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My next oud project

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Jameel - 4-19-2005 at 03:08 PM

Habbebkum,

First of all, check out http://www.mimf.com. Just tons of info there. A bit specific to oud, but a huge of amount of general useful info.

Your question could generate a huge answer with a giant list of tools. Instead of telling you what tools to buy, you should get a good basic woodworking book and get a good idea of how certain things are done before you even cut wood. (You didn't say how much woodworking you've done) Taunton press and finewoodworking.com are good sources. Instrument making (especially ouds) is really just another type of woodworking, and the joints and techniques are the same, but refined and slightly specialized. There are plenty of lists out there of a basic hand toolkit, and this is what you should start with. In oud making, power tools are good for roughing out peices of wood, and you can get by with a decent 12" bandsaw, and a hand drill. But your first "tool" purchase by far should be Richard Hankey's book. Don't start without it. Good luck, and please share your progress with us. I'm still waiting for someone to post their project.

habeebkum - 4-19-2005 at 03:27 PM

hi jameel. first of all thank you for your advice. i have checked out richards book and i will purchase it next week cos i am moving house tomorrow and have alot to do. but i will definately get it. and i will also check out the websites that u suggested. as for my woodwork....well....all i've ever made is simple things like tables

i enjoy making things tho and i am planning on taking myself thru a slow but consistent plan and hopefully(sometime before the end of 2006) i should be on my way to making my first oud. i just think if i take it up as a hobby and carry on doing that for the rest of my life, it will give me alot of satisfaction and fun. so i hope that you and Dr. Oud (richard) might help me achieve this. thanks again :bounce:

john (beloved) habib - 4-26-2005 at 10:22 PM

WOWOWOWOW

Dr. Oud - 5-14-2005 at 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by habeebkum
to all the oudmakers out there, is it possible to ask for a basic list of tools needed to either repair or even to make a complete oud? and a rough price for them?

I have seen a master maker working with very few tools. You can have your wood supplier or a local wood shop cut all your material to rough size, (allow +1/16 inch each surface and edge for fitting and surface finishing). You only neet a long and short plane, a few chisels (1/4in, 1/2in, maybe 1in)., A drill motor and peg reamer, a tape or yard stick for measurements, some single edge razor blades for scraping, sandpaper, sanding blocks made from scrap wood, and as many clamps as you can afford. Clamps can actually be made, from hardwood and machine screws. You'll find out what you need as you go, so get started already!
Another great source of building info is Frank Ford's Items for Luthier's pages. You also might try the The Guild of American Luthiers for a wealth of building information published in their newsletters.
Other useful links: Assistance for Novice Lute Makers , Using Hide Glue, Finishing Your Instrument With Tru Gun Oil , LMI Pegs.

Dr. Oud - 5-14-2005 at 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Oud

Quote:

Originally posted by habeebkum
to all the oudmakers out there, is it possible to ask for a basic list of tools needed to either repair or even to make a complete oud? and a rough price for them?

As for prices, avoid cheap tools from Chinese or American steel, they're not worth the money you think you're saving. Japanese and European steel tools are a bargain at twice the price. You can actually find good tools at many antique stores. Pre-WWII American tool steel is better than any made today, and often less than new tools of lower quality.

Next Part---Pegbox

Jameel - 5-22-2005 at 01:23 PM

I scraped the inside of the bowl and glued paper strips to the joints. Nothing too interesting here to photograph....

So on to the next part: the pegbox.

I make the pegbox before the neck, because it's better to shape the neck to fit the pegbox than vice-versa.

I'm making this pegbox according to master luthier Dincer Dalkilic's design, many thanks to him for providing me with it.

What makes it unique is the placement of the pegs. They aren't simply placed along the center line of the peg box walls. The holes are placed in a specific pattern which does not allow any of the strings to lay on top the underlying strings. It's a clever design, and I look forward to seeing how it works.

I attached a pic here of my pegbox drawing, and a PDF for ouds makers who may want a better copy.

The PDF

Jameel - 5-22-2005 at 01:25 PM

Jay - 5-22-2005 at 09:11 PM

Hi Jameel, Dr. Oud, and other members! I'll begin constructing my first oud soon, and I just wanted to drop a line and say that your websites and your posts in this forum have really educated and inspired me. I think it's great that you're sharing your knowledge here for everyone else's benefit- the internet is such a wonderful thing! And don't forget all the work Mike puts into this site to make it all happen!

To reciprocate I'm planning on posting my oud-making progress here for you to see. I'm not sure what to expect with the project.. I'm a beginner woodworker and am sure instrument-making is beyond my current skills, but I like to aim high. I just hope I'll have the patience to make this all worthwhile.

I won't start on the oud until I finish my current woodworking project- hopefully in a couple of weeks. Until then here's a picture of the raw materials I've gathered so far:

The long board laying across the back of the bench is African Mahogany which I'll use for the ribs and neck; it's a relatively inexpensive wood and fits the budget for my first project. Also, this way I can afford extra material in case I need to redo something along the way.

On top of the mahogany are my block plane, scraper set, and handsaws. The sheet laying across it is some mahogany crotch veneer which I hope will be suitable for the pick guard.

Stacked underneath the veneer on the front side are the two halves of the soundboard, made of Western Red Cedar (I spent half my budget on this, following Dr. Oud's heuristics).

The ends of the rosewood purfling strips overlap a little on the cedar, and underneath them are billets to cut the braces out of (also Western Red Cedar).

