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Do you like Oriental Jazz?

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Aymara - 6-1-2010 at 01:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

That's why fusion is not jazz.

Sorry, Tony, but this is nonsense ... or do you want to tell me, that Weather Report was not a Jazz band? Well, I think you would be very alone with this opinion

Quote: Originally posted by Greg

The sooner we no longer feel the need to catagorize every form of music, the better (IMO).

Good point, but that has pros and cons ... sometimes it would be hard to explain, about which kind of music one speaks, if it wouldn't have a name

Sazi - 6-1-2010 at 01:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

... sometimes it would be hard to explain, about which kind of music one speaks, if it wouldn't have a name

Talking about music is like dancing about architecture :cool:

Let the music tell it's own story I say

People can then call it whatever they like, but it makes no difference to the music :rolleyes:

Edward Powell - 6-1-2010 at 01:34 AM

Ross Daly is another such character, although not playing Arabic music, he has learned very well Greek and Turkish (classical and folk) music. In fact his story is very interesting because at the time he appeared in Greece there was so much animosity there against Turks that very few people were willing to accept that Greek and Turkish musics are intimately related. Hence, at that time (70's) Greek music was rapidly losing it's oriental flavour.

Ross came along and was able to see the situation with the unbiased eyes of an outsider, and recognised the absurdity in the separation of Greek and Turkish musics. Consequently he learned this music and then began to TEACH IT IS A NEW GENERATION of young Greek musicians - many people now consider him largely responsible for helping Greek music rediscover it's Oriental Soul.

In the case of both Wiess and Daly, neither of these guys heard Oriental music in their their Mommys' tummys.... but they did (in support of James's theory) fully immerse themselves in the country - moved and lived there, learned the language and all the rest. This, I agree seems to be necessary if one wants to truly enter into a specific tradition.

I think the confusion comes with the different goals. Doing what Weiss and Daly have done is great..... but these guys have completely abandoned their own musical roots, and hence have been able to completely adopt a new tradition 100%.

But there are many many musicians who can be found somewhere in the middle --- those who retain a certain amount of their own roots, while at the same time learn a significant amount from another culture's music to be able to create very interesting fusions.

And I think that the problems these musicians face in being accepted, again comes down to LABELS. If you learn something about Tibetan music, and then use this to influence your Celtic music. . . then how are you going to describe this? You must somehow include the word Tibeten. . . . but then as soon as you do this, there will immediately be a mob of Tibetan purists ready to beat you down because of this or that. . . . . But if you don't use the word Tibetan to describe your music - people will come to the gigs expecting to hear "Celtic" music and perhaps be put off by the Tibetan influence, or worse, you will miss out on attracting those people who would specifically be intrigued by such a fusion.

Unfortunately labels are unavoidable if you want to get anyone to come to gigs or buy Cds...... but obviously labels are creating enormous problems for musicians as well.

Lazzaro - 6-1-2010 at 01:29 PM

Thank you Greg! About oriental-jazz I think that exist different kinds of this, some times more oriental or more jazz. I have a quartet in Cairo with another Italian musician and two Egyptian musicians. In the past I used the label "mediterranean jazz" and now only jazz. In Cairo the label "jazz" is used not only for mainstream jazz. One girl has made a video of my version of "Summertime" in one of my concert in Cairo and it has put this in youtube with the label "Summertime Oriental version".
I think this is no exact but I feel me honored for this. For me is very very important to conserve with cure own traditions as the conservatory in Europa do for classic music but is a joy for musicians and audience the discovery of a new sound.
Last but not least I am sure that for playing the songs of Oum Kalthoum I need to know the meaning of all the words.
Massalama ciao ciao

fernandraynaud - 6-1-2010 at 10:19 PM

Chris, all of these labels have usefulness in different realms.

There's a technical point in distinguishing Fusion from Jazz. When Miles recorded Bitches Brew he crossed from Jazz into something quite different, and the sales of his albums hugely increased. That was the birth of Fusion. The term Fusion can be used here in a positive way. What was primarily different was that the rhythm was no longer typically "jazz syncopation shuffle", it was a straight ahead "rock" rhythm, and this is the rhythm that appealed to a huge new public that Miles never had before. If you take Pharaoh's Dance, it might have been very Jazzy in using the brushes and the hi-hats, but it was not jazz. That rhodes might have been very hip, but it was not Jazz. Joe Zawinul the rode that wave with Weather Report. I know, I talked to him about it, and I still have those vinyls.

