Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hicaz help
OK< this is going to be super basic for most of you, but are there microtones in Hicaz or not? Is it a matter of a difference in Turkish and
Arabic styles? I have different sources that seem to say different things, particularly with regard to the second note.
So, Hicaz on D would be D Eb F# G A Bb C D.
But, I have another source with Hicaz on E having at least one microtone, at the second note.
|
|
|
Greg
Administrator
Posts: 928
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Serene
|
|
Hi Jonathan,
I don't know about the Turkish Hicaz, but it seems the most popular Arabic Hijaz has the B as half flat on ascending and fully flat on descending.
(the rast on the way up and the nahawand on the way down)
No doubt there will be other more knowledgable folks who will correct me if I'm wrong (and I usually am.  )
Regards,
Greg
|
|
|
samzayed
Oud Junkie
Posts: 485
Registered: 11-1-2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mashee el hal
|
|
http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/hijaz.html
This page explains the subtle characterstics of Hijaz. The import thing to remember is that the 2nd note is slightly higher, and the third is slight
flatter.
|
|
|
al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Jonathan,
You are right, there is some confusion about the second and third degrees of Hijaz. It comes partly from the fact that Arab music theory identifies
these degrees as Eb and F#, while in practice the Eb is supposed to be sharpened a bit and the F# lowered a bit in order to produce the correct
intonation of the mode. This is one of several instances in which the theory fails to represent faithfully the nuances of microtonal inflections in
intonation. Turkish music theory is more precise in representing the presence of microtonal intervals in Hijaz: the second degree is indicated as
sharpened by a comma and the third degree is flattened by a comma. So the D-Eb interval becomes 5 commas instead of 4, and the F#-G interval also
becomes 5 commas instead of 4. Whatever the theoretical representation, the important point is that the "compressed" Eb-F# interval is an essential
characteristic of Hijaz; playing the mode in equal temperament, with an augmented second of one and a half tones, will miss its distinct quality and
beauty.
What adds to the confusion is the fact that in practice the augmented second interval is not played in a uniform size. Turkish musicians (especially
gypsy musicians) tend to push the second degree high, playing it sometimes practically on the note segah of Ussak/Bayati, while also lowering the
third degree even further than Turkish theory indicates. There is an Arab equivalent of this called Hijaz Gharib ("foreign Hijaz") or Hijaz Nawari
("Gypsy Hijaz") which does the same thing, but it is associated with baladi (folkish) and gypsy music, and is not commonly heard in mainstream Arab
music.
Another thing that may have thrown you off is the # sign in Turkish music. When you look at the Turkish representation of Hicaz, it shows the second
degree (written as Bb) as raised by a comma (the flat sign with a slash across it). The third degree is shown as C#, but this is not really a regular
C# but a Western C# flattened by one comma. So the third degree of Hicaz is also a microtonal pitch even though it doesn't appear to be so because of
the use of what seems to be a conventional # sign. The Turkish # raises a tone by 4 commas. This results in a situation in which the interval B-C#,
for example, is 8 commas instead of a full tone of 9 commas that we might initially expect (B-C=4 commas, C-C#=4 commas). By the same token, the note
evic is written with a # sign (f#), but it is actually a microtonal pitch (equivalent to the b half-flat in Arab music). The interval e-f#
(huseyni-evic) is smaller than a full tone (its size varying with the makam) although it initially looks like a full tone. I guess we need to learn to
live with the quirks and inaccuracies of the notation systems of both Arab and Turkish music.
I hope this has not added to your confusion.
|
|
|
Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thank you all for your help. Al-Halabi, you did not add to my confusion. My hope, I guess, was that there were no microtones, but I knew that I was
doing something wrong, because it never sounded right. I realized that there was a microtone at the second degree, but I did not know that there was
one at the third note. So, you have given me a great answer. Your knowledge of this stuff blows me away. I really enjoyed reading it (and your
response to True Pharoah's makam question earlier). Again, thank you.
|
|
|
al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Jonathan,
You're welcome. I hope you are experimenting with raising the second degree and lowering the third. By feeling your way through incremental changes in
intonation you will hit on a Hijaz tetrachord sequence (or sequences) that you find to be beautiful, soulful, and pleasing. Then you know you are
there. It's good to remember that the second and third degrees are microtonal pitches that are mobile rather than fixed , so they can be played in
more than one single intonation and still be "correct." Because the microtonal pitches are unstable in this music - varying with the makam, the
direction of the melodic progression, the regional performance style, etc. - our ears have to be our main guide to what sounds right.
You can try adding a small slide with the first and fourth fingers when you play the second and third degrees (a descending slide with the fourth
finger, ascending or descending with the first). If not overdone, this technique adds to the beauty of the sound by taking advantage of the
intonational flexibilty of the notes.
Enjoy!
|
|
|
TruePharaoh21
Oud Junkie
Posts: 789
Registered: 3-17-2003
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving the Oud
|
|
I have to agree with al-Halabi on the point that sliding is of pivotal importance when trying to give a more soulful approach to whatever music you're
playing, whether it be song, samai, taqsim, or otherwise.