Underneath the saws are the ebony bridge and fingerboard blanks- I hope to resaw the fingerboard blank and use part of it as the neck stiffener. There's also a little peice of bone for the nut.

Then there are a few of my chisels, and most importatly Richard Hankey's book!

I'm still lacking a few items, in particular something making for the rosettes.. I'd like to try making it from horn, though I don't know if I'll be able to work with it. Fortunately I'm at the state agricultural college and there's plenty of farms nearby- I hope I can find some cow horns for cheap and experiment with them. With the exception of the African mahogany and the veneer, the woods were purchased by mail from Allied Lutherie.

Once again, I want to say that you guys have been a big help in educating me and motivating me to make this happen. Hope you'll look at my future posts and perhaps give me the advice I know I'll need

Jay

Jameel - 5-23-2005 at 04:40 AM

Jay,

Welcome to the forums!

I'm very happy that you'll be sharing your oud project with us! I can't wait to see your new thread. Keep us posted, and good luck with the project!

Jameel

Jay - 5-23-2005 at 07:07 AM

Thanks, Jameel- the thread should be started soon; I'm really looking forward to this!

Jay

Dr. Oud - 5-23-2005 at 11:40 AM

Way to go Jay! You've got a great start with your set up. the bench is going to be your best friend. I only have one suggestion, and that's to use a lighter wood for the bridge. Ouds bridges should be light weight, and the black ones you've seen were probably painted black, rather than ebony. Walnut or maple are good common medium hardwoods that are light enough for the bridge. It looks like you're stating a collection of scrapwood for pads and fixtures. I've got 3 or 4 boxes of scrap and I often use pieces that saner people would throw out. Welcome to the oud builder's asylum!

Jay - 5-23-2005 at 02:57 PM

It's really great to get advice directly from the experts

I've started my own thread now 'cause I know I'll be embarrassed to put pictures of my work next to the craftmanship of Jameel :bowdown:

It's here: Building my first oud

Jay

Making the Pegbox

Jameel - 5-29-2005 at 05:37 PM

The first time I made a pegbox I didn't drill the holes for the pegs until the pegbox was assembled. This caused some blowout on the inside of wall. So this time I cut a thick piece of wood the shape of the pegbox, sanded it smooth, and drilled the holes before I even cut the pegbox walls. This way the pieces match perfectly and the holes will be lined up spot on. It was also quicker to do it this way, since I did all the operations to both sides simultaneously. I even ended up with an extra side in case I botch one.

SamirCanada - 5-29-2005 at 08:17 PM

thanks for that jameel I needed to know how to build a peg box without doing double the work it needs...
Verry glad your sharing your work Jameel
Samir

Jay - 5-31-2005 at 02:22 PM

Wow Jameel that's a really effective and efficient solution. You are truly the man. Also, I like Dincer's design to keep the strings clear of the other pegs. That's cool.

Keep it up!

Jay

mavrothis - 6-2-2005 at 06:04 PM

That's really great Jameel! Nice work man, as usual.

I just wanted to make a note that to get the most out of using this arrangement of the pegs, you should string the oud a little differently than usual. In effect, the two bass courses don't change their positions in the pegbox, but the other four courses do.

Here is a little pic of how Dincer/Cinucen came up with the most effective string-to-peg set-up with this peg arrangement (I used general numbers for courses and alpha or beta for string order within a course since we all use different tunings):

SamirCanada - 6-2-2005 at 06:45 PM

I cant make sense of this Mav Iam sorry about this..
I get confused at the number 3 string. It seems like 6 5 and 4 follow the order. And when I look at the number 3 string the string go past the pegs numbered 3.
Maybe its just me but Its probably just a typo.
Cheers
Samir

OR.. the strings here arent placed in Dincer's way. Maybe thats the case?

Jameel - 6-2-2005 at 07:16 PM

I'll post a drawing soon of Dalkilic/Tanrikorur's stringing. It's basically the same as Mav's pic, but it shows the strings too.

mavrothis - 6-2-2005 at 09:22 PM

Hi Samir,

Sorry bro, this is just a general pic of a pegbox, ignore the actual strings here. Just follow the labeling next to the pegs. Maybe these diagrams can be a little better for you.

Here the 4th (A) is where normally your 3rd (D) would be. Your 3rd (D) is now where your 2nd (G) would be. The 2nd (G) is where the 1st (C) would be, and the 1st (C) is where the 4th (A) would be.

Here is a pic for Arabic tuning:

mavrothis - 6-2-2005 at 09:23 PM

Here is one for Turkish tuning:

samzayed - 6-2-2005 at 11:18 PM

Mav and Jameel, this is really interesting to me, I have a couple questions:

(1) Is alpha below beta, just as 1 is below 2? (if you are holding the oud in playing position and looking down)

(2) Is this stringing technique helpful for a standard pegbox, or only for those made from this special design?

Jameel - 6-3-2005 at 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by samzayed
Mav and Jameel, this is really interesting to me, I have a couple questions:

(1) Is alpha below beta, just as 1 is below 2? (if you are holding the oud in playing position and looking down)

(2) Is this stringing technique helpful for a standard pegbox, or only for those made from this special design?

I guess I won't post that drawing--Mav's illustration does the job.