If Weather Report goes in the Jazz section now it's because there's no Fusion section, the term "Fusion" became a technical, not a marketing term, and the CD bins are labeled by Marketing terms. If anything, "fusion" is a derogatory term now, as well it should, with all the mediocre half-jazz-rock that followed. But Weather Report was NOT jazz in the sense that Coltrane, early Miles, etc were, it was Fusion the way it started out. It's partly a matter of the pharmaceuticals in use, what rhythms went with what.

It seems now on Satellite radio (that's a good indicator) we have bona fide Jazz making a comeback, sort of like Bebop oldies, and we have a sort of soft-fusion a la David Sanborn they often call "quiet storm" after a famous radio station, and then there's New Age and there's Cinema (that's a new bin, a lot of film music doesn't fit any of the other bins), and then there's World, which is sort of where we're digging potatos.

Incidentally, when Miles recorded that last stuff with Marcus Miller, he was again at a new place, crossing over, and he would probably have enjoyed another career burst if he had shown up at any of his concerts, and hadn't checked out.

Edward Powell - 6-1-2010 at 10:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

When Miles recorded Bitches Brew he crossed from Jazz into something quite different, and the sales of his albums hugely increased. That was the birth of Fusion.

Sooooo refreshing to hear the correct and accurate history being stated as opposed to witnessing this poor word "jazz" overworked and misunderstood so.

But alas, accuracy doesn't mean much in 2010 - the word jazz has lost it's original meaning, and taken on a new MUCH broader meaning. . . . . this is a pity in my opinion because there is an accommpanying loss of awareness and respect for the original art form.

fernandraynaud - 6-1-2010 at 11:46 PM

I was mentioning satellite radio because they have a need, they need widely accepted labeling categories, and they do it fairly well. What they call jazz is jazz, what they call blues and hip hop and showtunes and different types of Rock - the terms fit quite well. Their real jazz - classic jazz is playing mcCoy Tyner right now, their watercolors smooth contemporary jazz (thats what they call their fusion channel) is playing Jackiem Joyner and they have new age, latin Caliente, bluesville, cinemagic, area trance, Bpm Dance, strobe disco, xm chill cool electronic (ambient), etc.

Look at

Http://Www.xmradio.com/onxm/full-channel-listing.xmc

Edward Powell - 6-1-2010 at 11:53 PM

of course, having a separate label for every twist and turn a genre takes can be cumbersome, depending on your level of interest. . . . for example, I am not much interested in electronic dance music, so I will generally just lump it all into the "TECHNO" box...

but of course, in reailty there is a myriad of sub-genres. So I apologise for my disrespect and ignorance...

Aymara - 6-2-2010 at 12:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

Sooooo refreshing to hear the correct and accurate history ...

Sorry, but I have to disagree ... it is NOT accurate.

It is correct that Miles Davis' Bitches Brew from 1970 was the first well known record for this new Jazz style, but it was called JAZZ ROCK and not Fusion in the beginning.

Oh and by the way ... Weather Report's started more with Free Jazz than typical Jazz Rock ... listen to I Sing the Body Electric, their second album from 1972.

Fusion Jazz is a marketing term of the record companies, that came up in the early 80ies, but the development of Jazz Rock started in the early 70ies.

And it was John Mc Laughlin & Shakti besides others, who made those marketing guys develop the new term Fusion.

Quote:

... the word jazz has lost it's original meaning ...

No, it has not changed ... Jazz itself has developed several different "sub-styles" over the centuries, as had Rock music too

Edward Powell - 6-2-2010 at 02:44 AM

Perhaps I am sentimental about the bebop era... I could imagine that there might be people who consider jazz from the SWING era to be the "real" jazz, and consider that BEBOP was already something different.

I think it can be very very subjective. Especially when you are comparing Miles with Weather Report. . . . but in the case of Brahem, now this is clearly NOT jazz

...unlessssssssss youuuuuuuuuuuu insistttttttttttttt onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn stretchingggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg the meaning of that word perhaps tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo far. :shrug:

in fact, why do people want to call that jazz? I dont mean that disrespectfully, I am just curious.

fernandraynaud - 6-2-2010 at 03:12 AM

Chris I don't know why you are being combative. I wasn't saying anything about the term "fusion" being applied in 1970. As a US-based musician I knew many of the people involved, I listened to Monk and Mingus when I was barely more than a kid at the Five Spot in New York. It was Zawinul who wrote Pharaoh's Dance, at the 1969 rehearsal, and he formed Weather Report later, after he accepted the technology of Macero's production and style that "made" the album.

Bitches Brew was a huge event at the time. I know, as Joe was later too busy to play on a session i tried to hire him for, so what you say about Weather Report "pioneering" in 1972 is immaterial. McLaughlin was another player Macero brought in for the Bitches Brew sessions. As usual, Miles had the "touch" that put these people on the map.

