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Lintfree
Oud Junkie
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A great new microphone for recording oud.
I did a recording session recently for a film score and the engineer used a tiny mic made by B+K (Bruel and Kjaer) I think I spelled the names right.
It was tiny, big enough to insert through the main rosette but he put it on the top of the oud with a double stick tape arrangement, a tiny stand. You
know how good an oud sounds when a microphone is right next to the face of the oud, as close as it can get? But then you move and bump it? This puts
the capsule a few millimeters from the surface of the top and you can move all you want. It's a new technology as far as the capsule goes and sounds
huge. It was used with a stereo mic (AKGC24)about three feet in front of the main rosette set in an XY pattern. But it was the B+K that blew me away.
A huge golden sound with a minimum of string noise. These run about $500. and are a condenser mics. The sound was so much better than anything I've
ever heard that I thought I would pass it along. If this interests you I will have more exact info soon. I also have a lot of info on various
reasonably priced recording gear and mic techniques especially for the oud and saz. (A cigarette pack sized $300. flash disk recorder that sounds like
Sony Pro-Tools!)  D.L.
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Multi Kulti
Oud Junkie
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Hi David
Is this by any chance the company you mean?
http://www.bksv.com/3035.asp
and any infos are welcome.Recording and oud is always a big subject...
Nikos
P.S. Until now the best sounding experience i had was with the (probably) most expensive micro there is on the market.A Brauner...the sound difference
comparing to a recording session with a top-notch neumann was very big. You can see it there http://www.musik-service.de/Recording-Mikrofon-Brauner-VMA-prx39574...
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SamirCanada
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Hey lintfree. I saw a oud player use the simmilar setup at the National Arts Center here in ottawa. it sounded deep and true on his Sukar oud. And the
beuty like you said is that you can move any way you want!! he didnt have rosettes in the sound holes so the little mic and mini stand where clamped
to the hole. beats a piezo pic-up
it was the player from this group called back strings.
trully amazing players from montreal.
http://www.backstrings.com/
link to a beautyful bayati peice
http://www.backstrings.com/Audio/BayatiAna.mp3
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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lintfree, I'd also be interested in the exact model B&K you are talking about for the oud. sounds pretty cool. cheers.
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corridoio
Oud Junkie
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b&k makes misure instruments and microphones, if you look for their microphones you have to go to http://www.dpamicrophones.com (it's the same factory),
you can also look at shoeps (great mics!), they are in the same range of quality and philosophy of microphones..
In general these microphones (dpa and shoeps) are recognized and used for their clear, true image but don't forget that these mics are usually
connected to beautifull preamplifiers (neve, cadac, millenia, avalon and others that costs usually much more than the mic)
so.. player- instrument-room-mic-preamplifier-converters-workstation (hardware, software).. it's a long chain, in decreasing importance, in my
opinion..
when you recorded, maybe you used a miniature micro from the 4060 serie of dpa(b&k) (omnidirectional pattern)?
I used it to mic violins in recordings with a special paste direct on the face of the instrument (like the one that comes with the shertler c-ducer
contact micro). In italy it's in commerce a similar paste uhu patafix that makes that work without ruin the face of the instrument but I used only
with violins, viola and cello, never with unfinished instruments like ouds..
anyway, b&k for the near sound and akg c24for the room sound!!! you are a lucky guy!!!
ale.
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Lintfree
Oud Junkie
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Multi - That's the company but I didn't see the model we used advertised. Let me find the exact model number and all the info. I'll post it when I get
it.
This was not a contact mic but a small condenser about 10mm long and 5mm around that clipped into a tiny stand that could be stuck onto the top of the
oud with double stick tape.
