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Paul007
Oud Addict
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How close (different) is the pipa to (from) the oud?
The pipa in the Tang Dynasty (around 7th - 9th century) looks like the oud, and was played with a plectrum (The following two pictures are from the
paintings of Tang Dynasty).
 
But the present day pipa becomes more different from the oud. The playing techniques are also different.
 (from http://liufangmusic.net/English/pipa.html)
I am curious about the history of the oud.How long does it exist? Since when is the oud taken the form of today? It seems to me that there is no
standard size and form for the oud making. Every oud player has their own instrument made by himself or specially ordered. The oud is beautiful
instrument for its sound and its look. But it seems to me that every oud player has a different oud, at lest from the look. Is it becuase of differnt
countries, or it is simply the individual taste of different oud-makers or/and musicians? The Chinese pipa has a standard measure in size and making
though the quality varies.
By the way, I enjoy the oud music found in http://www.mikeouds.com/playlist.html and
the "professional sound clips" in this forum. I love oud music, its beauty, depth and its vastness (sense of space). I also discovered some beautiful
pictures of the oud here.
I found the Chinese pipa (which is related to the oud in history) is also very expressive instrument, and I would like to intriduce it to you. I have
put up a thread in http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2471
which is a video clip of pipa and percussion live concert by Liu Fang and Ziya Tabassian.
You can download from
http://216.19.71.27/liufang/video/huobajiezhiye.WMV (more pieces in http://www.philmultic.com/liufang/video/index.html)
Hope you like it.
Paul
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Paul007
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Can anybody describe a little about the historical developement of the oud, and how it is different from country to country, or from school to school?
The saw a few oud players and their oud seem to be different, some with longer necks, some with shorter necks, and even have frets that can move, and
mostly no frets in the way like cello. But I am particularly interested in its history. How was it like, say thousand years ago? Is there a website
for this information?
Thanks!
Paul
Paul
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi Paul
Thanks for posting the material on the pipa. I really enjoyed the video clip - wonderful playing, and very evocative to watch.
I'm also very interested in the historical connections between different instruments, especially those of Asian origin. Central Asia, and perhaps
the silk road in particular, seems to have had this amazing role as a germinating ground for the early forms of many instruments. I think it can be
valuable, not just as a matter of curiosity, but also as a practical help in realizing the potential of modern instruments, to be able to listen to
and, where possible, play closely related instruments, though they originate from different cultures or time periods. I'm not sure where it will
lead me, but I've recently been comparing recordings of music for pipa and gu-zheng to recordings using oud and kanun. So I completely understand
your wanting to obtain further information on the common ancestry of oud-like instruments, as well wanting a better understanding how the divergences
came about.
Unfortunately, phrased in that expansive way, it's potentially a huge subject, and there probably isn't a single website containing everything you're
looking for, seeing that it would include both ancient history and more recent details of oud construction and regional styles. You may already be
aware of them, but in case you aren't, here are a couple of useful sites dealing with the early history of the oud, with occasional reference to
the pipa: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/history.html (David Parfitt's site); and http://www.kairarecords.com/oudpage/oud.htm.
As to more recent information, there are lots of people who visit this site who have detailed knowledge as to current regional variations in
instrument building style, playing styles and repertoire. My sense is that they're often too busy playing or instrument building themselves to
write the book or create the website that would provide comprehensive answers to your questions. However, if you've got the patience to do so, you
can probably put together the answers to almost all of your questions by using the search feature for this website, and judiciously choosing your
search topics - eg., searching "Turkish oud" or "strings for Turkish oud", will probably lead you to detailed information on the particularities of
that style of instrument.
Finally, strategic use of U to U's could help. My experience is that people on this site truly love the music and the instrument, and are usually
quite happy to have an opportunity to share that passion, as long as it's on a manageable scale. If you use the search feature, and pay attention
to who seems to be interested in what topic, you should be able to quickly identify who some of the more knowledgeable (and/or talkative) site members
are.... You could then search for a contributor's name on the search feature, and get a virtual diary of all their entries, or try to contact them
directly...
Best of luck with your inquiries....Mark/Kasos
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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Thanks - some initial findings and more question ....
Hi Mark,
it is very kind of you. I am doing a little search according to you advice, and found quite a lot of very interesting information. Thank you indeed.
The two sites you mentioned (http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/history.html and http://www.kairarecords.com/oudpage/oud.htm) have been very helpful.