Sam,

Yes, alpha below Beta, the peg closer to the nut tunes the lower string. This is useful for a standard pegbox too. I've seen Simon Shaheen (who was also a friend of Tanrikorur) use this stringing pattern, except the C and G courses (arabic tuning) are reversed (the C is in the more typical place--first two pegs on the right). Although I tend to agree that Dalkilic's pattern is better. Here's why: since the high C course is farthest to the right on the fingerboard, stringing to the first set of pegs (right sight of pegbox) can cause more extreme angles on the string, whereas using the next set of pegs allows the strings to enter the pegbox more gently. This is especially important since the C course is the thinnest and more prone to stress. My thoughts....

SamirCanada - 6-3-2005 at 02:48 PM

thanks Mav I just wasnt shure.
Turns out I was thinking of a way to string the oud differently. This is almost the same way has I have mine.
Do you guys also find that you get better results when the string winds towards the thicker side of the peg? I mean the more you turn the peg the more string material goes up towards the side of the peg box where the peg is thikest. I find that when I do that my strings hold nicely. If on the other end the string is winded towards the thinest peg side then It can make the pegs slip. Also if you have too much string material and it touches the side of the box then you can puch the peg down and it becomes loose that way. I guess if your pegs are perfectly reemed and tight then you dont have that problem. Only people with cheaper ouds(like me!) may use that technique to get better functioning pegs.

Pegbox.........

Jameel - 6-4-2005 at 06:02 PM

I did a little inlay on the back of the pegbox. I was contemplating how to cut the mortise on a concave surface, and I came up blank, so I decided to cut the mortise before I bent the piece to shape. I then glued the piece to the back of the pegbox walls, trimmed it flush and glued in my inlays. Next step is to fit some pegs. At this pace, I'll have this oud done in maybe another year! Ugh! :shrug:

mavrothis - 6-4-2005 at 06:50 PM

Wow,

Beautiful, beautiful work and imagination. It seems to me not only are you making a very beautiful work of art, you're also moving at a very decent pace too.

Thanks for sharing again!

mav

Gabriel - 6-4-2005 at 07:11 PM

Thanks for your website Jameel, i remember folowing your last project
it was great!! :applause:

it just shows you where patients gets you

you improve every time

keep it up

Neck block notch

Jameel - 6-5-2005 at 02:37 PM

Thanks Mav and Gabriel! :wavey:

You motivate me.

The Doc (Richard Hankey) has a fantastic way of tying the back, neck and pegbox together with a "stringer" of wood that runs through the neck and pegbox. It stiffens the neck and locks the pegbox to the neck with lots of glue area. The only possible weakness, in my opinion, in the whole arrangement is the fit of the stringer in the neck block in the back. On my first oud I made this fit extremely precisely, but I have always thought that if this joint somehow failed over time and wood movement, there would be no mechanical means to hold it together. Now maybe I'm being a bit too tedious, since the entire oud is held together with glue anyway. Nevertheless, this particular joint cannot be clamped, but only slid into place, the fit of the joint being the only means by which a good glue bond is achieved. I had the idea to combine a dovetailed mortise with Richard's stringer. I'll glue wedges at the end of the stringer where it enters the neck block. This doesn't solve the problem of not being able to clamp this joint, it will still have to be slid into place and rely on the fit only for a good bond, but now I'll have some mechanical advantage of the dovetail, which in itself will resist the pull of the neck under string tension much more than a flat stringer, which has no mechanical advantage. The dovetail doesn't strengthen the glue bond, it prevents a weakening of the glue bond by eliminating the potential movement found in the straight stringer method. In effect since I will be adding the wedges to make the stringer a dovetail, I considered that this joint is really no different than the straight stringer. But what makes this different is that I am able to clamp the wedges onto the stringer guaranteeing a much better glue bond than simply sliding the joint together.

I cut the dovetailed mortise with a tilting table saw jig, and cleaned up the bottom with a chisel.

SamirCanada - 6-5-2005 at 09:06 PM

well done Jameel.
Looks like this method is going to provide a lot of resisstance to any type of pull. It seems the end of the neck will lock in there verry nicely.
Great work
Samir

Neck...

Jameel - 6-12-2005 at 04:39 PM

The jig is to position the wedges accurately.

I also didn't cut through the pegbox this time, but left some material intact, for extra strength.

Next step is to shape the neck round.

tezza - 6-12-2005 at 09:24 PM

Jameel, that inlay on the back of the pegbox looks awesome and the stringer idea looks like it's going to work out fine. Brilliant work once again.

oudplayer - 6-15-2005 at 02:53 PM

hi
jameel its keeps getting beter
thx

Neck shaping and inlay

Jameel - 6-15-2005 at 06:41 PM

Thanks for the compliments. I'm hoping you are all learning as much as I am this time. I've never done inlay to this extent before, and I have to admit it doesn't take as long as I though it would. It's tedious work, but the rewards are amazing.

Here's a couple shots of the neck after final shaping. I inlayed the peices (they were extra thick to allow for the curve of the neck) before shaping the neck so I had a nice flat surface to work on. When I glued the neck together, the sides slipped a little and I had to refit at the neck and pegbox, not much, maybe 1/128", so it went fast. I should have made a jig for holding the neck halves in perfect alignment while gluing. Butting them to the neck block isn't enough, especially when the clamp pressure is applied.....

On to the face.....

samzayed - 6-15-2005 at 07:26 PM

Wow Jameel, I am amazed at your craft. I can't wait to try it myself :airguitar:

Hmm . . Are you sure you don't have any Nahat blood in your genes? :bowdown:

SamirCanada - 6-16-2005 at 09:22 AM

You continue like this Iam gona be forced to order one!!

