What do the mineral spirits do? I apply that after I have sanded it down?Jameel - 12-8-2005 at 02:55 PM
I wipe it on so you can see what the back would look like with a finish on. It also has a practical purpose. It highly accentuates any residual glue
and scratches, so you can make sure you clean up the back very thoroughly. Take a look at page 3 of my thread, about half way down there is a video of
me wiping on some naptha. Here's the link http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?action=attachme...
Naptha does the same thing as the spirits, only naptha evaporates much quicker.Mike - 12-8-2005 at 05:43 PM
Looking great Jonathan. Isn't this exciting? I'm very happy to see your progress.Jonathan - 12-8-2005 at 07:57 PM
Mike, this is really a lot of fun. Very satisfying.
There are a few things that I would have done differently, I already know, but I am really happy with the way it is turning out.
I really think my next one will go a lot easier, because I have learned so much this time.
One thing I have learned is that you have to get that rib exact the first time around, and make sure it is set in place exactly right, because if you
have to remove it, life gets tough.
I am really looking forward to the bowl being done (my goal is Jan 1), and moving on to the next part of this oud. I might even start another bowl
while I am working on the next part of this oud, just because it would be nice to be able to move from one thing to another at times, so that the
project does not get monotonous. So, maybe I will have a couple going at once.
Tonight, I am just screwing around trying to figure out an end cap. I ended up deciding to use lacewood, and then just a simple circle with
horizontal bands of maple and lacewood. The bowl is already pretty loud, and when I placed anything more elaborate up there, it started to look way
too busy. I know that endcaps are always just plain, but what the heck, it is my oud. This is not the final product, but just a quickie mockup of
what it will look like. That lacewood really blows me away. A pity that it was so tough for me to work with. When the wood is finished, it takes on
a really awesome 3-dimensional quality. Hard to se the full beauty of it now, but it will be great. I hope.Elie Riachi - 12-9-2005 at 10:26 AM
Looking good Jonathan. I see what you mean by how good the lacewood looks. I like the way they contrast with the maple, just imagine the whole back
like that... Great job.
What type bracing pattern are you aiming for?
ElieJonathan - 12-9-2005 at 05:49 PM
Thanks, Elie. I didn't shine up that end cap or anything yet--that is still the raw wood. It will look good, though, when it is finished (although I
think it looks great already).
I am glad you brought up the bracing pattern, because I have been thinking about it a lot. I do have pictures of some oud bracing patterns, but, when
it comes right down to it, I really don't know much about braces. Clearly, though, they are incredibly important. . I am going to have to give that
a lot of thought.
Anybody happen to have pictures of the bracing pattern that Karibyan used?
It would really be nice if I could find some old old spruce somewhere. I was once told that Karibyan's braces and tops were made out of 100 year old
spruce. An exageration, I am sure, but it was told to me as fact. Even if they were only half that age, that is still old wood! I know Kyvelos and
others use spruce that is decades old.
Dincer's website clearly shows his bracing pattern. So does DocOs book, and Jameels posts.
So, I fitted the last rib on one side, and before it was dry, I moved the oud, the rib got stuck in a drawer, and cracked. Gotta remove that rib and
replace it now
That glue is going to be tough to get off the surface of the bowl.Jameel - 12-9-2005 at 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
That glue is going to be tough to get off the surface of the bowl.
Sharp cabinet scraper. One of the most awesome tools in woodworking. It's just a piece of steel. Yet so efficient. I love then. Are you familiar with
it? Let me know, it's a great tool, and I'd be glad to give you some pointers.Dr. Oud - 12-10-2005 at 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan....Anybody happen to have pictures of the bracing pattern that Karibyan used?
It would really be nice if I could find some old old spruce somewhere. I was once told that Karibyan's braces and tops were made out of 100 year old
spruce. An exageration, I am sure, but it was told to me as fact. Even if they were only half that age, that is still old wood! I know Kyvelos and
others use spruce that is decades old......
I had a Karibyan that was not 100 year old spruce (when I got it). But I can attest to the value of old wood. I have collected spruce through the
years, saving the oldest for special nu\builds or restorations. 100 years is very rare for spruce, or any wood outside the violin world. Most of the
old wood is traded among violin makers and never gets to the public market. You can try the instrument exhibitions and conventions to find old wood.
I scored some 20-39 year old sprucve from the estate of Robert Lundberg in that way. I also salvaged some spruce braces from an old piano I found in
the alley that had been destroyed during a kegger party. You may search second hand stores or piano repair shops or salvage yards for old furniture
and may find some old spruce drawer bottoms.
As for Karibyan's braces: you can see the bracing shapes in the Hamza Usta Restoration thread- brace shapes
and the original location pattern- brace locations
You will have to make some calculations to find the locations for your bowel - find the ratio of the length of your bowel relative to the Hamza Usta
face, (enlarge and print the photo and measure carefully from the the tail end) then apply the ratio to find the location of each brace in your bowel.
Do the same for the hole sizes as well. You will need to do this anyway unless your bowel is exactly yhe same length as a Karibyan. Hamza Usta used
exactly the same brace shapes as Karibyan (they both are based on Manol) and the location of the braces on the Hamza Usta must be good to get the
sound it produces. Hamza Usta videoJonathan - 12-10-2005 at 11:39 AM
Doc, I have been staring at those pictures you have posted ever since they went up.
My oud bowl is ending up a little bit wider than I wanted. I know what caused this, and it won't happen next time. Still, I don't think it will be
too difficult to adjust the measurements for my particular oud.
You guys have been incredibly helpful. This would have been impossible without you. Impossible.
If you could give me some idea of the width and height of braces in typical Turkish ouds, I would really appreciate it.
Doc, I am searching for old furniture. I have some great old walnut from an old bed, and some killer mahogany. But, I have not yet found spruce. It
could be that I am not recognizing it. I really am terrible at identifying woods.
All the best.Dr. Oud - 12-10-2005 at 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan....If you could give me some idea of the width and height of braces in typical Turkish ouds, I would really
appreciate it....
OK - The brace forward of the bridge is 6mm wide, all the rest are 5mm. The height ranges from 17 to 13 mm depending on the length of the brace,
except the brace below the small holes. This brace is cut down to 8mm high in the center with the high point on the treble side at 17mm and the bass
side at 14mm. The high point on the rest of the braces is offset 10 mm toward the right or treble side. The butt ends of all the braces are 7mm high.
There is the same crown and alignment features on the soundboard edge as detailed in the book for the Nahat. There ya go!Jonathan - 12-13-2005 at 04:31 PM
Thanks, Doc.