Here I just sort out some parallels and findings, which point out more questions:
1. The oud appeared three and half thousand years ago, and seemed to have experienced a big change around 9th-10th century to become
what is like today. I still need to learn more to know the details.
2. The Chinese historical records mentioned that the oud was introduced to China through the Silk Road during the Northern and
Southern Dynasty (420-589 AD). That implies that it is the fore-runner of the today's oud that was brought to China, which was called "hu-pipa"
(literally foreign lute), which had a few frets, and was played with a quite large wooden plectrum (see text and photos in http://liufangmusic.net/English/pipa.html ). Today's oud normally has no frets, and is played with a soft plectrum. The only common ground between
the early pipa (photos above) and oud is that both instruments played horizontally (see photos in http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/history.html.
3. Around 9-10th century, the pipa underwent big changes too: first, the instrument began to be played with finger nails instead of
the plectrum. And the instrument sits vertically on the lap so that the left hand can move more freely. The number of frets was increased too (see http://liufangmusic.net/English/pipa.html ).
. I cannot summarize clearly for now, what changes the oud experienced during the 9-10th century. I need to do some more search.
4. When the oud brought to Europe late, it involved into lute and guitar, which differs from the oud in at least two ways: the use
of fingernails instead of plectrum, and the frets. Interestingly enough, this is similar to the changes that took place when the oud brought to China
in around the 5th century. However, there some big differences: the plucking fingers move toward ourside when playing the pipa, as is evident in the
video of Liu Fang, while for the guitar and lute, the plucking finger moves inwards. Pipa string used to be made of silk, and played with real nails,
since early last century, the strings are replaced by steel (rapped with nylon to make the sound not too sharp). From that time on, a little plectrum
is attached to each finger to protect the nails.
Now these are some further questions:
1. The resonant body of the pipa is shallower today that it was introduced in the 4th century. It is produced from a whole piece of
hard and heavy wood, so the pipa sound is sharp and crystal clear with less resonance, while the lute or guitar have kept more or less the original
feature of oud. I am wondering why? Maybe because of the musical needs, or it was a influence from the fore-runner of the oud, that is, could it be
that the very early oud was made of a whole piece of wood? and so it was called "oud"?
2. The back of the sound body of pipa is made out of a whole piece of wood, usually very hard and heavy wood, while the oud is made
of thin and light wood glued together. The question is, was the fore-runner of the oud also made out of whole piece of wood? When was the strong glue
material invented to enable the oud to be made in the present way?
3. Chinese historical records indicated that there existed a kind of pipa with round body and straight neck in the second century
BC. The name of this instrument "pipa" was given to the oud-like pipa introduced to China in the 4th century. The original "pipa" has been call Ruan
since then. The question is: was this original pipa (now called ruan, see http://www.philmultic.com/home/instruments/ for photo and text) created in China or introduced earlier from somewhere? If it was introduced, why
earlier pipa (now called ruan) differs so much from the oud (and even from the present day pipa)?
I am still searching for an answer. Meanwhile, if anybody here has some ideas and clues, please do write down here, or point out links to interesting
sites about these issues.
Thanks!
Paul
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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The oud chronicles:
According to 9th-10th century legends:
The oud was invented by Lamak [sixth grandson of Adam], a direct descendant of Cain
The oud appeared in Mesopotamia during the Kassite period (1600-1150 B.C.) with a small oval body."
It was found in the "tomb of Sen-Mut, a tutor of Princess Neferura, who exercised great influence over the arts during the reign of Queen Hatshepsut
from 1501 to 1479 B.C."
"A larger variety, similar to the instrument's present day dimension, appeared in a relief at Alaca Hoyuk in Anatolia dating from the Hitite New
Kingdom (1460-1190 B.C.)."
during reign of the Sassanid King Shaput I (241-72).
According to two authors of the end of the 14th century:
- Reaching China, an oud like Chinese instrument, pipa featured in instrumental ensembles of the Chinese Han Dynasty (206 B.C.) - [This is different
from Chinese sources, see below*]
- spread towards the Arab peninsula in the 7th century.
The founder of the ud school of Baghdad [in the 9th century]
Ziryab transported the art of the ud to the banks of the Guadalquivir in Moorish Spain, at the far extremity of the Empire."
Ziryab set about introducing the concepts of a new music, drawn from Greek, Persian and Arab elements, that was to influence deeply the foundation
of European classical music."