)
Keep it up Jameelo

Wow Jameel

john (beloved) habib - 6-17-2005 at 08:48 AM

I am absolutely AMAZED! I can't believe the amazing work you're doing and I am totaly in AWE! Keep up the work!

Maybe you're going to work on building a Kanun some time

hehe...

Thanks for letting us in on the work you're doing... it's absolutely fantastic.

I wish I could make one! hehe... take care

Jameel - 6-17-2005 at 03:38 PM

Thanks guys! You're too nice! I'm just an amateur. Hey, this thing could end up sounding like a banjo!

I turned a little finial for the cap on the end of the peg box. I used Tagua nut for the cap and the finial. First time turning this material. I shattered two nuts before I got this far, just about gave me a heart attack! This stuff is hard to turn, but it polishes up nicely. Not quite as white as bone, but more creamy than bone.

Andy - 6-20-2005 at 07:26 PM

Jameel, your work is absolutly BEAUTIFUL and sure that everyone keeping up with your progess beleives the same. I sincerely hope it sounds as beautiful as it looks. We are all waiting patiently for the finished work of art.

http://www.geocities.com/antronig/oud.html

kasos - 6-21-2005 at 12:01 PM

Thank you so much for the time and effort you spent sharing your project with the rest of us. Like so many others, I'm thrilled and inspired by your progress, and stand in awe of your skill and dedication. All the best!

Mark/Kasos

revaldo29 - 6-21-2005 at 07:40 PM

Man Jameel,

I'm just thinking, with a bowl that beautiful, how awesome is the face going to look? I can't wait to see it my friend.

regards,
Adnan

Pegs

Jameel - 7-5-2005 at 06:28 PM

Thanks everyone for such nice comments. I really appreciate it. Thanks also to Mike for making the best place on the web for oud. Making this oud would'nt be half as fun if I couldn't share the experience with you all. :airguitar:

I haven't had much time (hey, it's summer) to work on the oud the last few weeks, but I did get the pegs fit in the pegbox. I was thinking of posting a step by step on how to do it, and I will if there is enough interest. These are Indian rosewood (Palisander) pegs with a mother of pearl dot on the end. The MOP really adds a nice sparkle to the pegs. These are really nicely made pegs. I got them from http://www.tonewood.sk a company in Slovakia. They ended up costing a little less than $4 each, so they aren't the cheapest, but I do like them. They'll match the rosewood fingerboard and pickguard I plan to use.

Bone slabs for the shamsiyya

Jameel - 7-5-2005 at 06:31 PM

I finally found a good source for bone slabs for shamsiyya. I got these from Jantz Supply (http://www.knifemaking.com). They are about $7 a pair, and way bigger than any guitar saddle. Not cheap, but if you've ever cut bone on a bandsaw, you'd be happy to pay this. I'll thin these down and glue them to some plywood for the large and small rosettes.

Gabriel - 7-5-2005 at 08:21 PM

Those pegs sound great jameel i am currently looking for some how much would a set be?
those inlays are great :applause:

i realy fell sorry for those who are blind and cannot see the art of nahats
(but can hear them)
did you put some sort of finish on it seems darker than the first pictures?
i agree with Adnan the face should be a great
:applause:

habeebkum - 7-6-2005 at 04:04 AM

brilliant work jameel. it all looks so accurate and clean. please post step by step instructions on how u fitted the pegs.........................

is rosewood illegal in the us?

revaldo29 - 7-6-2005 at 09:59 AM

Hey jameel,

I've heard something about rosewood being illegal in the U.S. Is this true? Is it just illegal to sell or own as well?

Adnan

Jameel - 7-6-2005 at 01:26 PM

Brazilian rosewood has been on the endagered species list since 1991. It's not illegal to own it or even buy it. It's not imported much anymore though since it's difficult to determine if it's legal or not. Luthiers still have plenty of rosewoods to choose from, like East Indian, Madagasca, Rio, Amazon, among others.

Jameel - 7-6-2005 at 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gabriel
Those pegs sound great jameel i am currently looking for some how much would a set be?

I got them here: https://www.tonewood.sk/frames.php

Page 4 under "fittings"

Gabriel - 7-7-2005 at 09:48 PM

thank you jameel i did not know how cheap pegs were!!
jameel,next time simon shaheen comes to your house he will be confused with his nahat and the one you are making !!!!!!
by the way what is ebonized??

SamirCanada - 7-8-2005 at 02:53 PM

Hey Jameel,
I would like to add my name to the request of peg fitting tutorial version Jameelo!!

I just dont find precice enough the way its explained elsewhere.
Thanks
Samir

Jameel - 7-8-2005 at 07:27 PM

I'll post the tutorial it in it's own thread.

Qamriyya/Eyoun

Jameel - 7-10-2005 at 09:22 AM

This is the bone pictured above epoxied to 1/8" thick aircraft plywood from the hobby shop. The plywood and bone make for very consistent cutting. I didn't use a jeweler's saw frame, or even a fret saw. I mounted a 2/0 jeweler's blade in my variable speed scroll saw and set it for the slowest setting. Then I could concentrate, using both hands, on following the pattern as accurately as possible. The bone is 2mm thick, and the plywood about 3mm.

Sidi - 7-10-2005 at 01:36 PM

Folks you are probably looking at the next Jameel Georges in action here...awesome stuff Jameel. :applause:

Jameel - 7-19-2005 at 01:19 PM

Sidi,

That's just going too far! :bowdown:

My ouds are at most wall-hangers. I know pretty-much nada when it comes to good sound.