Jameel, I picked up a few cabinet scrapers today. It is amazing how well it works on the wood itself--cleaning up any uneven surfaces at the joints,
especially. I wish it wrked a little bit better on the glue. It does fairly well, but I still have quite a bit of residual glue left in the center
of the ribs. The bowl is not going to be a semi-circle, but rather a collection of line segments, so the glue does tend to remain right there in the
center of the rib. I have a few different sizes of scrapers (I just bought them today), and I guess it is just a matter of taking a lot of time and
doing it. Next time, I will try to do a better job with wiping it off before it dries. Live and learn.
One other important thing that I have noticed:
The titebond, I think, weakens quite a bit if you leave it open for a couple of days. I had inadvertently left it open, used it anyway to set a rib,
and then ended up having to remove the rib. This time, it was not nearly as difficult as when the glue was fresh. Could be that the joint just was
not good (that's why I was removing it), but it was a bit unsettling. In the past, when I have removed ribs, the glue has definitely been tougher
than the wood.Jonathan - 12-13-2005 at 05:01 PM
Almost forgot:
When I am done with the cabinet scraper, I will go to sandpaper:
80, 120, 220, and eventually further.
Any thoughts on pumice/rottenstone?
Guys, once the bowl is done, that was the hard part, right?
Just say yes.oudmaker - 12-14-2005 at 03:57 AM
hello Jonathan
I am keeping track of what you are going through. See how difficult to work with tidebond? I hate to say I told you so but next time when you are
building your bowl use HIDE GLUE! Your perseverance is admirable
Regards
DincerJameel - 12-14-2005 at 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Almost forgot:
When I am done with the cabinet scraper, I will go to sandpaper:
80, 120, 220, and eventually further.
Any thoughts on pumice/rottenstone?
Guys, once the bowl is done, that was the hard part, right?
Just say yes.
After scraping, I use 120, 180, 220, 320, 400, 600. (this is the scedule for using tru-oil, which you can find at http://www.lmii.com) I don't recomend french polish for a beginner. I don't use it. The tru-oil is excellent and easy. You shouldn't need the 80,
since the scraper will make it pretty smooth on it's own. No need for such a coarse grit. Stop after the 120 though until you finish the oud. You will
scratch it again as you build, and negate all your careful work. Pumice/rottenstone is used to rub out pore-filled finishes for a satin (pumice) to
high gloss (rottenstone) finish, not for bare wood. I'd say the bowl is the most technically demanding part as far as joinery goes, at least for me.
Fitting braces is a close second, but with that sanding technique I discovered, it's pretty easy.Jonathan - 12-14-2005 at 02:55 PM
Thanks, Dincer and Jameel.
Yes, Dincer. Hide glue next time. And, the next time I do purfling, I will use your method, as well. The main reason I did not use the hide glue
was that I had no idea how long the bowl would take. I am working on it when I get a chance here and there, and I thought that perhaps I would waste
a lot of glue because of an irregular work schedule.
Jameel, I am not going to go with the French Polish, although I love the look of it. It seems to me that it tends to show every little imperfection
in the wood, too. I have one more rib to add, hopefully tonight.
Going to use Doc's stringer for the neck. Adding the veneers would be tough, I think, and I really have no problems with a plain neck. Actually, the
band from the stringer (ebony) will be decorative, as well.
Going to use Dincer's peg box design.Jonathan - 12-15-2005 at 02:06 PM
I could have saved hours if I was just a bit more careful with that glue. It's coming off, though, just slowly.
I need to trim down the last two ribs--I only fitted them to the one side that was glued to the previous rib, and left the other side pretty much as
it was. Now, I have to file it down (or, plane and file, I guess) to the correct level, flush with the mould.Jonathan - 12-15-2005 at 02:19 PM
.SamirCanada - 12-15-2005 at 04:55 PM
Congradulations!! I didnt speak too much on the thread yet but Iam loving this Jonathan Keep it going. I really admire your work so far I think you
should be proud of that first bowl.
Bravo.revaldo29 - 12-15-2005 at 09:18 PM
Wow jonathan, that is really something to be proud of. Its truly a joy seeing your project come together. I'm not the one building it and i'm excited
to see the bowl. Can't imagine how excited you must be!oudmaker - 12-16-2005 at 02:38 AM
Jonathan
Give us a detail picture of your bowl`s neck block end.
Dincerbcearthtones - 12-16-2005 at 06:14 AM
Looks Great so far , I'm really enjoying watching your oud come together,
Cheers,
ScottJonathan - 12-16-2005 at 07:45 AM
Thanks, guys. Very, very much. There were quite a few times that I almost gave up on this bowl. There are still things about it that I am not happy
with, but I am glad that I kept going with it.
The main problem is that the ribs are not all the same size. It's not that big of a deal when the back is made out of one wood, but, here, it is more
noticeable, particularly at the neck and tail. Nothing terrible, and somebody that wasn't an oud player probably wouldn't even look at that. But, it
is something that I always look at--I check the bottom, and see if the ribs are all the same size. Picky, I guess, but to me that is a sign of
incredible craftsmanship if they are.
Unfortunately, I didn't reach that here. Nowhere near it. Still, in all, I think the bowl looks good. Nice shape. Nice woods. Just a fun looking
bowl.
Dincer, I will try to get some pictures up when I get some more of the glue scraped off those areas--but, I am guessing I wont get too much done over
the next two weeks.Jonathan - 12-20-2005 at 06:57 PM
I have only used the cabinet scraper, and the 60 grit sandpaper, but I used the spirits to check to see what areas of glue still remained. Man, I
love the way the wood looks when it is on!
The flames on the maple are really starting to pop out nicely. I can't wait until I have this thing really sanded down well.Jonathan - 12-20-2005 at 07:02 PM
That end cap is going to cover up a lot of problems. You can see what I mean--the ribs are not the same width. It is a lot less noticeable, though,
when the cap is in place. Still not glued in yet. This one is clearly too large. Have to trim it down. Still toying with the idea of inlaying a
little design in there. Probably just something really simple, like in that design above, or else the whole thing starts to look too busy. Those
horizontal bands in the circle, though, seem OK.
That's about all I will get done until after the first week of the year.Peyman - 12-20-2005 at 07:59 PM
That looks really nice... I like the arrangement of the ribs too. I think what you figured is working out.Lebanon - 12-20-2005 at 11:13 PM
Jonathan what a great OUd that will be . Love it ,it looks great.The wood is real nice.the color conbination is great. Better than a Nahat....