Confucius (600 BC) was the first person to compile historical records about major events in the governments, society and in natures of earlier
dynasties and his time. Since the time of Confucius (600 BC), China has kept written historical records till the last dynasty.
According to Chinese historical documents, the oud was introduced to China in the during the 5th century, developed into the pipa in the 7th-9th
century, and later brought to the neighboring countries.
It is still not clear to me about the historical connection. Is there any records in the Arabic world that some oud players used their fingers instead
of plectrum? How about the sitar? I saw Persian musicians play with one finger, and the Indian musicians play with two fingers. But the Chinese pipa
and European guitar are played with 5 fingers, though totally different way. Who was the first to introduce these techniques? or simply by trying and
error?
I have found a nice article about the history of guitar.
http://www.classicalguitarmidi.com/history/guitar_history.html
From the medieval Spain to the 18th and 19th of Europe. But there are also some discussion about early history.
And more in http://www.guitarramagazine.com/GuitarHistory
My goodness, a lot of information, much more than I would expected. ....
Paul
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi Paul
Interesting to hear your latest research...I rather suspected that it would be a big topic, once you started getting into it....
In reference to your earlier post, speculating about construction made from a single piece of wood, I've encountered a fair amount of material about
early bowed strings (a particular interest of mine) that strongly supports the idea of one piece instrument construction being fairly widespread in
the period before 1000 AD. Indeed, quite a number of traditional bowed strings today retain this type of construction - off the top of my head, I'm
thinking of a number of closely related instruments which seem to have sprung from the shared musical culture of the Ottoman empire, namely, the
Cretan lyra, the Turkish kemence, the Serbian guzle, and the Bulgarian gadulka. There's also a one piece construction Chinese fiddle, with somewhat
similar dimensions, which is apparently the traditional instrument of the Dong (?) people in Southern China, and which is reputedly mentioned in some
very early Chinese writings. In central Asia, (Kirghizistan) there's a bowed instrument called the kil kyak which is one piece, though saddle
shaped, rather than pear shaped like the ones I previously mentioned. And there's a one piece version of the sarangi (also more of a saddle shape)
which is found, though sometimes under different names, in Nepal, Kazahkstan, and Iran, with some suggestion that its use extended as far as
Afghanistan. Moreover, though this seems to be less widespread, they still make plucked instruments like the baglama on a one piece basis (including
the neck, as is usually the case with all the bowed instruments mentioned above) in Bulgaria, presumably as a continuation of the ancient
practice...
In reference to your speculative question about the reason for a thick, relatively heavy bowl being preferred for the pipa, I think this would have
developed based on practical, rather than acoustical considerations, once the basic choice to opt for one piece construction had been made. Simply
put, when building a one piece construction bowl, it's prudent to err on the side of making the instrument sturdier, to support strains and stresses
over the length and breadth of the instrument, without cracking or bending. All your eggs are in one basket, as it were, and you don't want to
waste the large piece of wood required.... A friend of mine recently built a kemence for me, and we went through exactly the same agony trying to
decide how thin we could afford to go with the bowl. When the dust cleared, my instrument is probably thicker than it should be, for purposes of
optimal resonance, but that's precisely the point I'm trying to make...You can see a picture of it, along with a number of my other instruments, if
you use the search feature on this site to locate "lavta info", a thread started by bcearthtones....You'll find it on top of page 2 of that
thread....Take care, Mark
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kasos
Hi Paul
Interesting to hear your latest research...I rather suspected that it would be a big topic, once you started getting into it....
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Hi Mark,
Thank you so much for your great help. I am very glad know that the early oud might be manufactured from a whole piece of wood. I would gues that the
oud then should also sound quite differently from that of today. I am very impressed by your knowledge and I am so glad to find this forum. Yes I
found the thread you mentioned:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2487&page=1
Very interesting info and amazing pictures of your collections. I'll spend some more time and try to sort out all the information I can obtain.
By the way, I found the terminology of the instrument is interesting; in a sense it reflects the history. I know "tar" in Persian simply means
"string". So sitar (or setar?) is three string, for instance. But the Indian sitar has got more than three strings. The guitar has normally 6 strings,
but what is the meaning of "qui"? From which language it come from? Does "gui" means a certain number, or is it an article similar to "the", such
that guitar means simply "the strings"?
Another term in Europe is lute (or luth, laute, laud etc in different languages). I guess this may come from the name "oud", which mean "a piece of
wood". Is the "lavta" or "Lauta" you mentioned another name for oud?
