. does anyone have any say on this ?
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by SufianSaeed | | sorry this could be off topic a bit , but i have to ask , does anyone here use Digital tuners ? like the one's in the smart phones ? i use a a digital
tuner application named "DaTuner" supposed to be the best .. does anyone have any say on this ? |
I have used one sometimes as a reference to tune my nawa/neva string. A problem with all electronic tuners, both analog and digital, is that the
different brands do not agree with each other. Forum member "oudistcamp" has a brilliant and amusing photo which illustrates the problem. I *think*
it has been posted here in the past. It shows an oud peghead with 4 or 5 tuners attached. A string has been sounded and each tuner registers a
different opinion as to whether it is in tune, flat, or sharp, and by how much. The different telephone tuning "apps" that are available display
similar discrepancies.
|
|
|
Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 734
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by SufianSaeed | | sorry this could be off topic a bit , but i have to ask , does anyone here use Digital tuners ? like the one's in the smart phones ? i use a a digital
tuner application named "DaTuner" supposed to be the best .. does anyone have any say on this ? |
I usually tune one of the unison strings with a digital tuner and the other half of the pair by ear. Tuners are totally fine, especially on gigs when
you may not be able to hear well.
There may be some slight discrepancies between tuners due to their sensitivity or accuracy. Many modern tuners will have +/- 0.02 cent accuracy. The
differences aren't enough to worry about IMO. Just check everything by ear once tuned.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Jason |
I usually tune one of the unison strings with a digital tuner and the other half of the pair by ear. |
This is very important. To get the pair really in tune, you need to tune them by ear.
|
|
|
SufianSaeed
Oud Maniac
Posts: 52
Registered: 1-17-2015
Location: Tripoli
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feeling like A Resha
|
|
am definitely going to start doing that " one of the pair's with a tuner and the other by ear " its seems like a good exercise for the intonation as
well , when i go to my teacher which once or twice a month , he always tunes my highest Do strings down a little bit to what would seem a bit
flattened in the Digital tuner meter bar " just a tiny bit really " so i've always wondered about their accuracy .
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