Regards Samir CaliforniapaulO - 12-21-2005 at 02:39 PM
Hi Jonathan,
Not like it hasn't been said before, but it looks better with every step !! Best of luck with the face, and thanks for sharing the project with us.
Reagards...PaulJonathan - 12-25-2005 at 06:34 PM
Thanks guys.
First off, for those of you celebrating Christmas today, Merry Christmas. You're a bit too early, but that's OK--Merry Christmas!
Wish I had the ability to post some pics, but, unfortunately, right now I do not.
Got the oud off of the mould. No small task, because I had carelessly let glue drip onto the mould in the beginning of the project. After several
ribs had been set up, I then covered the bulk heads with clear plastic. But, in the beginning, I screwed up, and glued the oud to the mould in a few
spots. Well, more than a few.
The good news, though, is that I got the oud off of the mould. I had to destroy the mould to do it, but I got the oud off, and it held up very
nicely. Strong, and light. I really am happy with it.
It is wider than I planned--about 3 cm altogether. Yeah, that is a big difference, I know, but I know what caused the problem, and it will not happen
with the next one.
So, now a question--
Just what does papering the inside of the oud do? I can't believe that it makes the joints stronger. I suppose applying glue along every joint does
make it stronger, but why the paper? What good does the paper itself do? Is it mostly cosmetic?
Actually, to me, it seems like it would make sense to have some supporting band (a thin piece of veneer?) running perpendicular to the length of the
ribs. When I have seen bowls fail, they tend to split open along the vertical axis, and I would think that some support/band running in the
horizontal direction would be helpful. Even, perhaps, some of that super light fiberglass mesh, covered with a thin layer of glue. Any thoughts? I
know what I am suggesting is heresy--pretty nontraditional. Just thoughts running through my head.Elie Riachi - 12-26-2005 at 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
So, now a question--
Just what does papering the inside of the oud do? I can't believe that it makes the joints stronger. I suppose applying glue along every joint does
make it stronger, but why the paper? What good does the paper itself do? Is it mostly cosmetic?
......Just thoughts running through my head.
I pondered the same Jonathan and I almost decided not to use paper at all. The more I thought about it though it seem that the paper tape provides
enforcement and here is how in my opinion: If you were to take the ribs and flatten them and lay them next to each other, you will see that they will
touch at the widest part only and gap between them will get large as you get closer to the ends. Let us say that the glued ribs naturally tend to
flatten or relax a little, in this case the glued paper tape will provide the resistive force by preventing these gaps from forming which is the same
as helping hold the ribs together in the formed shape and keeping the bowl from falling apart.
Elieoudmaker - 12-26-2005 at 04:53 AM
Jonathan
The paper inside the oud along the sims has following functions:
1- It gives strength to the joint. Pick a rectengular piece of paper and try to break it by pulling both along the length and along the width of it.
(Not ripping it)If you compare with any wood veneer you will see paper is much more stronger. So is the reinforcing function.
2- It gets rid of the corner of the joint. I dont know how to put it but it makes inside of the bowl much cleaner and rounder. Sound does not like
sharp corners. Some old not too good ouds has just additional glue been put that joints with some saw dust in order to echive that round shape.
3- Again veneer verses paper: It is almost imposible to have a veneer strip at the jiont because it is very hard to glue it. Paper just lays down
neatly over the joint. It is one of the few locations I use modern white glue. I use not just any paper but the paper ordinarry shopping paperbags
made from. They are much stronger, thicker and their color is much better than white paper.
Regards
DincerJonathan - 12-26-2005 at 07:00 PM
Thanks, gentleman. I papered the bowl today.
I did one more thing, and hopefully it won't cause a lot of upset.
It seems to me that when the bowl fails, the split is along the glue joint of the rib. I understand that the papering helps.
In addition (don't get angry), I used some fiberglass mesh tape. This is incredibly lightweight, and I ran 6 strips horizontally accross the back of
the bowl, tacked it down lightly with glue, and then papered in the usual fashion. It seems like it would make the back stronger, but I could be
wrong. If it does nothing, there is no harm done (I hope). It weighs almost nothing, and just required a tiny bit more glue. I will try to get a
picture of it up later.
Worked on the pegbox today. I don't have a peg reamer yet, but I have drilled some small holes where the peg holes are going. Turned out OK, I
think.Jameel - 12-26-2005 at 07:29 PM
Glad to hear your progress, Jonathan. Looking forward to some pics.
I haven't experienced what Elie is referring to. Once the ribs are bent, and the wood cools, the wood fibers do not "remember" their original shape.
I've bent ribs hanging around the shop (some going on 4 years) that are the same shape now as the day I bent them, not to mention some older
steam-bent furniture that hasn't returned to it's original flatness. Have you found that ribs you've bent have returned to flat, Elie? What species of
wood?Elie Riachi - 12-27-2005 at 12:05 AM
Jameel,
Now isn't most bent furniture made of laminates that are glued together in the bent shape (which is not how the bowl is made)? I am saying that just
in case they decide to go flat. Well actually I was giving an example which would make the point of how these paper tapes would enforce and
strengthen the bowl (but again, I guess I gave an extreme example.) So as the player straddles the oud, there could be a slight flattening force.
The strips also serve in two other situations:
- Imagine forces applied to bowl at the top edge and outwards, in this case the paper type will experience a tensile force and react to it, without
the tape, the glue joints between the ribs will experience a tensile force and react to it. With the tape the tensile strength of the joint doesn't
have to be as strong as without since the tape is contributing some enforcement here and like Mr. Dincer mentioned the tensile strength of these paper
tapes is considerable. The strain here is the largest at the ends of the ribs.
- Another situation would be the opposite of the above where the forces are trying to pull the ribs apart but inward, again paper tape comes to the
rescue with its tensile strength. In this case the strain is the largest at the widest points of the ribs.
I am with Mr. Dincer the brown paper bag looks better than the white paper tape, also when compared to using veneer, I think paper has the advantage
that the fibers are going in all directions while one would have to pay attention to the grain in the veneer; paper is most likely lighter for the
strength and much easier to work with (you'll have to bend the veneer and match the curvature of the bowl or the bowl would be stressed.) So next
time at the supermarket when asked paper or plastic? my answer will be: paper please.
ElieJameel - 12-27-2005 at 07:17 PM
It does make sense for bent lamination, where the glue holds the laminates together in their shape. And with yellow glues capability of creeping, it
might be an issue. But on true steam-bent furniture, it's not the case. (oud ribs are bent using the same principle). There is plenty of steam-bent
furniture made nowadays.Dr. Oud - 12-28-2005 at 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Elie Riachi....the brown paper bag looks better than the white paper tape, ... So next time at the supermarket when
asked paper or plastic? my answer will be: paper please.