Here there are two traditions of the instrument: one named after the string (sitar, guitar), the other named after the building material (oud, lute).
In China there is also a tradition to name an instrument according to the number of strings ("xian" in Chinese). For instance, sanxian is a pluck
instrument with 3 (san) strings, long neck, without frets. Sixian is an bowed instrument with 4 (si) strings, also call sihu, where the hu means
"foreign", indicating it is not Chinese origin. Duxian qin ("Du" mean single) has got only one string.
Anyway, you are right in that it is a big subject all together.
Thank you again, Mark.
Paul
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kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
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Paul, thanks for your kind comments. I'm really quite new at this, although, with what is reminiscent of a convert's interest, in the past year or
so I've spent (and continue to spend) a fair amount of time reading up on non-western instrumentation, and where possible, obtaining examples of the
instruments themselves....
I'm intrigued by one of the points you touched on in your last post.
I suppose it's possible to set up a little bit of a conundrum with the members of the oud family - although it's true that the lavta is derived from
the oud and the laouta is derived from the oud - is the Greek laouta derived primarily from the oud, or primarily from the lavta? I can't really
answer this question myself, maybe someone else on the site can...
Take care, Mark
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Paul007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kasos
...... |
Hi, Mark,
It's pleasure to discuss with you. I'm a little confused about the early history of Persia - Iran and Iraq. The oud seems to have appeared first in
Iran and Iraq - Arabic world, but wasn't Iran call Persia? I thought the Persians call the instruments "tar" according to the strings, and the Arabic
people called "oud" according to its making. I almost wanted to conclude that when it is called a certain "tar", such as sitar, setar or guitar, the
instruments tend to have long necks and frets, smaller resonant body and played with finger nails or the like. Whereas all kinds of "oud" tend to
have shorter necks and no frets, larger resonant body, and played with plectrum. But the Persia and Arabs, are they the same people? It seems
complicated there. I also heard that the Indian sitar came from Persia. Anyway, it is an interesting subject. Thank you for your contribution. I'll
come back when I discovered some further clues. Meanwhile, if you or anybody in this forum find interesting pages on the related subject from the
interent, I appreciate very much that you put a link on this thread. That will help a lot. Thanks!
Many thanks also to Mike for providing this nice space for discussion and exchanging information.
Paul
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi Paul,
While it's clear that the moniker "tar" has been fundamental in the later derivation of terms for many different instruments, it may be a little
unrealistic to look for such a word-root to have retained a single set of fixed meanings over a thousand years and multiple cultures on three or more
different continents.... This begins with the recognition that words and instrument types can have patterns of spread and development that are quite
arbitrary or independent of each other - for example, there never was much in common in terms of construction between the Indonesian rebab and the
medieval English rebec, though both are ultimately derived from the same word, and both are bowed instruments. The problem is quite fundamental, and
inescapable: when someone develops an alternate form of an instrument, they sometimes retain the old name for the new instrument, or they can develop
a new name - in each case, confusion and paradoxes can arise, since the new instrument may be very similar to the old one, and have a different name,
or the new instrument can very different from the old one, and keep the same name...
Are you aware of the barbat, which is the Persian form of the oud? (general info can be found on sites such as barbat.us/about barbat.htm.) In
considering the significance of differences/similarities between instruments in a basic short neck wide bowl family, and a long necked, small bowl
family of instruments on the other hand, you might also consider deepening your research into other long necked, fretted instruments, such as the
tambur, or tamboor (versions of which are found in Iran, India and just about everywhere in the former Ottoman empire including the Balkans). You
might also find it useful to know more about the different instruments in the saz family (cura, baglama, divan, etc., including their relative the
modern Greek Bouzouki).
Once you become aware of all of these other instruments, I think you will find reason to be cautious about generalizations. Take frets, for example.
It's true that most of the latter (long necked) type of instrument are fretted, but not exclusively (in Kirghizistan the national instrument is the
long necked komuz, which is unfretted, and one of the ancestors of the saz family, the kopuz, is not fretted), while, conversely, it's also true that
some members of the first group (the oud family), such as the Renaissance lute, are fretted...not to mention the Chinese pipa...
The other thing is that historically, the construction of the guitar appears to have been primarily inspired by the oud/lute, rather than by the long
necked family of instruments.... So I can't help but feel just a little awkward at seeing it potentially grouped with the long-necked group just
because of the use of "tar" in the name and the presence of frets.