Ok, back to construction. Here's some shots of the mosaic inlay around the soundholes. After I cut the sound hole out, I'll glue another line of veneer on the inside of the tiles. I have an interesting way of clamping this in place.

In the second shot I laid some of the inlay that will surround the soundhole. These diamonds will have a thin circular line of veneer that connects them at their points.

I was looking back at the beginning of this thread. It's been an entire year, minus a week, since I started this oud. Whew! Frankly, I'm ready to string it up!

Mike - 7-20-2005 at 05:18 AM

Hey Jameelo,

Looks like you are at he final stretch here my man.
Needless to say, it looks incredible so far.
Keep up the good work, and keep us posted.

Take care,
Mike

Face Inlay complete

Jameel - 7-30-2005 at 01:32 PM

Thanks as usual everybody. It's coming along well now. Not much left..... :applause:

I finished up the face inlay and cut out one of the qamriyya. After cutting out the holes, I glued in a line of purfling (walnut veneer) to cover the inside edge of the hole. To clamp it firmly in place, I inflated ballons to act as clamps while the glue dried. About 10 minutes after the balloons were inflated, while I was cutting the qamriyya, one of them popped, giving me a good scare. I thought perhaps something disastrous had happened! I quickly filled another and got back to work. Next step: bracing the top.

Cutting the rose

Jameel - 7-31-2005 at 02:04 PM

Using a 2/0 jeweler's blade in a variable-speed scroll saw...

Mike - 7-31-2005 at 05:04 PM

Jameel,
The soundboard is looking beautiful. I can't wait to see it on the oud. Oh, and the balloons cracked me up my man! :applause:

Keep up the great work,
Mike

syrianoud - 8-7-2005 at 09:31 PM

What a beutiful Oud , I never seen such a nice way to build a oud.I congratulate you, Cant wait to see it done. Very good Job . salamat

Raqma

Jameel - 8-27-2005 at 01:20 PM

Thanks again for the nice comments. You guys make this project a lot more fun. :bowdown:

After a long time of not being able to work on the oud, I finally got some free moments this weekend. I made the raqma today. It's Indian Rosewood with maple, walnut, and bone inlay. I also started the bridge, but didn't get a chance to photograph it.

mavrothis - 8-28-2005 at 01:03 PM

Bravo Jameel,

The working you are doing on your new oud and the restorations you've done are simply gorgeous. Thanks for sharing your art with us. :applause:

Take care,

mavrothis

Bridge

Jameel - 8-28-2005 at 06:09 PM

Thanks, Mav! Welcome back. Sounds like you had a great time in Greece.

The bridge has bone strips on the edges to prevent the strings from wearing into the wood. The bridge is made from walnut.

Peyman - 8-28-2005 at 07:21 PM

truly amazing (and practical) :bowdown:

Are those the same bone strips you prepared yourself?

Jay - 8-28-2005 at 08:11 PM

That's beautiful, Jameel... I bet you're just itching to play this one! Looking forward to seeing the shamsiyya.

Jay

bcearthtones - 8-29-2005 at 05:15 AM

I hope you are turning pro after this one !

Dr. Oud - 8-29-2005 at 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bcearthtones
I hope you are turning pro after this one !

I think Jameel is a master luthier already, turning pro is a business decision, and living in the USA with the oud prices attainable is not a living income. To put it in perspective, the very best makers are selling ouds for $2,500-$4,000. The best guitar makers are getting $10,000-$30,000. and the best violin makers are selling for $20,000-$50,000. Peter Keveylos, who is a grand master oud maker relies on his instrument repair business to make a living. The only oud maker I know of actually making a living from his craft is Viken Najarian, and he is doing it by selling electric solid body ouds. This is a labor of love, and Jameel shows us how much he loves to make beautiful ouds.
BTW, Jameel the bridge cap looks familiar, no? Very nice work all around, I want to hear it - no - I want to play it!

bcearthtones - 8-30-2005 at 05:32 AM

Your absolutley right Doc, it's the skill that makes the master, not the money. Beautiful stuff Jameel! A labour of love well worrth the effort.

Peyman - 8-30-2005 at 06:39 AM

Jameel,
I am very curious as what kind of wood the soundboard is. Is it possible to build the ribs from the same material or is it too tough for bending?
I can't wait till it all comes together...

carpenter - 8-30-2005 at 03:39 PM

Speaking of using a mold, take a peek at Rob't Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction," Guild of American Luthiers, 2002. Dy-no-mite detail construction photos all around. A solid mold used there, but I'm behind the bulkhead notion. Lots of European-flavored roses, too, many based on Arabic originals. A $65 price tag, but I dig it. www.luth.org , if interested.
Looks like lutes use an an elliptical/catenary cross-section, instead of a pure circle, but still...contains valuable information and pictures.

Jameel - 8-30-2005 at 06:46 PM

Thanks everybody.

I used a guitar saddle for the bone strips.

Doc, I appreciate the compliment, but I'm no master. Your're the master! Turning pro? Who ever made a living making ouds in the US? I'll keep my day job, thanks! Besides, the fun would disappear at that point.

Peyman, it's Englemann Spruce. I've heard of backs made from Cedar or Cypress, never saw one, but I think walnut is the most traditional. Softwoods generally don't bend so well.

carpenter, I had that book but sold it. It had some interesting stuff in it, but I found it not too helpful for oud making. I learned more bending my first rib than reading about it for a week.

