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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Would you order an oud in winter?
Hi,
I'm Chris, a 12-string guitarist from Germany, who want's to learn oud.
As it seems my only option is to order an oud from an arabic luthier ... no chance in germany.
But the question is, wouldn't it be a bad idea to order an oud with the temperatures now falling? Wouldn't the oud get "damaged" during transport by
extreme temperature differences?
Should I better wait half a year?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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There's a little bit of an increased risk with ordering an oud in the winter, but some simple precautions can minimize these risks.
Always have the oud shipped in a case. Upon receiving the oud, leave it in the case, and let it gradually come to room temperature. If there is a
great difference in temperature, leave it in the case (don't open it at all) for a day or so.
I understand your concern, and agree that it is not the ideal time to order an oud, but I will say I have done this a few times without any problems.
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sabbassi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 570
Registered: 4-28-2008
Location: Morocoo
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Mood: happy
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Aymara
I'm building 5 ouds this winter and I live in Holland, if you are insterested you can check the build process. this are pro ouds.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9760
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Marcus
Oud Junkie
Posts: 446
Registered: 11-26-2008
Location: Stuttgart/ South Germany
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Mood: Lost in music
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Hi Chris 
Welcome to the forums. Great, another oudie in germany
Depense in how much money you`ll spend,you can get pro-ouds and usable bedinner-ones "at home".
Here are the link`s:
http://stores.shop.ebay.com/CEM-MusicCenter-CEM-MC 
(sorry for the ebay-link, `could find no homepage)
http://www.lutes-strings.de/ 
Good luck!!
Marcus
Btw:where in g are you located?
Playing the oud is like feeding my soul with peace
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Hi again,
thanks for the nice welcome.
I was planning to order it together with a hardcase, but that isn't a good protection against temperature problems.
To leave it in the case so that it can get to room temperature slowly is a good tip, but we don't know the conditions while it's on transport. The
case can stand in the cold for several hours and later several hours in a much warmer environment like a truck for example. I hope we get a mild
winter and not such a extremely cold one as last year.
| Quote: | | ... I have done this a few times without any problems. |
That's good to know ... that helps calming down 
Hello european neighbour
Very interesting, but I fear an europian luthier might be too expensive for my budget. It would be nice to hear, where you're located in the
Netherlands and what's your price range ... maybe by U2U.
Nice to see your progress here on the forums! Very interesting.
Hallo Nachbar ... yes, I already noticed these CEM ouds, but because I couldn't
find any reports about it's quality, I thought I should better stay away from them. Do you know this dealer and his ouds?
Another point is, that I'm not shure, if I will be successful with learning oud. If I should find out, that I'm not born for this instrument, I could
easily sell my future oud, if it's a good brand like Shehata for example, but a used "no name" oud is much harder to sell ... don't you think so?
A further problem of mine is, that so far I'm absolutely undecided, which kind of oud is the right for me. Should I choose one with a wider finger
board? Which tuning is ideal for a guitarist, who wants to port some guitar techniques to the oud? I also would like a pickup like in my 12-string
western guitar, but so far I'm not good enough informed, what is the best solution. But that is off-topic here ... I should better open a further
thread in the oud forum for these questions.
Regarding the luthier Matthias Wagner ... he's to far above my bugdet limit of max. 1000$.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Multi Kulti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-27-2004
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Mood: skaataa!
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Hallo German Udis 
Chris maybe i have something interesting and affordable for you and i live in NRW too . I send you a pm
Nikos
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whisperoftheoud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 3-17-2007
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Hi,
We are selling our ouds all over the world and if you want , you can check our web page and catalogues too...
Thanks and regards,
http://www.turkishouds.com
http://www.myspace.com/turkishouds
http://www.turkishoud.com
E-mail : info@turkishouds.com
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Good morning!
The world is small 
I never expected to find someone in these forums, who lives in my region, but your username was promising ... the Ruhr Area is often called a multi
culture region, because here are living many people who have their origin in other countries like Turkey, Greeke, Italy, etc.. I like this culture
melting pot.
Thanks for your PM.