But, I must warn you that while sliding is very important, one must use (as al-Halabi mentioned) their ears as their guide. A slide is not always the
best thing to use, and so it must not be overdone. I've noticed in some of the older recordings of Arabic music, they try to stay away from sliding as
much as possible, lending more to the technique of the right hand rather than the left. For example, try listening to Sunbati's taqsim on Hijaz Kar.
You will notice that the 3rd note of hijaz is largely emphasized in some parts, and he does not slide.
As for other maqams, a slide can be very dramatic. For example, in bayati on your second note, a slide can add such depth to the taqsim that it
sometimes becomes unfathomable to the listener of how you knew how to play what he felt.
Anyway, it's getting to sound a bit touchy, but remember... it's all a matter of taste! It is nothing to learn the technique without later finding
your own sound and seeing if you can incorporate it into your music.
Hope all is well with everyone,
TP21
|
|
|
Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks, guys. I really appreciate the help.
| Quote: |
It is nothing to learn the technique without later finding your own sound and seeing if you can incorporate it into your music.
|
Right now I am still at that point where I am trying to rip off other people's sound.
|
|
|
Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You guys have to be getting sick of this one, but just one more thing.
Lets say I am playing Hijaz in E:
So, E, F (sharpened a bit), G# (Flattened a bit), A, B, C#, D, E
Would the sixth degree here be flattened?
I really appreciate your help.
|
|
|
TruePharaoh21
Oud Junkie
Posts: 789
Registered: 3-17-2003
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving the Oud
|
|
Hey Jonathan,
I hope everything's going well with you. For what you've written as C#, I believe it should be either C natural or C half-sharp, depending on whether
you're ascending or descending, as well as the general mood and such.
Also, you can play the following:
E, F (sharpened a bit), G# (Flattened a bit), A, B, C, D#, E. That's Hijaz Kar. Really awesome transition. Anyway, hope that helps a bit.
TP21
|
|
|
Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks, Peter. I am just sitting here about to correct it because I should have written C. But, now I realize that there can be a microtone there.
Thanks again. You guys have made it really clear. I was playing this makam at one point with no microtones, and it sounded wretched. Now I realize
how involved this one is.
|
|
|
al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi,
Peter is right about the variations that the sixth and seventh degrees of Hijaz can take. I thought it would help to add one comment about these
variations within Hijaz. We are discussing them as features of a single makam, but actually there are four distinct makams that form part of the Hijaz
family. They all have the same first tetrachord/pentachord of Hijaz, but their second tetrachords/ pentachords are modally different from each other.
Traditional pieces were composed in each of the four makams. Turkish music has preserved the distinctions between them while modern Arab music theory
has tended to conflate the four into one single Hijaz mode. Using Turkish tuning, the four variants of Hijaz are:
1. Hijaz Humayun: first tetrachord of Hijaz on E, second pentachord of Buselik/Nahawand on A (A B C D E).
2. Hijaz: first tetrachord of Hijaz on E, second pentachord of Rast on A (A B C half-flat D E) . In the melodic descent the C half-flat often becomes
a C natural, changing the pentachord to Buselik.
3. Uzzal: first pentachord of Hijaz on E, second tetrachord of Ussak/Bayati on B (B C half-flat D E).
4. Hijaz Zirgule: first pentachord of Hijaz on E, second tetrachord of Hijaz on B (B, C shapened a bit, D# flattened a bit, E).
When we improvise in Hijaz we commonly introduce alterations in the sixth and/or seventh degrees. We tend to see these alterations as variations
within the same makam Hijaz or as accidentals, but in fact they are often modulations into the Hijaz sister makams.
Peter, your comment about Hijazkar is correct, up to a point. The scale of Hijaz Zirgule does have the same intervals as Hijazkar, but it is strictly
speaking a different makam. That's because it has an ascending melodic progression associated with it (playing/composition start with the first
tetrachord and move upward before returning to the tonic), while Hijazkar is a descending makam in which composition traditionally starts around the
octave and develops the higher tetrachords before proceeding toward the tonic. There are quite a few instances of makams with the exact same intervals
but with different melodic progressions, tonal centers, etc. that make them distinct modes rather than transposed versions of each other. The second
and third Hijaz makams above are one example of this - the scales are identical but the internal tonal centers are different (in the first A, in the
second B) and the resulting modal features are different. When we represent a makam in the form of a scale we sometimes forget that in the Middle
Eastern musical tradition a makam is not just a particular sequence of notes but a set of rules for making melody with these notes (where one starts,
the direction of melodic development, where the stops and transition points are, what accidentals and modulations are indicated, variations in the
intonation of microtonal pitches in ascent and descent, etc.). Each makam has its own rules, and part of the genius - and challenge for us - of this
modal system is the rich variety of rules and possibilities embedded in it. It sometimes seems like life is too short to figure it all out.
|
|
|
TruePharaoh21
Oud Junkie
Posts: 789
Registered: 3-17-2003
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving the Oud
|
|
al-Halabi,
You're absolutely correct. The problem with simply reading a set of which notes should be played truly lessens what their value is. I do believe that
I saw something in Scott Marcus' dissertation some notes (I wasn't able to read through the whole thing, as I only had it in my possession for a few
hours) of how certain maqamat should be played. I also had a discussion with another musician friend of mine, and we agree that simply noting which
notes should be played is greatly insufficient. Who is to know the difference between Husseini from Bayati if they're not instructed on it before?