Mike - 8-30-2005 at 08:16 PM

What can we say Jameelo! The soundboard looks just as amazing as the body. Incredible attention to detail and craftsmanship my friend. Getting closer and closer to stringing this bad boy up. I can't wait to see the finished instrument.
Take care,
Mike

Jameel - 9-3-2005 at 01:34 PM

If you can't wait Mike, think about how I feel! I'ts almost there!

Ok, I'm fitting the braces now, and I discovered a new method that makes the fitting go about 100x faster. I'm not kidding. I was blown away when I discovered it this morning. So I cut the brace to rough length as usual, using the small bevel gauge as I normally do. The next step is to fit each end of the brace to match the curvature of the top rib in both planes. Not an easy task if you want it to be accurate. I usually do this with a fine wood rasp and file. So, it popped into my head: use the inside surface of the rib itself to shape the end of the brace to match perfectly. And how is this done? By slipping a piece of medium sandpaper (100grit) between the end of the brace and the rib, holding the brace in its exact position against the rib and pulling the sandpaper up, thereby conforming the sandpaper to the exact shape of the inside surface of the rib and shaping the end of the brace to that exact shape. I was able to fit each brace this way, and I had all the braces perfectly fit in about 2 hours! To me this is very fast. So as I'm writing this I have the first rib clamped up and the glue curing. This was a significant discovery for me, and sped up and simplified what is normally a long tedious job. Check the video in the next message.

Brace fitting

Jameel - 9-3-2005 at 01:36 PM

Dr. Oud - 9-6-2005 at 08:27 AM

Lap sanding! why didn't I think of that. Great idea, Jameel, I'm gonna use it myself from now on.

Alan - 9-10-2005 at 02:35 PM

Jameel, once again I am blown away by your oud making ability. Man you are doing a fantastic job. Your ouds are beautiful. A labor of love for sure. Truely amazing

Rose/Shamsiyya

Jameel - 9-15-2005 at 04:10 AM

Alan,

Thanks for the nice comments. You are very kind to say so. :bowdown:

After coming up with a design I wanted to use for the rose (it's a common Nahat desgn), I decided I needed some help designing the calligraphy in the center circle. First, I asked fellow board member and friend Spyros C., who was kind enough to provide me with several designs. Although I ended up not using any of these, his input is greatly appreciated, and I am greatly indebted to him for his time and effort. Thank you Spyros! :wavey:

I'd also like to thank Mike and Wael K. for providing me with some Arabic computer-generated versions of the calligraphy.

While corresponding with another highly valued board member, Sidi, I discovered that he had studied Arabic Calligraphy at university. After some correspondence and discussion, we settled on a design. Due to the refined nature of Sidi's design, we decided to increase the size of the center calligraphy, to showcase his work, and make it easier to cut (the primary reason---this has some seriously tiny parts to cut). I'm including an image of the original calligraphic design, and the form it took in the context of the rose itself, which I am in the process of cutting. Like the qamriyya, it's a layer of bone laminated to a layer of thin plywood.

mavrothis - 9-16-2005 at 09:15 AM

Beautiful!

Peyman - 9-16-2005 at 01:58 PM

Neat! :airguitar:

Video of the Cutting

Jameel - 9-16-2005 at 03:45 PM

Thanks! I cut a bit more of the rose and managed to take a video. It wasn't easy, as the camera was between my eyes and the rose. I'm using a Dewalt scroll saw, and a 2/0 jeweler's blade on almost the slowest setting. It's relatively easy to follow the line when you don't have one hand occupied with a jeweler's saw, and your mind occupied with keeping the saw moving and square to the workpiece. It's still exacting work, nevertheless, and sucks brain power like finals week after a semester of skipping class!

Shamsiyya Cutting

mavrothis - 9-16-2005 at 04:05 PM

:applause:

Peyman - 9-17-2005 at 06:25 AM

I see what you mean Jameel.
How did you get the bone to cover all the rosette?

Mike - 9-17-2005 at 06:51 AM

Jameelo,

Not only are you an extremely gifted craftsman, but also a pretty darn good videographer!

That was a great video, and it details just how tedious it is to cut that great shamseyya out. It took you two and a half minutes for that cut, and I figure there are probably around 2 or 3 hundred more to go. I know I wouldn't have the patience for it. As usual bud...great job!

Take care,
Mike

Jameel - 9-18-2005 at 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peyman
I see what you mean Jameel.
How did you get the bone to cover all the rosette?

You can get large slabs of bone from Jantz Supply (see page 6 of this thread). I sanded them flat and smooth, a uniform thickness, then edge glued them together to form a large slab, sanded that smooth, and epoxied it to a piece of thin aircraft plywood (hobby shop).

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike
Jameelo,

Not only are you an extremely gifted craftsman, but also a pretty darn good videographer!

That was a great video, and it details just how tedious it is to cut that great shamseyya out. It took you two and a half minutes for that cut, and I figure there are probably around 2 or 3 hundred more to go. I know I wouldn't have the patience for it. As usual bud...great job!

Take care,
Mike

Thanks, Mike. It wasn't easy cutting that with the camera in the way. I made a little mistake around the "flower" because of it--I cut past the line. I won't be doing that again! I'm still cutting out the shamsa after about 7 hours so far........whew!