Yes, I already visited your nice website ... I really like the main page and the ouds I saw, but I'm more interested in the deep sound of arabic ouds,
because the turkish one's are to high for my taste, which reminds me a bit of flamenco guitars. The reason might be, that I once played bass too.
But that doesn't mean, that I don't like turkish music, I'm a fan of Mercan Dede
Because you show some real beauties on your website, let me ask you: Do you build arabic ouds too? And I wonder if my budget isn't to small (1000$)
... prices in Turkey seem to be higher as in the arabic countries ... maybe drop me a PM with your price range.
PS: BTW, here in my region live many turkish people, so that I was a bit astonished, that I couldn't find a shop so far, that sells turkish
instruments. But maybe I was only too blind?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Aymara, welcome to our little community. I would like to make a suggestion or two, if I may.
You might be an unusual person to whom this does not apply, but most people who pick up the oud never put it down, except to go to the bathroom. There
is something profoundly emotional about the oud, and there's a good reason it's as important as it is in the entire Middle East. I play bass and
guitar, as well as keyboards, and the oud has completely enchanted me.
It's not worth considering "porting some guitar techniques", as this is very different instrument. The neck is narrow, and that's how it should be.
The instrument has been perfected over many centuries, millenia in fact. You do not normally chord more than 2 notes at once, and usually none,
because single notes are surprisingly more than enough, the sound is so thick, and big chords don't matter for reasons you will discover in time.
Get as good an instrument as you can afford, after learning everything you can learn from reading, because it will be the main instrument in your life
for some time to come.
Try to only buy from someone who will let you return the instrument if you don't like it, but you do not have to get an instrument from a star
luthier. I'll tell you frankly that there's a bit of elitism and ostentation here like in any group of passionate people, that's fine when you really
know what you're doing or can afford not to, but you're not looking for your 5th and most perfect showpiece oud, you don't need a first oud that has
the most divinely beautiful rose, or is a copy of the world's greatest oud, or is entirely made of pieces of Noah's ark.
Do a lot of reading in this forum's archives, use the search, there may not be hundreds of posts per subject, but you can find the answers to all your
questions.
Unless you have an expert on tap helping you, ordering from a far away luthier without knowing what you're doing is perhaps more courageous than
sensible. You're better off buying a used instrument from one of the forum's members, people often sell their (perfectly good) first and second ouds
to help finance an 1896 Yoplay Nughat with a cracked soundboard.
You can get an oud in Germany, I'm not local, but I see both Turkish and Arabic types, and if you take your time, $1000 is more than enough to get a
good instrument. That way you're not dealing with Winter issues either. Take a trip or two just to go to some shops where you can try some
instruments, you need to have a chance to develop a hands-on sense of what's available and what matters to you. Ask some of the German members to help
you with this.
Don't bother aiming to buy a "trial instrument" with the idea of selling it, if you don't want it chances are nobody else will be jumping for it
either, you'll end up spending more money and you'll have to be buying your "real" instrument within a month, so focus on doing your homework and
don't rush to buy until you know your first oud can serve you well. You'll end up with more than one rather quickly anyway, but that way at least you
won't have any unplayable orphans lying around.
Another detail. Get the standard plectrum type and start out using that. You can play with your fingers at times, but don't bother with a small guitar
pick, they don't work, and nothing can get the ideal sound but the standard "reesha".
Try to find a teacher right away for a couple of lessons to get you started. Unless you plan on twice a week lessons, get Marina's book/DVD, get to
know all the linked web-sites, and get OudProf's DVD, which is 4.6 GB of lessons, references, videos, examples, tips.
Though you may in time play all sorts of music on the oud, including stuff you already know, consider it a God-given chance to discover a whole new
approach to tonality, scales, composition, etc., so plan to be learning the Arabic system that was conceived around the oud, because it's beautiful,
it's a new world, and it goes with the oud like water for a fish.
Welcome to the second part of your musical life, and if you need any help, just ask, and someone will help you.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Thanks Fernand!