Simply looking at the notes could be very misleading. And while a description of how a taqsim should be developed on a particular maqam, it is much
better to simply hear one of the masters play on it and see how they develop through the maqam.
I should say, though, to those who are just beginning their journey into maqamat that there are dozens of maqamat that are quite often not used. When
will I be given the chance to hear a taqsim on maqam Dalanshin by one of the Arabic masters, for example? When one first learns maqam Zanjaran, their
primary inclination is that it is Hijaz with Ajam starting on the fourth note. But the way one progresses through this maqam is much trickier than
simply playing the notes. One should listen to, for example, Ya Halawt el Dunya to gain somewhat of an understanding for the maqam.
I suppose a sidenote could be developed in which we could say that to truly begin to learn a maqam, whether it be simple or more "difficult," commonly
used or rare, one should listen to several examples of the maqam in different songs, taqsims, samais, etc. as well as try to find some source which
could give them some information on the maqam itself, as Marcus' dissertation does. Compounded with one another, the learning process would truly
begin.
But... I also do believe that for an intermediate learner to know the maqam, they must first know the notes. For example, in my previous post
regarding Hijaz Kar, though it has a different progression than Hijaz Zirgule, it is important for the beginner to simply know that something like
this exists, and focus on the details over time. If we were to try to give completely detailed instruction of Hijaz, it would take more than a single
post and definitely more than one sitting.
I remember when I first discovered the different tetrachord combinations, and how glad I was that I could produce transitions that I didn't know
existed. I believe this feeling of satisfaction is the best base for learning the rest of the details.
In short (I know that's hard to believe), take everything one step at a time... have fun learning things, and don't feel discouraged by the wealth of
information that you may discover when attempting to learn more... and remember that we're all learning here. This knowledge has no bounds.
TP21
|
|
|
kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
Registered: 4-21-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks for the in depth discussion - as you have rightly pointed out, beginners (such as myself) may not be able to digest all of the material at
once, but it remains both fascinating and inspiring to see, even if only generally, where the path leads in the distance, as a complement to enjoying
the view up close. Mark
|
|
|
Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks again to all of you. You have given me a lot to absorb. Pharaoh, I understand your point about approaching the spirit of the makam rather
than just the notes. It is, in a lot of ways, a difficult concept to grasp. Listening repeatedly to the masters, as you suggest, has helped a lot.
The computer helps me personally, because I load up all of my music there, and try to organize along not so much song titles, but makams. So, if I
dig up my ITunes, and look up Hicaz, I will see a bunch of Hicaz taksims. But I also load up the sarkis under the makam so that, when I look up
Hicaz, I will also have song titles, like Hicaz--Hastayim Yasiyorum, or whatever songs are in Hicaz. It works for me. When I am learning a new
makam, I try to pretty much just listen to everything in that makam over and over again and, eventually, it just sort of gets absorbed.
The problem is not just that the material out there in English is a bit limited, but that it is often contradictory. I just picked up a 2 cd
instructional course on the makams, along with an accompanying booklet. Looked up Hicaz, and no microtones are there. I am grateful for maqamworld,
and I am really helped a lot by the discussions that show up on the board here once in a while.
I really think somebody with the knowledge of these makams needs to write a book. There is a need for it. Peter, Al-Halabi--your answers are crystal
clear and immensely helpful. The same goes for answers that Dincer has given (here and on Mav's board). I am not talking about some 500 page
dissertation. I am talking about a short little intro to makams--20 pages or 30 pages for us newbies. Something to think about.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
|
|
|
Mascun
Oud Maniac
Posts: 53
Registered: 12-28-2005
Location: Dordogne, SW France
Member Is Offline
Mood: Top of the world !
|
|
Peter' comment that "simply reading a set of which notes should be played truly lessens what their value is" makes sense to me. I fully agree with
Jonathan, for the compleate beginner that I am, a few guidelines on this subject would help a lot, without being slavish about it.
For example, the "only" difference between Bayati and Kurd, would seem to be the 2d degree, slightly higher in the first mode.
Yet, practising on a series of delightful little Doulabs, a collection of which I have found here in France, one senses the qualitative differences
immediately. And just as obviously the 4th degree is more important in Bayati and the 5th in Kurd. Is this so ?
Where can we get more information on this matter ?
The scales published in that most excellent website maqamworld do give an idea, by printing the 2nd important note of the mode with a white note
figure. Is that a trustworthy guideline ?
Alan
|
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