Shamsiyya complete

Jameel - 9-18-2005 at 06:12 PM

Finished cutting it out.......

Jameel - 9-18-2005 at 06:14 PM

SamirCanada - 9-18-2005 at 08:17 PM

OMG!!! :bowdown:

Iam blown away... you must be tired of the bone dust and smell.
God bless your hands master Jameel "Nahat" khalaf
Your on the final strech now. I cant wait to see it completed.
Its been a while since the thread was started but my gosh..Its been worth the wait. I goes to show that if you take your time your Ideas have time to mature and come to life.
I wish you many years of happy oud building Jameel
Salam 3eidak ya batal ya ma3alem

Peyman - 9-19-2005 at 04:51 AM

Wow! Definitely shows how much time you spent on it... That's one awsome piece of art. :xtreme:

Mabrouk Jameel!

Sidi - 9-19-2005 at 05:59 AM

Jameel has shown us once more, what a master craftsman he truly is.

Working with him on the calligraphy was a pleasure. He was patient, very open to my suggestions and above all extremely courteous...a great gentleman indeed. I was often humbled by his kind words, and his genuine appreciation of the calligraphy.

Jameel puts a lot of soul into his work, and I did my best to match him as we worked on the calligraphy. Ever since we started, I had no doubt he'd perform a surgical cut of this calibre...and I didn't hold anything back. The end result simply makes me proud.

Well done Jameel, :applause:

-Sidi

Mike - 9-19-2005 at 07:11 AM

Hey Jameelo & Sidi,

What a great shamseyya! You guys did a fantastic job. Jameel...you knocked that out pretty quickly. Very nice. I'm with Samir...can't wait to see the finished oud.

Be well,
Mike

Wow

LeeVaris - 9-19-2005 at 02:24 PM

Fantastic...

I'm sure it will sound as good as it looks! :buttrock:

Elie Riachi - 9-24-2005 at 10:38 AM

Jameel,

Very creative, clean and professional workmanship you bring to the craft of Oud making. This puts you on par with Norm Abram :applause:

Have you considered instruments restoration for a career!

A question what is the center of the Shams supposed to say?

Elie

SamirCanada - 9-24-2005 at 10:46 AM

I can read Jameel / raij (raig) (Re Alif yeh jeh) / Khalaf
Iam not shure at all about the middle word.

maybe its something else I'll let Jameel or Sidi clarify
I hope this helps you estez Elie
samir

Elie Riachi - 9-24-2005 at 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SamirCanada
I can read Jameel / raij (raig) (Re Alif yeh jeh) / Khalaf
Iam not shure at all about the middle word.

maybe its something else I'll let Jameel or Sidi clarify
I hope this helps you estez Elie
samir

Yeslamo ya ibn el ballad. Somewhere I am not seeing the "meem" unless it is the first letter in the first word, then that "jeem" all by itself at the end of first line combined with the first word would form the name "Jameel." If so that is so clever and interesting how rules can be bent when it comes to this art. If that wasn't the intention and the first letter in the first word, is supposed to be "jeem", then that word would read "jeel" meaning "Generation". So is it "Jeel raj khalaf" or "Jameel ra khalaf"?

Either way it remains a very beautiful detailed piece of art, masterfully executed :applause:

Regards,
Elie

Sidi - 9-24-2005 at 12:27 PM

Hi,

Elie the words are "Jameel Raji Khalaf". In the word Jameel, the letter "meem" is attached right under the "Jeem". I didn't think many people would find the word Raji confusing. The trick is to read the words in order: "Ra2 Alif Jeem Ya2". In arabic when two letters are attached, the highest rightmost letter is read first. The "tail" of the "Ya2" does come in first (from the right), but the letter actually starts at the end of the "Jeem", which is the higher of the two.

I'm sure Jameel has a few more surprises for us on this oud...stay tuned.

-Sidi

P.S: Thanks for filling in Samir.

kasos - 9-24-2005 at 05:11 PM

Just beautiful... I wish I could contribute something by way of technical comment on this, but all I can say is that this work is inspiring. Mark

Thank you all....

Jameel - 9-24-2005 at 05:31 PM

....for all your nice comments. I really appreciate you taking the time to write responses to this thread. It's encouraging. I have been working on this oud for well over a year now, and I can't tell you what an experience it has been so far. I've had so many ideas to consider, so many elements to decide on, so many sessions in my shop of trudging through small aspects in order to do the more dramatic parts. It's been trying at times, and I'm so eager to brush on that first coat of finish, I can't tell you. This thread has kept me from cutting corners in order to finish the oud, and I'm glad for it. I really feel like I'm making a sort of tribute to the Nahat family on this one, since I'm trying to make it as "Nahat" as possible. I'm not incorporating much of my own designs, and trying to keep in the Nahat spirit without outright duplcating an existing Nahat. Getting close to end is also a bit sad, since I may not be able to make another oud for quite a while after this one, since I have put off other more important personal projects that will soon need attention. I don't have pics to post now, but I did get the soundboard glued on this week, and the edge cut away for egde tiles, which I hope to begin installing tomorrow.

Dr. Oud - 9-25-2005 at 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elie Riachi... This puts you on par with Norm Abram:....