I'm just a bit anxious to get used to a fretless instrument.
| Quote: | | It's not worth considering "porting some guitar techniques", as this is very different instrument. |
Yes, for shure it is, but there are a few techniques, that are portable and one of them is important for me ... it's a bit hard to explain, because
it's a mix of special picking technique and the use of an delay ... that's why I need a pickup sooner or later.
| Quote: | | ..., and big chords don't matter for reasons you will discover in time. |
I already know that phenomenon a bit from my 12-string. But some people like new approaches, like my currently favorite oud player Mehdi Haddab of
DuOud ... look at this VIDEO for example where he plays electric oud or remember the oud players that tried a step into flamenco.
But I bet most people here would prefer his Taksim. Though I'm impressed by this music and especially it's virtuosity, Taksims currently sound similar to my ears as free jazz Something like THIS currently sounds more familiar to my europian ears. But we will see how soon this might change.
| Quote: | | Get as good an instrument as you can afford, ... |
I think with guitars it's not different ... you need a minimum quality to avoid frustrations.
| Quote: | | ..., because it will be the main instrument in your life for some time to come. |
I hope so, too.
| Quote: | | I'll tell you frankly that there's a bit of elitism and ostentation here like in any group of passionate people, ... |
Yes, I know that from photography.
| Quote: | | You can get an oud in Germany, ... |
Yes, maybe a good used one, but with shops I wasn't lucky so far ... only the above mentioned CEM ouds, but that shop is very far away.
| Quote: | | ..., get Marina's book/DVD, ... |
I think, it's THIS one?
| Quote: | | Welcome to the second part of your musical life, ... |
Hehe ... that sounds promising.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
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Hey let us know if you decide to check out the CEM shop... I haven't heard anything about them and would love some feedback about thier shop....
Chris Walters
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Maybe Marcus can help here? The CEM shop is located in Mannheim, which is not far from Stuttgart, where Marcus lives.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I think, that's not needed, when I read THIS Diskussion about CEM ouds ... just what I expected.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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That's a long thread you refer to. So bottom line do you think you can live with one of CEM's ouds? Pegs slip until you apply a bit of hard soap and
chalk, and learn to push them in as you tune. This is not the oud's strong side, but that's the classical design. Planetary geared pegs are expensive.
Machine tuners are ugly and heavy.
That's the German shop I was seeing and thinking you should take a trip to, get there in the morning and spend the rest of the day trying different
instruments, and telling the salespeople you are a very rich anarchist and they should leave you alone.
Mehdi Haddab plays electric but his technique is strictly oud.
Nein, nein, nein, ich glaube dieser (mit DVD) ist ganz besser
http://www.amazon.de/Basics-Oud-DVD-Marina-Toshich/dp/0786678631/re...
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Good Morning!
I'm still very sceptic for several reasons:
1. We have one happy customer in the linked discussion, but we don't know, if our french friend could solve the problem with the tuning pegs.
2. All of their ouds seem to be turkish models, which might be a downside (not as bassy as an arabic model) or an advantage (both tunings can be
used). On the other hand I expect, that it would be easier for a guitarist to get familiar with an arabic tuning, than with a turkish ... or am I
wrong? Fact is, I find the sound of arabic ouds more "attractive". Turkish ouds remind me a bit of the sound of flamenco guitars.
3. Though they have models with a pickup already build in, the jack, where you plug in the cable is unfavourably placed in that region, that "sits" on
your thigh, while you play. On my acoustic guitar, this jack is placed on the bottom and combined with the guitar belt holder. I would have expected a
similar placement on the oud.
| Quote: | | This is not the oud's strong side, but that's the classical design. Planetary geared pegs are expensive. |
When anybody buys an expensive high quality instrument, be it oud, violin or another with the same tuning peg concept, I would nowadays expect
something more "comfortable" than this historical design.
| Quote: | | Machine tuners are ugly and heavy. |
If we have mechanics in mind like on guitars, yes. But how about THESE so called "pegheds"? I'm astonished, that something like this isn't standard on high quailty ouds. Are these babies availlable for oud now
and if so, what's the price? Are there maybe other manufacturers with a similar concept?
| Quote: | | That's the German shop I was seeing and thinking you should take a trip to, ... |
They are far away from my location and the highway route is a pain ... lots of traffic jam.
| Quote: | | ..., and telling the salespeople you are a very rich anarchist and they should leave you alone. |
Hehe, when they hear me play, they would call me an oud terrorist ... I think it would be wise to take an advanced oud player with me, if I ever
should visit this shop.