I think Europeans place intrinsic value on even the word "jazz" without realizing exactly what it is and is not. This is largely because Jazz was a symbol of everything musical and cultural that was missing in Europe. And it continues, so that calling something Jazz adds nobility to it. But of course it ruins the precise meaning of the word. And i don' t especially consider jazz noble, though in retrospect more creative than most Derivatives of jazz, including fusion, jazz-Rock and so on, that i think are especially trashworthy. As far as I'm concerned Brahem makes interesting music, but it's not hot jazz, not cool jazz, not free jazz, in short it's no kind of jazz at all, and that's to his credit. Time for some new labels!

Edward Powell - 6-2-2010 at 03:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I think Europeans place intrinsic value on even the word "jazz" without realizing exactly what it is and is not. This is largely because Jazz was a symbol of everything musical and cultural that was missing in Europe. And it continues, so that calling something Jazz adds nobility to it. But of course it ruins the precise meaning of the word. And i don' t especially consider jazz noble, though in retrospect more creative than most Derivatives of jazz, including fusion, jazz-Rock and so on, that i think are especially trashworthy. As far as I'm concerned Brahem makes interesting music, but it's not hot jazz, not cool jazz, not free jazz, in short it's no kind of jazz at all, and that's to his credit. Time for some new labels!

very insightful (IMO).

- - -

I wonder if you could manage to put Brahem and Rabi into one catagory (label). Personally I would suggest that they could both be generally considered in the same genre... and if yes, what would this genre most accurately be named? Any suggestions???

What about : "Arab ex-pat oudis making music in europe"

no.... that's too long and general.

or:

"expat oudi music"?

"euro-oud"?

"EurOud"

- - -
to me this genre seem very European... the Oriental influence seems less, and the American influence negligible.
- - -

this music also seems modern in that it combines instruments and style from wherever, and adjusts itself to 12TET tuning. It also seems artistic in approach. It is not tradition bound - forms and rules are minimal. It is a rather subtle and understated music - contemplative..... melodic, but 12TET.

- - -

what about :

"Chill Oud music"
"Modern Euro-Arab Art music" (too long again)

- - -

In my opinion I would simply call it "ART MUSIC" as a general catagory.

fernandraynaud - 6-2-2010 at 03:57 AM

We could maybe call it "world jazz" and make everybody happy?

As a TYPE of jazz that has world music roots and is jazz mostly by virtue of self-view, as in "our type of jazz", I think it works.

Edward Powell - 6-2-2010 at 04:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

We could maybe call it "world jazz" and make everybody happy?

As a TYPE of jazz that has world music roots and is jazz mostly by virtue of self-view, as in "our type of jazz", I think it works.

hahaha!

Dude... this is one of the first times I would have to seriously disagree. First of all - remember all of your intelligent and convincing arguments for dropping the word Jazz.

secondly, this word "world" has been even more abused than the word "jazz" in terms of a label.

however, by today's standards "world jazz" is probably the best we could come up with that people would accept.

but the more I think of it, the more I like the label "art music" because it really seems to get at the heart of what these guys are trying to do: They are not trying to be Oriental, but yes they are trying to be Global (in a very limited way). They are not trying to be specifically jazzy. But certainly they ARE trying to be artistic. The Artistic element is perhaps the only one common thread running thru it all-----

or what about :

"World Art Music"
or
"Cross-cultural Art Music"

(but I object to these names because the non-european part of the world gets a grossly disproportionate percentage of the say)

Aymara - 6-2-2010 at 04:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

We could maybe call it "world jazz" and make everybody happy?

Though I like Edward's term Cross-Cultural Art Music, I think, that World Jazz is the better choice, not only because it has elements of World Music and Jazz as you explained, but mainly because I think, it doesn't matter much, how WE call it.

The question is, how the record industry would call it ... and in which rack you'll find these CDs in the record shops. Currently you'll find both Anouar and Rabih in the Jazz racks, because their records are released on a Jazz labels ... ECM and Enja. The later will also release the new Joseph Tawadros CD in Europe.

PS: And if it would be a different label, I bet you'd find them in the World Music rack.

Oh ... btw ... regarding JT you'll find an interesting interview article in THIS thread. This is a bit related to the discussion above about learning oud in arabic versus western countries.

Let me only quote three sentenses from the end of the article:

Quote:

There is also a high degree of improvisation and, of course, this does not require notation. There was never a notation system in Egypt. It’s an aurally learnt tradition.