Jameel surpasses Norm both not only in his cabinet making but leaves Norm in the dust with his creativity. I haven't seen Norm do anything original, he seems to be a spokesperson for corporate power tool makers, making copies of antiques or restoring houses. Houses and furniture are crude examples of woodworking compared with makiing a musical instrumet. Many guitar makers I have shown the oud to were amazed by the delicacy of the construction. The accuracy and control necessary to make an oud are the most demanding of all. There is very little room for error and recovery since the instrument requires you to build right up to the edge of structural integrity. I can testify that Jameel is not only innovative in his execution, but his artistic design of this oud as well as his other woodworking is beyond comparison. Then there's his painting. My wife is a gifted painter herself, and we have visited many museums of masterworks over the years and I can say that we both were blown away by Jameel's painting. Jameel is an artist of the very highest caliber, please don't demean his talent by comparing him to a commercial craftsman.

Peyman - 9-25-2005 at 06:40 AM

Quote:

Jameel surpasses Norm both not only in his cabinet making but leaves Norm in the dust with his creativity.

Actually I was thinking that maybe Dr. O or Jameel can do a DIY special on Oud making. They have a handmade music series that airs Sunday nights.
That would be very interesting!

Elie Riachi - 9-25-2005 at 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Oud

Quote:

Originally posted by Elie Riachi... This puts you on par with Norm Abram:....

Good Doc, I meant it as a compliment. What is wrong with earning a living building good ouds wehther they are faithful copies of Nahats or origional recreation of what a Nahat maybe? The disgrace is in those cheap ouds that people end up buying.

Regards,
Elie

Elie

Elie Riachi - 9-25-2005 at 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peyman

Quote:

Jameel surpasses Norm both not only in his cabinet making but leaves Norm in the dust with his creativity.

Actually I was thinking that maybe Dr. O or Jameel can do a DIY special on Oud making. They have a handmade music series that airs Sunday nights.
That would be very interesting!

Jameel, would you call your show "The New Lebanese Workshop"? not jokcking.

Great idea Peyman.

Elie

Jameel - 9-25-2005 at 09:52 AM

Elie,

Thanks. I appreciate the compliment. Actually, though, Richard is right about Norm. Back in the "old days" of the Interent, I was a member of several old tool groups, guys that specialize in hand-tool work, and they were not fans of Norm. They call themselves "galoots", and look down on Norm. Norm is really a master carpenter, not a cabinetmaker or furnituremaker. But I still like him. I'm not a purist by any means, but Norm would do well to promote some more use of handtools, and real woodworking. I personally use a combo of both, as do most woodworkers. I actually learned woodworking with powertools from both of my grandfathers who liked to watch Norm towards the ends of their lives. I learned a ton from those old tool groups, and cut my handtool teeth on my grandpa's old hand plane over 13 years ago. It was an incredible experience taking see-thru shavings with a handplane for the first time. I like Norm, and still watch him from time to time. But frankly, his show is the same every week. Build something different using the same tools and techniques. Rarely does he show you how to actually do something by hand. His show is more like a video instruction for a set of furniture plans, for a given piece. A show I enjoy more is The Woodwright's Shop with Roy Underhill, which I think is no longer produced. This guy is at the other end of the spectrum, no power at all, well electricity at least. He never really made anything large or fancy, but rather dedicated each show to making simple things with hand tools only. He'd mount the video camera to the plane or chisel, right near the cutting edge so you could see exactly how it worked. Another show that I don't get in my area but have seen a few times is American Woodshop with Scott (don't remember his last name). He was a good balance between power and hand tools, and his show was more interesting, with special guests, visits to other shops etc.

Since we're talking about making a living building ouds, I have a question for you all.

A few conditions first. Say this oud turns out sounding nice. Not exceptional, but a good, professional-sounding arabic oud that any good player, professional or otherwise would be happy to own and play. And given that you've seen 95% of the complete instrument (fingerboard is all that's left, and it will be inlayed), and pretend for a moment that I'm an established oud maker, what do you think, or rather, what would you be willing to pay for it? I want your unvarnished opinion, be honest, realistic. Since I don't make ouds professionally, and don't have a reputation, I won't be insulted or offended. Heck, I might even be surprised. :wavey:

SamirCanada - 9-25-2005 at 10:31 AM

Dear Jameel,
on the topic of making ouds for a living. I have enjoyed everysingle bit of developement of you making this oud. I really admire how there was no rush in attempting to complete the oud prematuraly. The main problem for making a living with ouds in the us say.. is that if you have another job to suport a decent lifestyle in america that doesnt really leave you much time to work on a oud wich is why I think this project is over a year into. None the less Iam shure that when you would start working on the oud it makes you get away from the stress of work etc.. so it would be like something to look forward to do on the weekend. A oud that takes over a year to make is definetly worth a lot and the problem with that is that it could be worth to much to be afforded. I think there is a trade off to be made between the amount of hours put on one single instrument and the amount of instruments you can produce during the year. I mean... there could be great risks in leaving your carrer to build ouds full time. So to concider making a living out of it is possible but living somewhere like in the middle-east would make it easy to pull a living out of it. The only way to be shure would be to save it for retirement. But I really encourage you to keep at it part time. You this great talent that needs to be put to work but its understandable that there are other things that you cannot neglect. You could present it in an auction or something but In my opinion to give you some guide lines this oud should pull in about 2000$ and maybe up to 3500$ wich I hope it does in the end because thats what I think it could be made of. The other thing is that you dont know how good your ouds will sound in 75 years. The Nahat family members looking down from the sky must be goin crazy. There ouds now are worth thousands of dollars and some are even priceless. I doubt that its what they retailed at when they were alive. Same goes for paintings I guess.
Regards
Samir

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