| Quote: | | Mehdi Haddab plays electric but his technique is strictly oud. |
He plays both (acoustic too) and yes, he mainly plays the "classical" oud style.
| Quote: | | Nein, nein, nein, ich glaube dieser (mit DVD) ist ganz besser ... |
Wow, where did you learn german ... thanks for the tip!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
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Keep in mind that the fingers are extraordinary precise instruments
Tuning a oud with standard pegs, provided they (and the pegbox) are well-made, is VERY accurate. With slight finger pressure on the pegs you can do
micro-fine adjustments
without any trouble.
I advise you not to bother with this. If your budget is not unlimited (these geared things are expensive), I would advise you to concentrate on more
essential aspects: the sound of course, but also the quality of the fingerboard, a good action for playability (not too high, not too low).
Good luck!
Dan
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Hi Danielo!
Mmh, the more I read about mechanical pegs, the more I ask myself: Why not?
Look, what I found HERE ... 110 Euros for 12 pegs from Gotoh might be worth a consideration.
| Quote: | | ..., but also the quality of the fingerboard, a good action for playability (not too high, not too low). |
That's what I consider most important of all, especially for beginners.
I became to know many guitarists, who told me that they had a hard time trying out a 12-string. But when they tried mine, where the strings have a
very good action (height over the fingerboard) and where I chose thinner strings as most others, they began loving this instrument.
I expect it to be exactly the same with ouds.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Marcus
Oud Junkie
Posts: 446
Registered: 11-26-2008
Location: Stuttgart/ South Germany
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Mood: Lost in music
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Hi Chris
I played a CEM oud once, the one witch is about 230€. It was not to bad,like Owain Hawks said in the other thread,not loud , good action and the
sound was o.k.But it was a turkish oud and you like a arab one, right?
About the tuning difference, there are lots of different tunings,but the "standard"tuning on turkish ouds is just 1 hole tone higher than the
arabic.
Untill 1 1/2 years ago I called myself a guitarrist and bass player with a few other instruments beside. Since I fell in love with the oud I`m a
oudplayer and the most other instruments are somewhere lost in space
Dont worry about the difference between guitar and oud ,and the unfretted neck...everything comes easily on its own!!
I totally agree with fernandreynoud: A new chapter of your musical life starts as soon as you find your first oud!!
The pegheads are amazing, they cost around 80€ per piece.Perfect for Violins etc., but unfortunately a oud have 11 or 12 pegs.Just a bit to much,
for this amount of money I`ll buy another oud (and another....and
another.....to be continued )
cheers,
Marcus
Playing the oud is like feeding my soul with peace
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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The first time I heard an oud, was when Avishai Cohen's album Continuo came out. As soon as I heard THIS song, Amos Hoffman infected me with the oud virus. A few days later I went to my favorite Jazz & World Music shop and bought an album of
Rabih Abou-Khalil: Journey to the Center of an Egg.
I also like DuOud, Jean Pierre Smadj & Mehdi Haddab, very much.
So I think, I should get an arabic oud, don't you think so?
| Quote: | | ...everything comes easily on its own!! |
I hope so.
| Quote: | | Just a bit to much, for this amount of money I`ll buy another oud
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That's why I find the Japanese pegs from Gotoh promising ... 110 Euro for a set of 12 pegs is a different house's number, as we say in Germany
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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If you can get a decent CEM turkish for 230-350 that's maybe a good oud to start with. If people have tried them, and the action is low enough, you're
probably OK. BUT I WOULD GET ON THE TRAIN AND GO PICK ONE OUT IN PERSON. It's not true you have to spend $1000. You'll have your Turkish out of the
way. You'll tune it Arabic, and it being a little smaller is not so bad. You won't have a heart attack if you scratch it with the pickup. Save the
rest of your $1000 for a very specific Arabic later on after you have a real idea of what you really like.
If you can really get those pegheads for 110 a SET? I hadn't ever seen them that cheap. That's well worth it. Even with the cost of someone with the
right reamers installing them.