It's all rather fun to think about, though....
By the way, I should indicate thanks to you for introducing me to Liu Fang's pipa videos, earlier in this thread. Before you brought the subject up,
when I had been looking for an instrument to accompany my erhu fiddle, I was leaning heavily toward a zither-type instrument (probably a guzheng), but
I've now reconsidered.... This week a full size pipa became available on E-bay for a very modest price, so I've decided to take the plunge and get
one....
Take care, Mark
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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Hi Mark,
Thank you so much for the info and for pointing out the site about the barbat (http://www.barbat.us/aboutbarbat.htm). It is the first time I heard about this name, and indeed the site contains some very interesting
information. So the barbat was made of whole piece of wood, similar to pipa! That may explain the puzzle. According to this site, the Persian barbat
was taken into the Arabic world, and became "oud". If we could find out since when it is called "oud", then it would be great help. I wonder if
anybody in the forum know about it.
It could be "barbat" which was brought to China even before the barbat was taken to the Arabic world which became oud. Also the name "pipa" sounds
more similar to "barbat" though according to dictionary, the pronunciation for the two Chinese characters standing for the instrument came from the
sound of two pipa techniques produced by playing forwards and backwards with the plectrum. The upper parts of both characters are the same "picture"
representing any string instrument; the lower parts are only phonetically meaningful, pronounced respectively [pee] and [paa].
The history about the oud from this site is quite different from the previous ones. It seems to be related with the beginning of Islam, which
shouldn't be that old, whereas previously I learnt that the oud exists over thousand years before Christ. Now the question: Is the oud really the
decedent of barbat, or was it created independently?
I found it is fascinating to relate history with music, and with the migration of people ... though I agree with you, this is not an easy subject at
all.
I am interested in any relevant information about this subject. Thank you again!
Paul
Paul
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Interestingly enough, the world music institute is sponsoring a concert next month involving oud, pipa, and guitar as a sort of lineage-themed
performance. Simon Shaheen (oud), Min Xiou-Fen (pipa) and Vic Juris (guitar)
http://www.worldmusicinstitute.org/mahrajan/mahrajan.html
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Paul007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kasos
.... By the way, I should indicate thanks to you for introducing me to Liu Fang's pipa videos, earlier in this thread. Before you brought the
subject up, when I had been looking for an instrument to accompany my erhu fiddle, I was leaning heavily toward a zither-type instrument (probably a
guzheng), but I've now reconsidered.... This week a full size pipa became available on E-bay for a very modest price, so I've decided to take the
plunge and get one....
Take care, Mark |
Hi Mark,
Just continue with my last message - how is your project? You play erhu? That is a beautiful instrument. And now the pipa! Both seem to be tough
instrument to learn. Can you upload some of your recordings to share?
Yes, I love Liu Fang's playing. I am glad that you appreciate.
Thank you again for all the infos and links. I have learnt a lot, but appear to be more confused with the history ...
Take care,
Paul
Paul
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
Interestingly enough, the world music institute is sponsoring a concert next month involving oud, pipa, and guitar as a sort of lineage-themed
performance. Simon Shaheen (oud), Min Xiou-Fen (pipa) and Vic Juris (guitar)
http://www.worldmusicinstitute.org/mahrajan/mahrajan.html |
That is interesting! I wish to be able to attend the concert. Thank you for pointing it out.
In Montreal at the Arabic world music festival, there is one concert of pipa and oud, with Liu Fang and Yousra Dhahbi http://www.festivalarabe.com/fma/content.jsp?sid=49606535719222164811430179786&ctid=1000320&cnid=1000688.
Paul
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
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Hi Paul and Mark,
This is an interesting discussion. In my opinion, trying to pin point the roots of an instrument is a bit futile. Many nations calim to have made the
first instrument or have the ancestor to a particular instrument, (especially the case with guitars). But the truth is that instruments change through
time based on technology, history, fashion, creativity etc. (sometimes with different names, or even different shapes but the same name). And it
becomes very hard to distinguish fact and fiction.
I'd like to say that I wouldn't put too much weight on what Mr. Behrouznia has put on his website about the history of Barbat and Oud. I really doubt
his historical account (what are his sources?) But to clarify what he contends as the history of oud being a persian instrument, I can tell you about
one of his interviews for a persian music journal. He said that prior to the Islamic invasion of Iran (Persia) about 1400 years ago, the Arabs had a
skin covered instrument (I forget the name, but once I find that article, I'll cite it). Once they saw the Barbat (all wood instrument, named either
after the historical musician of the Sasani court or named after a chest or even named after the shape of a bird), they duplicated it and called the
oud, which replaced their instrument and then found its way to Europe.