Elie
Shopping bag paper is made from random fibers, mostly from discarded rags and contains undetermined chemicals left over from the original source of
the fiber as well as acids from the processing of the paper itself. I have found old ouds with common paper strips completely delaminated and falling
off.
Parchment is the only paper made from pure cellulose (the same as wood) and is capable of absorbing glue into the fiber - unlike rag based papers. It
is also free of any chemicals including the acids used to process common paper.
White glue is polyvinyl (plastic) and does not infuse into the material (wood or paper) but relies on surface adhesion. In addition it never cures to
a chrystalline condition (like hide glue) and is always remains flexible, and so it absorbs vibration. The use of parchment paper to reinforce wood
joints has been proven effective by guitar and lute repairs for more than a hundred years.
The use of materials like glass fiber may be good for building a boat, but is not used by any instrument making or repair process I know of. The
different coefficient of expansion/contraction of dissimilar materials should be carefully considered due to the fragile structure of the oud. A
material too dissimilar could damage the oud simply by expanding or contracting faster or more than the wood.Jonathan - 12-28-2005 at 06:00 PM
Wish I could post some pics, but I am having some software problems. My Photoshop is not working somehow, and I don't have any other way to shrink
the photos for the forum. One way or another, I will have pics up in about a week.
Bowl papered. Neck mounted. Peg box done but not reamed, and not yet mounted to neck. Made the bridge. I have the week off, so I am getting a lot
done.
The bowl really did take on some weight when I papered it. I didn't think I was using that much glue, but I guess I must have.
Anyhow, it is what it is.
The thing is, the oud really fits the category of an Arabic oud rather than a Turkish oud, because, like I said, it ended up a bit bigger than I had
planned. Any idea how much an Arabic oud is supposed to weigh? I really don't know. I do know that they are significantly heavier than the typical
Turkish oud.
Any thought on the utility of carving some wood out of the neck block? Is there any advantage to this other than cutting out some weight? I don't
mind doing it if it gets rid of a few ounces, unless you guys tell me it is going to cause problems. I would also hate to inadvertently crack the
neck block.
Hopefully, pictures in a week or so.
Again, guys, thanks a lot!Jameel - 12-28-2005 at 06:31 PM
Glad to hear things are going well. But your killing us with no photos!
Get that software going my man. There is a bit of crossover I think between ouds Turkish vs. Arabic. Especially with Syrian ouds, they tend to be
smaller than say, Egyptian ouds, but that's not a rule. Some of Gameel George's ouds are rather smallish for Egyptian, others large. Same with Nahats.
It's really the scale length and tuning difference that make it Turkish, at least to me. When I showed oud No. 002 to Simon Shaheen he immediately
lofted it slightly into the air (like you do with something you're testing the weight of) and said "khafeef!, nice". This oud is as light as any
Turkish oud I've handled, and way lighter than typical arabic ouds. My Sukar feels like a tank. You know how light no. 001 is. But you've got me
thinking, I'm going to weigh this oud and get back to you about it. Maybe Dincer can chime in on carving out the neck block. I don't think it's a
typical Nahat feature (not really sure), but I've noticed it on Turkish ouds for sure. I'm really excited to see the finished oud. I have a feeling it
is going to sound great.
Oud Weights
Jameel - 12-28-2005 at 06:41 PM
Khalaf Oud No. 002
1 lb. 15oz. / .88 Kilos
Ibrahim Sukar
2 lb. 13 oz. / 1.28 KilosJonathan - 12-28-2005 at 07:19 PM
Thanks, Jameel. I think I just need to go over the bowl one more time and sand it down a bit more. The ribs are still about 2.4 mm--just too thick.
I will go back to the 60 grit in the morning, and try to get a bit more off, and work my way back up to 220. That will take some of the weight off.
I don't think I will be too far off--and I really would like to trim a bit of that neck block off, if nobody raises any objections.
I used maple for the neck. I know it is a bit heavy. But, strong. And, I used an ebony stringer down the middle, with an eighth of an inch strip of
lacewood on each side of the ebony. I know I could have gone with a lighter wood, but I wanted the colors on the bowl (maple, lacewood, and black
purfling) to follow through on the neck. Looks good, but it cost me some ounces.
Found an old, crude, handmade bookcase, covered with some cruddy contact paper. Has to be at least 30 years old, maybe more. I swear, though, it
looks like spruce under that contact paper. Again, I will have to post some pics. Might try to use it for the face or, at the very least, the
braces. That's the part that is scaring me a bit, and is going to take me a long, long time--I just want that to be perfect. Of course, absolutely
nothing has been perfect so far, but I swear I am going to try to do a good job on that.
Oh, the bridge, I guess. So far, that's the only thing that really turned out like I wanted. Pictures Monday, I hope.oudmaker - 12-29-2005 at 07:38 AM
Most of ouds that I saw by known Turkish oudmakers have the neck blok carved to some degree. Manol and Onnik included.
I carve the block not becouse of the weight reduction but regardless how small it will be, to add some volume to the air inside the bowl. I do not
touch below the neck dove-tail area. Never had a problem.
Jonattan:
To use maple for neck which is relatively hard wood is not a good choice. Hard woods are intend to deform more than softh woods. The reason is most of
the hard wood do not have straight grain which I think couses the to deform under bending forces. Make a experiment Have a strip of soft wood say
spruce with straight grain perpendicular to the bending plane and try to bend it even by heat and compare any hard or semihard wood of same size and
shape. You will see spruce has much more resistans against bending.
I use spruce for the neck. Also it is lighter.
Regards and a very Happy New Year to all.
DincerJonathan - 12-29-2005 at 09:01 AM
Thanks, Dincer. I saw the photographs of the neck block on your website, and I will try to take out a similar amount.
I appreciate the information on the neck. Unfortunately, it is mounted, and at this point, I think I will leave it there.
I have learned so much building this oud. Sadly, I have learned it through mistakes.
I am at a point now where I can't wait to start my next oud, simply because I know I can do it much better.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 09:36 AM
.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 09:42 AM
Ah, I think I figured out how to shrink photos using Picassa. Cool. Now I can add some pics. Above, the bridge. Mahogany, with tiny sliver of
maple between 2 slivers of ebony. I like how it turned out. Still have to drill the holes in it, and shine it up a bit. But, I really like it.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 09:43 AM
Peg box.