Interesting, isn't it?

Sazi - 6-2-2010 at 05:07 AM

I remember looking in vain for Brahem in the "World Music" section of a shop, and was directed to the "Jazz" section where it resided, which made no sense to me at all, - I mean if you were looking for Jazz, would you look in the World, or Folk or whatever section!?! So for that reason alone "World Jazz" gets my vote, at least we might find something interesting in that section! It's not a perfect term, but would serve a useful purpose.

Edward Powell - 6-2-2010 at 05:13 AM

...I also agree, as I said, that WORLD JAZZ would be the best - all things considered - but still it does little to correct the problem, because it is still intrinsically an inaccurate term. Whereas "Blues-Rock", "Country-Rock", "Dixieland", "Tasavuuf", all truly and accurately describe something - WORLD JAZZ, seems inaccurate to me. . . .
Perhaps because influences these days are SO large, it becomes increasingly difficult to find accurate labels.

by the way, this IS an extremely important question, I feel, because an incorrect label can result in great music getting lost or misplaced.

Sazi - 6-2-2010 at 05:24 AM

Yes, I agree, it IS inaccurate, and important. I disagree with a few of the labels they use in music shops to describe what is probably indescribable music... I'm just speaking in terms of looking for something in one of those shops, or on-line, this is where we unfortunately need labels. As I said earlier, I prefer to let the music speak for itself, I'm not really sure how I would market my own playing in the various bands. Perhaps just list some influences or inspirations, along with photo's including the various instruments...

It's a tricky one!

fernandraynaud - 6-2-2010 at 03:51 PM

In california both book and CD stores are vanishing. Only smaller, used and specialty ones are left. It's changing everything. We never had the widespread ability to listen to CDs in stores, only some little stores had it. So the way I used to hunt was by looking for and recognizing players' names, and by word of mouth. Browsing in bins was very important. But the bins are vanishing.

Then the custom of listening to music intently was pushed aside by time pressures. The value of music was downgraded. The car is where I would guess we now listen most of all, CDs I choose but also radio. The regular purchase of albums is no more. I dowload what I want to hear, some $0.99 tunes, some MP3s.

But note that we have to know what we want in order to go get it. The discovery of new music is not as important as it was 30 years ago, that's for sure, and when people buy what they already know, things stagnate.

Making music and listening are different things. A healthy music ecology like that of the 70s depends on a public that discovers and buys music! Now there is an opportunity for direct marketing by music makers, reducing the share of the distributors, but it' not clear exactly how to best organize it. Maybe it will work itself out ...

Sazi - 6-2-2010 at 04:06 PM

Regarding the vanishing Cd thing, yes, I've noticed that here too, though not so much in country towns, mainly in the city.
I too only really play cd's in the car or from my HDD on the 'puter.

I noticed somewhere the other day, some band selling their new Cd on a USB stick, only 1Gb, so I guess people are used to mp3 "quality" and are happy with that.

But as you probably know, there is a growing backlash from an also growing number of producers and other bigwigs in the pro audio fields, pushing for a return to higher standards. A Good Thing methinks!

fernandraynaud - 6-2-2010 at 06:14 PM

I'm not sure. There are so many issues!!!! As a buyer I'm on the opposite side of so many issues from when I'm selling!!!

Art Music - MY music would always be Art and priced to bring revenue, and the other stuff should be priced Fairly, while what i don't like is not Art, it's commercial.

The 1gb stick is enough to hold a full 55 minute CD in uncompressed 24 bit 48k, and if the music's only the typical 40 minutes or so, it should fit in 24 bit 96 k super audiophile format! So maybe that's one way to offer better quality!

Sazi - 6-2-2010 at 07:29 PM

At a reasonable price too, I guess. Yes, maybe that's the way to go. Of course we'd still need packaging on which to put "cover art" and some kind of er... label. :rolleyes:

Edward Powell - 6-2-2010 at 09:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

In california both book and CD stores are vanishing. Only smaller, used and specialty ones are left. It's changing everything. We never had the widespread ability to listen to CDs in stores, only some little stores had it. So the way I used to hunt was by looking for and recognizing players' names, and by word of mouth. Browsing in bins was very important. But the bins are vanishing.

Then the custom of listening to music intently was pushed aside by time pressures. The value of music was downgraded. The car is where I would guess we now listen most of all, CDs I choose but also radio. The regular purchase of albums is no more. I dowload what I want to hear, some $0.99 tunes, some MP3s.

But note that we have to know what we want in order to go get it. The discovery of new music is not as important as it was 30 years ago, that's for sure, and when people buy what they already know, things stagnate.