Many people have tried to duplicate Barbats based on old pictures found in tex books and so on. The replications are not consistent, sometimes the
instrument look like ouds sometimes they look like setars. But these pictures are not from the era prior to Islam. They are either based on ouds
played in the arab and persian courts or based on written description (very inaccurate) of the Barbat from the time prior to Islam, probably about
1000 years ago, after a mini cultural renaissance in Iran.
Mr. Behrouznia is very skilled and quite an amazing player, and I have seen him live. His barbat is custom made (an oud with an extended neck to allow
him to play the Persian Dastgah music, much like a Lavta). But his historical account is probably not an accurate one.
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi Peyman, Paul.... Nice to hear from the both of you again. Peyman, I think your caution about the reliability of Behrouznia's historical claims
is very sound. Clearly, relying on any single source (especially an internet source not subject to peer or academic review) is always going to be
something of a gamble. I suppose that's part of the attraction of a site like this forum, in that you get the benefit of many viewpoints, from all
over the world, and in many cases that leads to misconceptions or inaccuracies being pointed out (usually in the friendliest of manners!). All the
more credit is due to Mike and the other site administrators for making this all possible...
In partial defence of Mr. Behrouznia, I think that while some of the detail of his claims may be somewhat overblown or speculative, I think that there
is a broader point, which his contribution helps underline, if only indirectly, which is that Persia/Iran has had a very important, and often too
little appreciated role in transmitting styles and instruments both Eastward to China and India, and westward to the Middle East (and from there,
ultimately to Europe and Africa). It would be difficult to conceive of this process occurring without at least some local input from Persia/Iran
along the way, and perhaps this creative contribution is greater than is usually imagined....
Paul, as to details of my own situation, I think I can call the Greek themed play my group did this summer a success - we had about 1100 people attend
the performances in my home community of Flin Flon, and another 1700 or so attend a series of performances in Winnipeg - as a result, our show wound
up with the second best attendance out of 136 acts at the 2005 Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Fringe Festival. (The Winnipeg Fringe festival had the
highest attendance of any Fringe festival in North America in 2004, and although I don't know the comparative figuures for this year, I would imagine
it was still pretty competitive....) Reaction to our play was very positive, especially to the music, which featured oud, lavta, lyra and kemence,
along with a number of Western instruments.
As for my own instrument purchasing and playing, I still haven't received the pipa I ordered yet (drat!), but the full size Morin Khuur from Mongolia
arrived a little ahead of schedule, when my friend got back from there this past weekend. It's a new instrument which my friend, interpreter in
hand, purchased directly at the main workshop/factory in Ulan Bator, together with replacement strings, hard case, the works. As I mentioned in an
earlier post, it's got a cello like range, but no fingerboard and horsehair strings, so it's going to take a little while to really get under
control.... A nice challenge though, and certainly adds variety to the things you can do with a bow....
A final note about the erhu, which you mentioned, Paul.... Though I can now play simpler sorts of tunes with relatively good intonation, I'm really
not ready to post recordings with it yet - maybe give me a few months... Though I'm making some strides, the biggest difference between my erhu
playing right now and what you hear on recordings is the vibrato - the typical modern Chinese recording features wide vibrato basically throughout,
which makes it sound a lot like a classical western violin player. Oddly enough, though I can do classical violin vibrato, vibrato requires a
different technique, physically, on the erhu - the absence of a fingerboard being a big part of this. So I have to learn to do vibrato all over
again...
My other notable piece of erhu information is this tidbit, which I recently picked up: when Mel Gibson did "Passion of the Christ", he and the film
score writer looked for an instrument to act as the "leitmotiv" for the devil.... and chose the erhu. I'm going to guess that the snakeskin resonator
is all they needed by way of connection....for goodness sakes! I don't know whether to laugh or be indignant, I guess Mel had lots of other people
complaining about his film, anyway, other than erhu players.... Anyway, I suppose that on one level it gave some welcome exposure (not to mention paid
work) for a very talented erhu player with far too few performance opportunities...
Take care, everyone....