The scrolling top is lacewood and maple sandwiched together. Kind of a copy of a picture of one of Dincer's scrolls that I saw (maybe Lee's?). Of
course, not done nearly as well. But, I really like the look, and the scrolling top of the peg box typical of Turkish ouds. Holes not reamed yet.
The back of the peg box just has layers of maple and pearwood (I think) next to each other. Should have stuck with lacewood and maple--I don't know
why I switched. Still, I think it has a nice, graceful line to it.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 09:47 AM
The neck. I know, the papering is a bit sloppy. I will have to clean it up. I used Doc's stringer method. Next to the ebony are two fine strips of
lacewood. Can't see it too much here, and of course this will end up getting covered up by the ebony fingerboard. But, it looks nice on the backJameel - 12-29-2005 at 09:56 AM
Nice pics, Jonathan. I think though that your comment about sadly learning through mistakes is wrong. Making mistakes is the best way to learn (short
of studying under a master, which also involves mistakes), without a doubt. If you know what can go wrong, you can make sure you do it right.
Which direction is the grain on those pieces you used for the back of the pegbox? It looks perpendicular to the length of the pegbox.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 10:00 AM
It is Jameel. Is that bad? I figured that that really was just decorative--I don't think that there is much strain on there at all. Or, am I wrong?
If so, I can change it without too much difficulty (I think).Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 11:38 AM
Peg box is not yet on, but I thought I would get a rough idea of what it will look like on the oud.
You can see I should have made a template when I put the tail cover on, to avoid getting glue on the area that I already sanded. That's going to be
tough to get off now, but I will get it done. Also, a small area of glue on the side that I have to remove.
For some reason, this photo makes it look as though the neck is pitched up, but it is not.oudmaker - 12-29-2005 at 12:02 PM
I like the RUG!!Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 12:33 PM
Thanks. Me, too. Hereke.Jameel - 12-29-2005 at 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
It is Jameel. Is that bad? I figured that that really was just decorative--I don't think that there is much strain on there at all. Or, am I wrong?
If so, I can change it without too much difficulty (I think).
I don't think it's bad. But that is not the best way to orient the grain. And I think for the pegbox one single piece of wood there is best. I've seen
lutes with this piece pretty-much carved away, so it may not be totally necessary, but I wouldn't want to try it without it. The pegbox gets the brunt
of handling stress when tuning, and over time an absent or weakened back might cause some premature wear. Just my theory.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 04:17 PM
I've got a problem that is driving me crazy, and I hope somebody can help me.
I have followed the good doctor's advice--the bowl was sanded down, the edges made with the dip, everything according to plan. I mounted the neck,
clamped it, and thought all was going well, until I realized that, contrary to what I wrote above, the neck is pitched up slightly. Must have
happened when I clamped it. Too much force, I don't know.
So, I used the sander, and tried to fix things on the neck so that the pitch is correct, but I really can't do too much there--the notch for the peg
box has been cut, and I really don't have a lot of room.
So, I guess my question is, when the oud is lying flat, should the neck lie in the same plane as the body of the oud? My guess is that it should and
that, once strings are in place, there will be some slight inward bowing of the neck.
Now what? I guess I could remove the neck. Yeesh. I will end up destroying everything. If I sawed it off, I guess I would have to build a new one.
Not that big of a deal in the long run, but is there a simpler way? I could make some adjustments with the ebony fingerboard, I suppose, making it
just a tiny bit higher as it nears the neck block.
I will try to post some pics so this is clear.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 04:19 PM
I don't know how clear this picture is, but, when the oud (with the neck) is lying flat, there is a 1/4 inch gap between the table and the oud at the
junction of the neck to the block.Dr. Oud - 12-29-2005 at 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan...when the oud is lying flat, should the neck lie in the same plane as the body of the oud? ....Now what?....
The fingerboard surface of the neck should be set back 2mm from the plane of the body blocks. This means that if you put a straight edge across the
tail and neck blocks, the top end of the neck should have a 2mm gap. This will provide the optimum string action when the oud is first strung, and
allow for some adjustment of the string loops. It also allows for some adjust over time as the oud bends under the string tension. The current
condition of your oud will make the action too high to play.
You have 2 options:
1- Remove, and remount the neck.
2- Trim down the tail block to get the 2mm set back.
A tapered fingerboard on top of the face will require the bridge to be higher than normal and may be too much for the glue joint as the bridge's
moment arm is increased - not a preferable choice.
Next time use hide glue to mount then neck so you can dismantle it later with warm water, hot knifes and/or steam. Using hide glue will also obviate
the use of clamps. If the glue joint is well fitted the oud can be positioned so the neck is vertical and the glue will set without using clamps. Only
hide glue can be applied in this manner.Jameel - 12-29-2005 at 06:46 PM
Too bad, Jonathan. This is a critical step and it seems something bad happened. Not to worry. I had the same problem, only the opposite, on No. 002.
(The neck was set back too far, and I had to put a tapered fingerboard to raise the action. See pics of the oud and you can clearly see the edge tiles
are thicker toward the nut.) Follow Richard's advice. Specifically, trim down the tail block. You'll lose a bit of back depth, but it sure beats
re-doing the entire neck.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 07:45 PM
Thanks, guys.
I am going to try to remove the neck with some heat, hopefully not destroying all of the other joints at the neck block in the process. I tried with
just a hair dryer without success, but tomorrow I will get more aggressive.
I really appreciate the help. I think I got careless with those clamps when I was setting the neck.
I think I would have to trim too much off of the tail to make this right.Elie Riachi - 12-29-2005 at 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Oud
A tapered fingerboard on top of the face will require the bridge to be higher than normal and may be too much for the glue joint as the bridge's
moment arm is increased - not a preferable choice.
But if the glue joint can take it it'll make the oud louder, no?
By the way Doc, what do you recommend using for paper tape without all the unknown chemicals if one wants darker colors such as brown, tan or black?
Would brown mailing paper be as good as parchment paper or is the same as brown paper bags?Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 08:31 PM
OK, it's off. I could not remove it intact. The tite-bond did hold it well, and that stringer method of yours really does give a nice tite joint
there, Doc. So, I sawed it off, and had to saw off the remnants of the stringer.
Fine with me. I wasn't that happy with the neck. Too heavy. Tomorrow, hopefully, I will be able to get some mahogany and more ebony. Or, if I can
find some decent older spruce, I will use Dincer's suggestion.
I really hate it when the action is high, and I know that if that was the case, I just would not play this oud.
Thanks again, guys. I am glad it's off.Jonathan - 12-29-2005 at 09:19 PM
So, Doc, just to clarify--
At this point, when I mount the neck, it will be set back 2mm, but still the neck will be completely flat.