Making music and listening are different things. A healthy music ecology like that of the 70s depends on a public that discovers and buys music! Now there is an opportunity for direct marketing by music makers, reducing the share of the distributors, but it' not clear exactly how to best organize it. Maybe it will work itself out ...

70s was a really really special musical time. I miss it!

Sazi - 6-2-2010 at 09:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

70s was a really really special musical time. I miss it!

Yeah, but those boots! And that hair! lol

Aymara - 6-2-2010 at 11:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

In california both book and CD stores are vanishing. Only smaller, used and specialty ones are left.

In Germany it's the other way round ... the small shops are gone and big electronic shops survive, who sell everything from MP3 player to refrigerator and media from audio over film to games.

I really miss my Jazz & World Music dealer in Dortmund. He had a small shop, a huge knowledge about these genres and it was always a pleasure to talk to him, because he often got good tips, that fitted my taste. I always got a coffee, could listen to new records and if I wanted something, he didn't have in stock, he ordered it very fast at much lower prices as I have to pay now.

I hate MP3s ... they kill the "non-commercial" music market.

But there's hope as has been mentioned before. There's a slowly growing crowd of HiFi enthusiast, who are interested in high quality audio and music.

USB-sticks or even the smaller SD cards, that fit in your cell phone, might become the successor of the dying CD and as I mentioned elsewhere before, some record companies begin to offer high quality FLAC audio files besides this MP3 junk.

In the meantime I'm still a CD collector, who also still has a huge Vinyl archive in perfect condition.

fernandraynaud - 6-3-2010 at 04:02 AM

Amazing, that things would be so different in after all similar environments! Even the big Bookstores here are finding they get no economy of scale compared to online businesses. There's no reason to maintain a walk-in store. Everything is centralizing. Little pharmacies here are dying because the insurance companies only allow $0.50 surcharge above standard cost of medication on a prescription, and since the pharmacist cannot buy it at "standard cost" as cheap as the huge chains, he goes out of business.

Aymara - 6-3-2010 at 06:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

... cannot buy it at "standard cost" as cheap as the huge chains, he goes out of business.

That's a general trend we have in Germany too, but not in pharmacy business, which is highly controlled, but in nearly all other areas, even book stores.

Many people here seem to want their goods at once and are not willing to wait for "shipping" from an online store or to send it back, if it's not as good as expected. But it's also a matter of price ... expensive goods are often cheaper online.

Regarding musical intruments I have a big dealer in the neighbour city, who is in business since decades and has similar prices as the big online stores ... so I prefer to buy from him whenever possible. I got my Tar there for less than online, incl. bag.

JT albums now on itunes

bibo10 - 6-3-2010 at 08:45 AM

Hello all,

Just wanted to let you guys know that JT's last album "The Hour of Separation" is now available on itunes. Also Joe's other albums; The Prophet, Epiphany, Angel and Visions will be available as well in few weeks on itunes.

Cheers

Edward Powell - 6-6-2010 at 01:54 AM

if you want REAL jazz.... check THIS out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFqiDcvRW2Y&feature=related :xtreme:

Lazzaro - 6-6-2010 at 05:55 AM

Dear Friends, my preferred jazz guitarist was and is Wes Montgomery, here in a clip playing "Round midnight" (my absolute nowhere)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOm17yw__6U&feature=related
and about modal Jazz here playing "Impressions", one of most famous modal jazz tune, composed by the sax player John Coltrane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXvdU7f-q7I&feature=related
good vision and a big hug to all, Maurizio :wavey:

Edward Powell - 6-6-2010 at 06:06 AM

YEAH!!!
Wes is GOD! What an amazing tone!
It is my hope that this great music will never be forgotten --- and it will not be forgotten that this is the REAL jazz!
:bounce:

jazzchiss - 6-7-2010 at 03:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

If your last comment was in any way directed at me.... please have a listen to my latest CD http://www.andreamurdock.com/ragmakam.zip ---if you don't like this, then fine, I rest my case.

Thanks for sharing your CD! I'm enjoying it now. I wish other members were as generous as you and share their work, because musicians can't buy everything we 'need' to listen, can we?

Edward Powell - 6-7-2010 at 03:21 AM

Thanks my friend... I thought of it like a gift (for those who care) to those on this forum. It occured to me that few from here have more than a foggy idea of the music I make. . . . almost nobody is buying this CD (or other CDs of mine for that matter). . . so why have the thing just sitting around collecting dust. I put a huge amount of work into it - - - so have a listen. If you like it, tell a friend - - - if you don't, then leave it, or offer some helpful criticism so I might do better next time round.

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