The engineer that worked on the project said that they were a new thing. The studio where we recorded this had evry kind of microphone ever made it
seemed. But these B+K's were his. The other part of the sound he got was the AKG C-24, stereo tube condensor mic. that had two large diaphrams,
basically two C-12's. He put the C-24 into a figure 8 or XY configuration three feet away and the B+K was (I think) omnidirectional or at least in a
cardioid pattern. So it basically was an "MS" pattern, picking up the instrument from three directions. Left, right and center. The center part of the
setup being the little mic right next to the soundboard. As`I remember there was a phasing thing he ran into (That happens when you use 3 mics) that
he fixed. Then........El Huge! The Rapakousios that ate Chicago! I'll get the model number because I want to get one when I get the money. This little
mic was SO much better than anything I've ever heard that I had to pass it on.
Corridoio was right about the pre-amp. It was a Neve mic pre in the board he used. And a good preamp always helps the sound. But the main thing about
this mic was the proximity to the top of the oud............................3mm from the face. Can't get any closer than that. And sticking the little
stand to an unfinished spruce top was no problem.
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Multi Kulti
Oud Junkie
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By the way congratulations on your Rapakousios oud...it is really really beautiful...i saw it lately in dimitris' website...
Nikos
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Lintfree
Oud Junkie
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Okay now, here's the microphone info. First of all you go to the following website;
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/4061BM/
The designation for the microphone is DPA SMK 4061. As for it being a B+K as I was told it doesn't seem to be a B+K after all. Maybe made by them for
these folks? In any case there it is. They have some other mics and pre-amps too. But that's the little devil they show in the picture.
Multi - I was playing it today after putting new strings on it and tuning it to EABEAD.
Dangerous sound pressure levels. Such an amazing instrument and the workmanship is the best. Dimitris is very easy to work with too and totally
reliable. I bought that oud by looking at the picture of another oud on his website and deciding that it sounded good then ordered one. Boy, was I
right about that! Sometimes Fate works in our favor.
Cool runnings. D.L.
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Benjamin
Oud Junkie
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great microphones but they cost more than the ouds..
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Lintfree
Oud Junkie
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True but it's not so much the microphones themselves but the way they are mounted. There are Audio Technica and AKG electorette microphones that could
do the same thing maybe even better. The trick is keeping the microphone close to the top and since it is small and light it doesn't affect the
movement of the top. I once found out that two different microphone companies both used a third companies capsules and just put them in different
housings. A cool little stand could be carved out of wood. Rosewood would look good.
And for the stage:
The cure for the feedback that we all know and hate seems to be a thing called "rejection", which means that the mic only picks up sound that is close
to it. Electrovoice used to make a dynamic mic that picked up within two inches and rejected everything else (the oud monitor for instance)(the
drummer who is too loud!). Sony used to make lapel mic capsules for everyone and they were really good sounding and cheap. The key is the little stand
that sticks to the top and aims the mic at the top and keeps it there. See what I'm getting at?
Anyway, for me it's an on-going project and I've been at it since the 60's. This little mic thing is the best idea I've seen to date. We'll figure it
out. (Remember that some soundmen are from Satan and have been sent to make you sound BAD!!) Lintfree
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eliot
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Not a new microphone - it's one of the most popular microphones that has been used by concert tapers/live stereo sound recordists, and is also
frequently used by top-tier sound engineers for all kinds of acoustic instrument duties.
DPA/B&K mics are great...
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Lintfree
Oud Junkie
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Hi Eliot. - I know it's been around for a while. I know that the DPA/B+K's are used for violins but I've never seen it used on an oud, stuck to the
top pointing at the top on a cute little stand. They usually had clips or were just taped on. That's what I was referring to when I tagged it as being
"new". New for me. Dick Rosmini first introduced me to B+K microphones back in the 80's, the tube version which to this day are the best sounding
mics ever.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the term "concert tapers": The mic I used is really small which is probably one of the reasons concert
tapers use them to record performances from the audience without anyone knowing that they are taping. You could use a stereo pair of them on your
baseball cap or taped to a pair of glasses and run them down your shirt to one of those chip recorders that are out now and you'll get an entire live
C.D. of the artist you're recording for free. Stealth recording it's called. It's like a sport here in the U.S. Some artists allow this to be done
and others do not like it at all.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
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I think most active performing oud players should buy one of these (DPA/B&K 4060 or 4061) to take with them to concerts (particularly since most
"world music" venues have lack of similarly well-suited microphones for stage duty). Maybe oud concerts would start sounding good for a
change...