Then, at the end, when I add the ebony fingerboard, that 2mm disappears, right?
Or, are you saying that, when the ebony is on, the top of the fingerboard still goes back 2 mm at the top?
Sorry, I know this must seem obvious, but I just have to make sure.SamirCanada - 12-30-2005 at 05:08 AM
It is a question I had about seting the neck when I did my oud fixing. I made you a little diagram to visualise why it has to be setback. I didnt
understand why it wasnt strait but its much clearer now. Because the brige is elevated you need the neck to be perpendicular with the strings not with
the face. Your nut should be around 1mm high and depending on the hight of the holes in your brige ( also depending on how you will tie your strings
high loops or low loops but I think the Doc is advising you to keep yourself some room to play with that to fine tune the action) It will determine
exactly how much setback will be needed. But you should aim for that 2mm.
Iam extremely impressed by your work and your determination Jonathan. Hopefully this was of any help even tho there are far more knowlegable people
here. And above all Iam enjoying this thread a lot. Keep it tight Jonathan and good luck.Jonathan - 12-30-2005 at 07:52 AM
That makes it very clear. Thank you.Dr. Oud - 12-30-2005 at 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Elie Riachi...But if the glue joint can take it it'll make the oud louder, no?
By the way Doc, what do you recommend using for paper tape without all the unknown chemicals if one wants darker colors such as brown, tan or black?
Would brown mailing paper be as good as parchment paper or is the same as brown paper bags?
A higher bridge would provide more torque on the face and probably produce more volume, but I don't know what the result would sound like. The only
experience I have with very high bridges is a delaminated glue joint, or if the glue holds, a big hole in the face - not worth the risk in my
opinion.
Parchment is the only paper made with pure cellulose, everything else has some rag content (according to my art paper expert). The key characteristic
of parchment is it's ability to absorb hot hide glue into the fibers making a much stronger material of infused fiber. It does come in colors as I
found a pad of different colored sheets, but I got a pad of yellow for about $7. Larger sheets are available, but cost much more per sq inch, so I
decided to overlap the ends to make the span.
Samir has explained the setback most effectively - good job!
Spruce is used in a neck covered with veneer. The surface of spruce is too soft to resist the wear of your left hand. Spruce will bend as well anyway,
as it is the lamination of the veneers that adds stiffness. They act like an exoskeleton in the same way as the stringer adds stiffness as an
endosketal component. Mahogany and maple are woods used for necks on many instruments, and I don't believe there's a big difference in weight over a
spruce core neck so much that you would notice it (after you add the veneer and glue). Weight matters in the face construction, anywhere else it is an
affectation.Jonathan - 12-30-2005 at 09:30 AM
I am going to use mahogany for the neck this time, with a rosewood stringer.Jonathan - 12-31-2005 at 08:14 PM
Made another neck, and threw that one out, too.
The trouble is with the neck block--I made it a bit too big. I like a thin neck--easier for me to play.
So, I made a 1/4 inch band of lacewood, added it to the top of the neck block, and sanded it to shape so that it blended with the surrounding bowl.
Workied really well, and it looks good. Now, I can make a more traditional looking neck, rather than the sloping one I had above. My vacation is
over, though, so I know I will not get too much done on the oud for a while.Jonathan - 1-1-2006 at 03:01 PM
I hate traveling with an oud. Hate it.
I just returned from a one week vacation out of state--I took my oud project with me to get some work done. I had a nice hard case, though, and
wasn't too worried. I checked it in for my return flight this AM, and, of course, there was a problem.
Security obviously openned up the case, because half of the latches were undone. And my guess is that they picked up the oud and dropped it, because
the result is shown below.
And it was obviously taken out of its case, because the missing piece is nowhere to be found.
I really don't feel like taking that rib off. I may end up just sanding everything down 3/8 of an inch--that will likely take care of it. Not sure.
Gotta get away from it for a while.Jameel - 1-1-2006 at 03:23 PM
Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!! That really stinks. I feel for you. I would have raised absolute hell with the airline. You should, and you should demand some
compensation. Look on the bright side. It's not one of your old Varjabedians, or Karybians. It could be worse......still sucks though. Make sure there
aren't cracks anywhere else. The force required to take out that chunk could very well have damaged the bowl elsewhere. I'm pulling for you, Jonathan.Jonathan - 1-1-2006 at 03:50 PM
The only good thing is that the glue joints held. I feel good about that.
On second thought, I am not sure that the sanding down approach will work. I might have to tough it out, and replace that rib. Not looking forward
to it.
The other thing, though, is that it reinforces to me not to ever use lacewood again--I think the stuff is prone to cracking. I have seen it used on
two ouds in the past, though, and the results were great.Elie Riachi - 1-1-2006 at 11:23 PM
Man this really stinks. I would raise hell with the airline and demand a compensation from them at least for the time you spent making and assembling
the rib, the labor to remove it, the time for making and assembling a new one and the cost for the raw material used wood, glue etc. I know that I
will start putting a sticker on the case which reads "Delicate Musical Instrument - HANDLE WITH CARE"Jonathan - 1-2-2006 at 02:46 PM
I just don't see why it got manhandled. Just something they never saw before, I guess.
I wish there was a way to repair it without taking that rib off. I don't want to sand it down, because I will lose some depth and, perhaps,
volume.
If I could figure out a way to put something decorative there, and not have it look strange, I would.
In the end, though, I know I will end up replacing it.
In the meantime, I am working on the rest of the oud (I am now on neck number 3), and I will leave that part for a little while.oudmaker - 1-2-2006 at 04:40 PM
Patch it Jonathan. Just patch it!! Cut the damaged area to have beveled edges than insert a piece of same wood to fitted to the same bevel with a same
curvature and glue it. Clean it. You just perform a restoration job which is called wood surgery in our craft. Go ahead do it. Do you know it takes
more craftsmanship to restore an instrument then make it? Here is your chance!! Good luck
DincerJonathan - 1-2-2006 at 04:48 PM
Thanks, Dincer. That's all I needed.
I will patch it.Jonathan - 1-4-2006 at 03:05 PM
I am getting ahead of myself a bit, but do you guys recommend German spruce? I know it is used a lot. I don't want Sitka spruce, do I? Just going
through the lmii list.
Again, thanks!Jonathan - 1-5-2006 at 12:07 PM
I want to start working on the rosettes and the purfling that I am going to put around them. At first, I was going to go for that traditional Turkish
ebony (or at least black wood) bands surrounding the rosettes. But, as I noted earlier, the body of the instrument is a bit wider than I had planned
on, and I think I may go ahead and used the tiled edge purfling around the rosettes and around the face.