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kasos
It would be difficult to conceive of this process occurring without at least some local input from Persia/Iran along the way, and perhaps this
creative contribution is greater than is usually imagined.... |
I agree with you completely. Just the geographic location of Persia helps that cause. A lot of sources do say that Barbat is the grandfather of the
oud and similar instruments.
But what I have a problem is this statment in his site: "After Islam’s attack to Iran this instrument was taken to Arabia and after a while it came
back to Iran with a bit change in it." I just think it's a weak statement filled with bitterness. Even in his interviews, he seems bitter about people
identifying the oud as an Arabic instrument.
I think he would do a greater service, if he were to compile a list of resources on his site and give some technical data. To give him credit, he is
writing a book on "barbat" which he says will come out in a few years. Maybe he can shed a light on the history a little more clearly that way.
By the way, I was unaware that they use the erhu because of its resonator (I thought they used a synthesizer).
Take care
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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Hi Mark, Hi Peyman,
I feel so lucky to have dropped into this forum by chance. The discussion with you both a very enriching and inspiring. Thank you. I have learnt a lot
about the oud-lute-pipa thing. I agree with you both in that the historical threads are not easy to track down. I am wondering if there is an
international institution specializing these issues? On the other hand, I can imagine that some musicians are also inspired and venture to bring all
these instruments together. We seem to live in a very interesting time.
Mark, I am sorry that your pipa has not been delivered yet. But what you are doing sounds very interesting. I searched the website and found the
following: http://www.winnipegfringe.com/generic/, very interesting ideas to bring various audience together in a easy way. I'd love to see one. Please
excuse my geography. Where is Flin Flon? It doesn't sound like English name. How about Winnipeg folk music festival? Are they similar in ideas?
By the way I love the Morin Khur playing traditional Mongolian melodies. But I never had the chance to see live performance yet.
The story about the erhu sounds funny. If you listen music before and after the cultural revolution, there are big changes. It seems to me that the
Chinese "modernization" means "westernization", which certainly hurt some traditional things, including music. But there seem to have some
"renaissance" too. Anyway, it is a long story.
Thank you for the discussions. I enjoy it!
Take care
Paul
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi Paul
Re: Flin Flon - This rather unusual place-name is not derived from any particular language, and it's become customary to offer some form of
explanation. Flin Flon is the short form or nickname of "Flintabbety Flonatin", the name of a character in a dime-store science fiction novel from
1905 or so, called "The Sunless City". "Flinty" (another nickname often heard locally) goes to the center of the earth, where he encounters an
unknown civilisation, a little like the much more famous Jules Verne story, from which "The Sunless City" seems to be inspired.
"The Sunless City" is anything but a literary classic, but it does feature one passage which led to it being immortalized, sort of, as the name of a
City (albeit a very small one). This passage, right at the outset of the book, describes a bottomless lake, through which metallic gleams can be
seen.
The present day Flin Flon is a mining community, and the prospectors who discovered the original mineral deposit found a vein of copper/gold/zinc ore
extending downward into a lake. One of them had just read the book (nothing else to do on a cold northern night, and even a bad book is better than
no entertainment at all), and immediately connected the literary reference to what they had just found. They started calling the site the "Flin Flon
deposit", and the name stuck.
At one time, the municipal government in Flin Flon bragged that it was the only place in North America named after a science fiction character. I
just hope nobody decides to update the reference to something like "Captain Kirk" or "Luke Skywalker".... "Flin Flon" is quirky enough, thank you....
Re Mel Gibson and the erhu: I've had the chance to research this question a little further, and it seems there is another side to this story. In
particular, I should let the composer, John Debney, tell his version of events. You can find an interview with Debney at http://www.tracksounds.com/specialfeatures/Interviews/interview_joh...
He describes in some detail about how Mel was looking for something other than standard horror movie schtick, and how at one point Debney suggested
the erhu, because of its "beautiful exotic sound that has this human-vocal quality to it". Mel loved the idea and it became the devil's theme
instrument.
I think Debney is genuine in his appreciation for the erhu. He took the trouble of including other non western instruments, such as the Duduk, in
the score. Moreover, the devil in "Passion" is not your standard horns and hoofs type, but has this sort of androgynous, David Bowie-like charm.
The erhu sound can be both exotic and suave, and certainly it does the job musically of conveying both these qualities.