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Cyberquills
Oud Junkie
Posts: 182
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would pass it along. If this interests you I will have more exact info soon. I also have a lot of info on various reasonably priced recording gear and
mic techniques especially for the oud and saz. (A cigarette pack sized $300. flash disk recorder that sounds like Sony Pro-Tools!) D.L.
Hey Lintfree
Can you tell me more about the recording gear you mentioned? I'm keen to record my stuff and have NO idea where to start. YOur advice would be most
welcome.
Cheers
CQ
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Lintfree
Oud Junkie
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The flash disk recorder/player is made by several companies and it sounds fantastic. They're small like Cyberquills said but sound big and make great
recordings. Hank Levin bought one for about $300. that has two built-in mics already in an XY pattern. I would ask to see a flash disk recorder by
Roland or Sony. The one Hank has is some strange brand I don't remember but he got it at Best Buy. I'll go looking on Monday.
Waking up at 4AM and being able to just switch on a little machine and record the best thing I will ever play and have it sound as good as a big
studio for $300. seems like a good thing to me. How's things in Perth? Playing down under at a guitar festival soon. Adelaide. Simon Shaheen will be
there. Never met him. Hope to get some pointers from him. Goodonya. Lint
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paulO
Oud Junkie
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Hi Lint,
Check out http://www.oade.com/, they have the better (more bucks) flash type recorders (Fostex, Sony, Marantz, Teac, Edirol). The less expensive stuff is by
Edirol (R-9), Zoom (this has the X-Y stereo pair), and M-Audio.
Cheers..PaulO
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Greg
Administrator
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Thanks for starting this thread Lintfree.
The concept of using a small condenser (with adjustable boom) mounted directly to the face is great.
I have previously tried the AKG C411 condenser, but that was a waste of money. It required way too much EQ to get a result that could best be
described as fairly ordinary.
I normally use a MXL 991 small diaphragm condenser mic. (stand mounted) and that gives excellent results at reasonable levels before feedback (in a
quiet environment)
But thanks to this thread, I have just tried out a wireless headset mic (with boom) and temporarily mounted it on the face with double-sided tape. The
results were exceptional, even at high volume. I found that placing the mic capsule about 10mm from the face, midway between the large and small
soundhole gave the most pleasing results. Of course it can be mounted directly over the large sound hole, but that was a bit too "live" for my
liking.
Regards,
Greg
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Cyberquills
Oud Junkie
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Hi Lint
Ta for the information on the recorders. I'll check it out ASAP. Oh! Adelaide, eh? Nice. Let us all know how your time with Simon goes!
Perth is goin' well!
By the way I checked the link for mike's you mentioned but couldn't find the gizmo that supports it?
Cheers
CQ
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lintfree
True but it's not so much the microphones themselves but the way they are mounted.....The key is the little stand that sticks to the top and aims the
mic at the top and keeps it there. See what I'm getting at?
Anyway, for me it's an on-going project and I've been at it since the 60's. |
Hi Lintfree. I've been looking at the thread and the link for this mic-http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/4061BM/
I have a couple of questions- If this is a condenser mic, does it mean it requires a battery? You mention that it has a little stand that sticks to
the top and aims the mic at the top and keeps it there. Could you clarify for me please if this means the mic clamps on, or uses some form of
adhesive? Would you have any photos you could post showing how it is attached to the top of an oud? Does it hang or attach to a soundhole (with or
without a rosette) in a secure manner? thanks!