I looked at Jameels website, again and again, and then again, and still marvel at how meticulous he was, and how good the purfling came out. Just
brilliant. After cutting and trimming the small pieces of purfling, he then laid them into a chanel that he superficially cut on the face, and it
turned out incredible.
Is there another way to do this? I was wondering if it would be possible to somehow lay out the purfling, and glue it all together, perhaps using
some sort of circular guide/template, and then removing the template at the end and inserting the circle of purfling into the face. My fear, of
course, is that it would all collapse when transfering it to the face, but I think I could do it without breaking it.
I am also interested in anybody's thoughts on rosette material, keeping in mind that I really have no experience with cutting something like this. I
was thinking of using wood (maple?). I ruled out bone, because at this stage of the game I think it will be too difficult for me. Unlike some
people, I really have no problems with synthetic material/plastics. I have seen some old ouds with a primitive plastic (bakelite, maybe?) that just
looked great. I have also heard mircada (sp?) mentioned, but I confess that I have no idea what it is.
Thanks!Elie Riachi - 1-5-2006 at 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
....I am also interested in anybody's thoughts on rosette material, keeping in mind that I really have no experience with cutting something like this.
.....
Richard has a method for doing a tile rosette (I call the ring around the sound hole the rosette, ala guitar, and the "shams" the rose) outside, then
gluing in the channel. He's shown me pics before, maybe he'll post them.
Micarta is a compressed paper-based material that you can get from knife suppliers. Najarian's roses look pretty nice and they are micarta. If you
ask him where he gets his, and what color/type he uses, I would be very interested. Try Jantz supply or Masecraft. Both have websites. You can also
get some nice bone slabs from these places.oudplayer - 1-8-2006 at 04:47 AM
hey jon
wow man you are working really hard anfd its looking really nice
thx sammyJonathan - 1-8-2006 at 08:31 PM
Thanks, guys.
Jameel, you are right--the rosettes ought to be that ring outside of the shams, like guitar terminology. Confusing.
Made the third neck, and this one turned out OK. Mahogany, with a 1/4 inch ebony stringer, and a couple of bands of wenge in there for looks.
Saved me a heck of a lot of weight over the maple that I had on there earlier. And, like I mentioned, I put a "cap" of lacewood/maple over the neck
block to effectively make the neck block smaller. This let me make a more traditional neck.
I like it, and this time the angle is much better. There really isn't a significant drop this time--I did not get that 2mm that I was aiming for.
Instead, it is pretty much flat. I am happy with that and, if necessary, I can alway sand it down a bit to achieve that 1 or 2 mm drop.
The problem is with the clamping--it is tough to get those clamps to run in the exact same plane as the neck, so you get a little "pull", I guess.
Going to order the face and braces tomorrow, I hope.Jonathan - 1-8-2006 at 08:47 PM
I guess I never put a picture up of the tail cover. Not exactly traditional, and it's kind of big, I know. But I'm a newbie at this and, like said
before, if it was significantly smaller, it would have been too obvious that the ribs were different sizes. You can see that I should have masked the
area around the cover, because there is still some glue there that I have to scrape off.Jameel - 1-8-2006 at 08:52 PM
Neat, Jonathan. I can't wait to add it to the IOD (Internet Oud Database). This is definitely going to be a unique oud. I bet you already have the
next one in the works. Be extra diligent with the face and bracing. I guarantee that if this oud ends up playing and sounding great, all the little
visual discrepancies will be the farthest thing from your mind.Jonathan - 1-8-2006 at 09:08 PM
Thanks, Jameel. I just wanted to draw the eyes away from the ends of the ribs, so I put that little round thing in the center of the tail cover. I
think it does the job.
So far, there has only been one thing on this oud that turned out exactly as I had planned--the peg box cap!
I am going to spend a lot of time on the face and braces. I don't care how long it takes, I really want to get that as perfect as possible.Dr. Oud - 1-10-2006 at 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan--I did not get that 2mm that I was aiming for. Instead, it is pretty much flat. I am happy with that and, if
necessary, I can alway sand it down a bit to achieve that 1 or 2 mm drop.
The problem is with the clamping--it is tough to get those clamps to run in the exact same plane as the neck, so you get a little "pull", I guess.
...
A flat alignment will work especially if you relieve the face for string clearance. The 2mm is for super low action and future adjustment. I'd be
cautious about sanding the neck down to get the action as it can weaken the peg box notch unless the stringer is continuous through the peg box.
Yea, neck clamping is tricky - you need to check the alignment as soon as you put the pressure on the clamp to be sure it isn't pulling the neck over
too much. If you use hide glue and make the neck/block joint fit really well you don't need to clamp it at all. Hide glue will pull the joint together
as it cures, so you just push it together and prop the oud upright so the neck doesn't fall off while the glue sets. Try it next time, and there will
be a next time, I'm sure. BTW - I think your peg box rear wall looks fine. I don't think there's much strength difference with a continuous piece and
many oud peg boxes I've seen use a piece of veneer with not much strength anyway. Yours is a clever use of those pieces of scrap we end up with that
are too expensive to throw away, but don't seem fit anywhere - I've got boxes full of them.Jonathan - 1-11-2006 at 10:23 AM
Thanks, Doc. The one thing I think I have learned is never to throw out any scrap. This woodworking stuff is new to me, but the idea of salvaging
pieces of wood for new projects is pretty satisfying.
Yeah, there is a next time. I am working on a new mould now, and I cut up the wood for the bowl already.Jonathan - 1-13-2006 at 06:12 AM
A couple of questions about the shams
If I were to use plastic, does anybody have any suggestions? I know some of you might shudder, but I really have no problem using it, or some other
synthetic material. It is lightweight, and there are a lot of great ouds that have used them.
Also, if I were to use wood, any suggestions on what wood type I should use? I want to keep it light, of course. I thought mahogany might be a
decent choice, but I really do not know.
My braces and face tonewood are going to show up on the 16th--I can't wait. Hopefully, this weekend, I will start to be able to really draw out the
brace positions and think about brace patterns/rose positions.mavrothis - 1-13-2006 at 06:47 AM
Hi Jonathan,
Walnut is a nice light wood, and I've heard it's easy to stain/paint, so you can alter the color as you wish.
Great to see all your progress Jonathan, your creativity and dedication are very inspiring.