So Debney's off the hook, but is Mel? There are all sorts of instruments with a more direct connection to the middle east (including the oud, but
also a number of bowed strings) that also potentially have the suave and exotic quality that was being looked for..... I suppose it would have to
remain in the realm of conjecture, but it's hard to picture the director of a film which is as literal minded as "Passion" being anything but tickled
at using a snakeskin instrument to represent the devil.... You decide....
Take care, Mark
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
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That's an interesting interview. I didn't pay attention to the music much. I have to see it again.
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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oups, see Posts: 25 
Paul
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Paul007
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Hi Peyman,
I also agree with you about your statement regarding the relation between barbat and oud. My main confusion is that the time when Islam took over
Persia was much later compared to the history of either barbat or oud: it is in the 7th century. There must be some records or paintings from that
time or earlier. Is there any indication from historical records or paintings how the oud look like, and how it was manufactured before the 7th
century? And how the Barbat looked like? The early history seems to be based on legends.
Thank you
Paul
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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Hi Mark,
That is a beautiful essay about Flin Flon. I thought the name might come from the natives, or some of the languages of the new immigrants. But it is
from a fiction. You are good writer. I enjoy reading it. How big is the population of Flin Flon? What are they living on? Still gold mining? That is
really amazing story. Thank you so much.
I wonder if Mel Gibson has ever been exposed to a Vietnamese Dan Bau. It is a mono cord with haunting sound. There is a piece in Liu Fang's website,
but in the Chinese site only. I can place a link here:
http://www.philmultic.com/liufang/MP3/yu_zhou.html
Never mind about the language, just click on the "sound" icon you can hear it. It is dan bau and guzheng duet (see the photo in the same site). But on
the English site, it is guzheng solo. Just would like to hear how you think about the sound compared to erhu.
The link you placed in the above message doesn't work. I'd love to read the interview. Could you have a check?
I haven't seen "Passion of Christ" yet. I'll try to rent a video tape. I become very curious about the film.
Anyway, the erhu was apparently not Chinese from the origin, as its name reflects: The two Chinese character "er" and "hu" stand literally "two" and
"foreign", implying "two stringed bowed instrument originated from foreign lands". I guess the resonnant body was originally covered with goat skin.
Somehow, when it was introduced to China, snake skin began to be in use. But I don't know who began to use the snake skin, because snake is not a
favorite animal in the western cultures, or at least not supposed to be used as part of the instrument that is often used in prayers. [On the other
hand, Chinese people don't care. I know a famous soup that can only be found in special restaurants is made by cooking snake (not alive, of course,
but has to be fresh). I tried once in a Cantonese restaurent, very delicious indeed!]. Therefore, I guess it might be Chinese people who began to use
the snake skin. There is also a pluck string called sanxian (three string, see http://www.philmultic.com/home/instruments/#sanxian), whose resonnant body is also covered with snake skin. The sound must be quite different from
those made of goat skin, but to what extent, I never have the chance to compare them. maybe you have both in your collection, and can tell us what is
the major difference.
I'll definitely see the film "Passion".
By the way, I heard J. S. Bach composed a beautiful piece based on the same theme. I am wondering if the film has any thing to do with Bach's
composition.
Take care,
Paul
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
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Hi Paul,
For one thing pictures or statues can be decieving, especially the ones from antiquity (and some of these can't even be dated). You can't really
conculde shape or dimensions. Yes there are pictures from that time but how accurate are they? The era in question is the Sassani period in Persia.
You can see some pictures in this site: http://www.oudmajid.com/ouds.html (go down the page, right under the Egyptian picture).
You can also read the history given by the site owner. The logical conclusion is that the father of the oud was more likely a mesopotamian instrument
(the hot bed of civilisation) and existed there for a long time. The barbat might be the persian version of it. Also many persian poets and writers of
the antiquity wrote that musical instruments were created by greeks (Plato in particular, who is known as the "hakeem").
I am trying to find a translated copy of a book by Farabi, an islamic philosopher from 9th or 10th century who wrote many books about music. Only one
survives (called the Great Music). He describes many instruments of that period as well as his own inventions. Apparently, he played his own created
instrument with which he could make people laugh or cry.
Maybe I can get more clues about the origin of the barbat with that book.
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David Parfitt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 629
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Location: Devon, UK
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Dear Peyman
You can buy copies of al-Farabi's books from the Libraire Paul Geuthner in France. As far as I know the books contain the original Arabic text and a
French translation by Baron Rodolphe d'Erlanger, but I can't be 100% sure. Here is some more info about the books:
Book 1
Book 2
Best wishes
David
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