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corridoio
Oud Junkie
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hi MatthewW
the dpa 4060 or 4061 need phantom power (48v) from the preamp (or mixer), no battery..
if you look to dpamicrophones.com there are different kit for mounting on differents instruments (mini pincers and other)
but like I said before you can also use a special inert adhesive putty, whit it you can position the microphone everywhere on the face so you can
experiment for different sounds
my only doubt is how much this may stop the vibration of the face..
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Greg
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Further to my above post about using a modified headset mic, I have now changed the arrangement a little, so that the base is mounted on the bowl,
rather than the face.
I have attached some pictures showing this attached to my "picnic" oud by way of double sided tape that provides a little padding and therefore
isolation from the body vibrations. I have used this same tape on instruments for several years and it has never left a mark when removed.
A rubber suction cup would probably be even better.
I have this mic. plugged into a uhf beltpack transmitter and it works extremely well. This one is a cheap Chinese mic, but I would imagine the results
would be even better with a high quality one. But even with this cheap mic. the results are better than I have been able to achieve with any other
method.
Now, to try it out on my Türünz oud 
Regards,
Greg
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SamirCanada
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hey Greg nice looking setup! especialy if it works decently it could be a break trough in getting good sound with a low buget.
I have a question though. Say Iam playing with a rather big and powerfull lebanese wedding band. Iam sure you have a feel for what Iam saying...
keyboards and heavy percussions.
would this work? how about feedback problems? how about picking up too much sound from the rest of the instruments?
thanks
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Greg
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Hi Samir, these headset microphones are designed for close mic tehniques. i.e. to be placed very close to the user's mouth. So it is unlikely to
pickup much other than the close source of sound; In this case, the oud.
I have not used it yet in a live situation, but I have used it in our small practice room, which is equipped with a 300 watt stereo mixer/amp feeding
a pair of JBL EON15 15" 2-way Speakers. It is abundantly clear that this this mic system produces way more level before feedback than using any stand
mic that I have tried in the practice room. And that includes super directional shotgun mics. And it does not suddenly "take off" like most of the
"contact" transducers I have tried, including the AKG C411. It requires much less EQ and produces a much truer sound than I have experienced with any
of the contact transducers.
I think if you had to compete with a raft of electronic instruments and a kit drummer, you'd need to go to a solid body electric oud, or fill your
acoustic oud with foam and use an under saddle pickup system, like the RMC or Fishman.
If, like me, you prefer the amplified sound of an acoustic oud, the above system is worth looking at.
Regards,
Greg
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SamirCanada
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I think I might use it in combination with a contact pickup.
I probably will be able to compete.
by the way the other oud player in the band plays a sukar electric. (sounds like crap btw)
actualy it sounds like a bad electric guitar.
so our sounds dont exactly compete in terms of quality.
thanks for the info.
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rebetostar
Oud Maniac
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Hello,
Our violinist uses the DPA instument mic kit 4061:
http://aes.harmony-central.com/115AES/Content/DPA/PR/IMK4061.html
I think they changed the name of the company from B & K to "Danish Pro Audio". Anyways it sounds totally awesome.. we tried it on bouzouki and
santour as well and it's great.
The flash recorder Lintfree mentioned may be the Zoom H4..the price is right and it's got good reviews. The Sony PCM-D1 looks rad too but for six
times the price!! I'll buy the Zoom.
Re: Sukar electric ouds, I know what you mean Samir.. since I got mine, I've had the pegs replaced and put the Aquila Turkish light strings on
(Jameel's advice) and they rule. I also lined the inside of the electronics cavity with automotive muffler tape, since the electronics are not very
well shielded from e-m noise. With those upgrades and running the Sukar through a Pod XT live effects unit, I'm able to get a decent tone from mine..
not the same as a purely acoustic oud, but nice. I'll post a clip soon. Another thing I may do in future is replace the pickups (nothing more than two
piezo buzzers, each cut into 1/3s and each runnning in series, so you get 6 pickups, split 3 and 3 for seperate control of treble and bass strings).
Actually it's not that bad of a system. Probably a fishman would sound better though.
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