The wood pegs are part of the experience if it turns out the pegheads are too expensive. There are always problems with the wound strings "jumping",
or on the contrary staying put, while the inner core slides and stretches. The nut is as much a problem, hard to get it just right. In the end most of
us have problems of one sort or another with pegs, but it's easier to just live with them than really solve the problem, because it's trickier than it
seems. One peg on an instrument will turn out to be more tapered, so if you aren't pushing it in enough, it's just waiting to work out on you while
you're tuning ... sproink, down an octave. But if you soap/chalk them, they stay put. So now they're hard to turn. You take a running start ... and
overshoot, undershoot, almost there, tap it, boink, down a "notch".  It's no big
deal, you curse a little, so what. The geared machines are absurdly ugly. The panetaries I see are expensive. The wood pegs are a bit of a pain, but
there's one consolation, and that's how well the tuning holds once the strings stabilize. The tuning will hold within 5 cents most of the day in the
studio, and that's amazing. Anybody who thinks 11 strings is a nuisance, try 110 strings on a harpsichord, and they barely hold to within 5 cents all
day.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Regarding arabic ouds the question is, which design would serve me best. Regarding optics, I could fell in love with THIS Shehata model. I especially like ebony. On the other hand I find Samir Azar's model with the floating bridge and it's "simple" design
interesting ... I would expect, that open sound holes sound better (or just louder?) than the one's with ornaments?
But because I want to be able to dampen the strings sometimes with my heel of the hand when picking, I ask myself, if a fixed bridge might be the
better choice.
| Quote: | | If you can really get those pegheads for 110 Euros a SET? I hadn't ever seen them that cheap. |
That's what was mentioned on the linked page ... I'll have to verify german prices.
| Quote: | | Even with the cost of someone with the right reamers installing them. |
I think, it should be no problem to find a luthier to install them here in Germany.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Marcus
Oud Junkie
Posts: 446
Registered: 11-26-2008
Location: Stuttgart/ South Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lost in music
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Hi again Chris,
| Quote: |
So I think, I should get an arabic oud, don't you think so? |
Hmmm, my first one I bought in istanbul because I listen to turkish music since years.I have a baglama before and it was kind of a lucky fortuity that
a guy plays on a oud when I step in the shop.
Back home I searched "oud" on youtube and the journey
through arabic music beginns, so at next I bought a set of arab strings and tune my turkish oud arabic.
Than I found THIS
on youtube.I was totally freaked oud about the sound of this ouds....and change strings again back to turkish.
Lond speech-short sense( like we say in germany:rolleyes
I end up with 1 turkish and 1 arab oud(till now)
Marcus
Playing the oud is like feeding my soul with peace
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Chris, you see you're asking a lot of questions that nobody can answer so quickly. If you don't have the patience and time, a decent oud might hold
you until you figure it all out.
do a lot of reading and go to mannheim.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi again!
The price is correct. The standard price ... see HERE in Gotoh's store ... 34.10$ per set and one set is 4 pegs, as mentioned on the above linked page.
4 sets = 136.40$
1 assembling tool = 7.70$
_____________________
= 144.10$ (~ 97.40€)
And which one do you prefer? Or does that change from time to time?
Thanks god, I'm not in a hurry ... though it's not easy to be patient
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi again,
there are several choices that you have to make when you order a oud (besides the quality of course). Once you have solved the arabic/turkish dilemma
you should ask yourself (e.g. for an arabic):
-fixed bridge or floating bridge ?
-which string length? 58,5, 60 or 61,5 cm ?
-11 or 13 strings?
-classical or extended fingerboard?
-which woods will give me the sound I like?
-Syrian-type, Egyptian type, Iraqi-type,...
... and so on (not mentioning the esthetical aspects).
I would advice you either:
-to choose a cheap (but decent) oud to start. When you will know what you want, you will keep this first as a travel instrument for instance.
-to buy a better quality one on the used market. If you find a good deal, you can play it for a while and then, if it does not correspond to your
wishes, you can re-sell it at more or less the same price in order to buy your dreamed oud.. I saw for instance, in France, two Sukar ouds (which are
good quality instruments from Aleppo) in new condition for less than 200 euros, during last month.
Take your time
Dan
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