Take care,
mavrothisJameel - 1-13-2006 at 07:41 AM
You can try micarta, or any of the imitation ivory that knife-makers sell. The plastic roses I've seen have all been molded, and from a soft plastic
that would not lend itself to cutting. You need a somewhat brittle material so you can cut it crisply. I'm thinking maybe phenolic might be a good
choice too, but it's like micarta. Here's a link for Micarta. I would ask Najarian where he gets his. I'd be interested to know, if you do find
out.
If you go with wood, the aircraft plywood from the hobby shop is best to cut. No short grain areas. You could always stain it dark if you want a dark
rose. Or leave it natural. That's what I used on my 1st oud. I also have a big chunk of corian that's very white. I haven't cut it yet. You could get
some from a countertop manufacturer. They would probably give you scrap for free.
Good luck with the face. I'm rooting for you.Jonathan - 1-13-2006 at 08:13 AM
Thanks, Mav and Jameel. I am going to go ahead and order some of the ivory mircata today. A little pricey, but it may be worth it. I will give you
guys details when I get it. I appreciate the link.
Shamsaya
sydney - 1-14-2006 at 07:43 AM
Hi Jonathan
Have you thought of laser cutting? It will work for both wood and plastics. so maybe you can think of using wood and spend some money on laser
cutting. You will get a very easy/fast/good/accurate look depends on your design of course.
I think you will need to stain the wood before cutting to make your life easy.
Good luckElie Riachi - 1-15-2006 at 10:40 AM
It is easier to stain before cutting but I am not certain that it is the best sequence with laser cutting since the stain will probably char at the
cut edges, but this may also produce an interesting look. One just has to experiment. I posted a link on laser cutting and the cutter should be able
to give recommendation regarding staining before or after, they were very easy to work with them, fast and reasonable on cost.
Laser cutting
sydney - 1-15-2006 at 02:49 PM
Hi Elie
How are you mate?
If the wood is stained in matt not gloss then nothing will go wrong at all.
With laser cutting thin wood, gets cut with low power roughly 400 - 600 watts/high speed/high pressure air.
The only thing to say here is that the thickness will be dark brown after cutting. Maybe or maybe not this will be a problem for you Jonathan.
I have worked as a laser cutter for 6 years.
Other simillar option to used is Water Jet Cutting.
Nothing will ever happen to your material (stained or not) no matter what it is as long as you clamp it between two thin layers of plastic or even
Aluminium to protect weak spots.
Again .. a high speed is used for this and over 35 PSI of water presure.
Good luckJonathan - 1-15-2006 at 05:48 PM
Thanks, guys, for the advice. This time, I think I am going to cut it the traditional way, although I may consider that laser cutting in the
future.
I am waiting for the mircata--I have no idea if this stuff will work or not, but I thought I would give it a shot. There are different
formulations--I bought the paper-based one. I will give you more details when I get to that part.
Has anybody used a scroll saw for cutting the shams? Or is a jeweler's saw the way to go?
Now, on to the face, and braces.
Like I have mentioned before, the oud came out a bit wider than I wanted. Still, the length is the same, and the depth is the same.
Length is 19 inches, and maximum width is 15 1/2 inches. Actually, I should have deducted about 1/4 of an inch, to make up for the width of the
marker that I was using.
So, even though it is wider, I think I am going to still go with Karibyan's placements of the roses. The base of the small roses is approximately 7
inches from the base of the oud, and the base of the large one is approximately 9 3/4 inches from the base of the oud.
As far as the braces--I am going with 7 unless somebody tells me otherwise. If we start the numbering at the top, then it seems like braces 2, 3, 4,
and 5 have clear spaces where they are supposed to go. 2 is on top of the large sham, 3 is in the middle of it, 4 is at the bottom of it, and 5 is at
the base of the small eyuns.
Any tips on where to place 1, 6, and 7?
While we are at it, just what is the function of the braces? It's not just to support the face, is it? It also transmits vibrations to the bowl.
So, I assume that a nice junction between the braces and the bowl is of the utmost importance (I am definitely going to be using hide glue here). Is
that bottom brace supposed to be angled at all, or does it run paralell with the other braces?
Any thoughts are appreciated.
I got a little sloppy with the sketch, but you get the idea.Jonathan - 1-15-2006 at 06:10 PM
Looking at Dincer's website, it looks like he might put 2 small braces running between braces 6 and 7, and possibly between 1 and 2.
One last thing--does anybody know anything about Titebound hide glue? It is ready mixed, and seems like it would be easy to use.Elie Riachi - 1-15-2006 at 11:47 PM
Hello Emad,
I am fine thank you. That is great that you were a laser cutter bud and helpful to know that the heat doesn't smoke the stain. I used laser cutting
on the roses that I designed and cut them out of aircraft ply, unstained. Next time I am thinking of painting them some ivory color.Elie Riachi - 1-16-2006 at 12:29 AM
Hi Jonathan,
I read somewhere serious advice to avoid using the already mixed hide glue.
You ask a very good question regarding the braces. Here is how I understand the function of the braces: The traverse braces orientation strengthens
the soundboard against the tension force from the strings. This complements the strength provided by the grain of the sound board which runs
longitudinal. The lighter and stronger the soundboard the better, this means that the braces should be stout enough to provide the soundboard with
needed strength but not too stout to weigh it down.
The placement of the braces is also important. For example a brace should not be directly under the bridge. Also, the locations of the braces play a
big role in the voice of the Oud since each location will be where anti-nodes of certain frequencies will be and muting them while at the same time
permitting other frequencies which have nodes at these locations. Also each brace will have a fundamental frequency and will resonate at the
harmonics (integer multiples) of it, therefore enforcing these frequencies. I was told that some luthier perfected the top of a violin, where they
made one to resonate at most frequencies almost equally. People didn't like it and that is because it didn't sound like what they are used to a
violin should sound like (some frequencies weakened while others enforced.)
My guess is that it takes experimenting by the making of several ouds with different brace placement and size and listening to them to get the one
with the board which is pleasantly tuned, once that has been found then the luthier "sort of" has the recipe. So I think it would be easier to copy
some known-to-work pattern, it will not be perfect however (since it requires the fine tuning that the masters have discovered) but sure beats
starting from scratch.Jameel - 1-16-2006 at 07:43 AM
I put a bit more space between the braces around the bridge. Check the photo. This is the Jubran oud. On Khalaf 002 I also shaved brace #3 (from the
bottom) down to about 1/4" high at the middle for about 6" wide. Unless you are copying exactly an existing bracing pattern, you are basically
experimenting. Nothing wrong with that, it's a great way to learn.
As for the rose, check around page 8 at my thread "My Latest Oud" and you'll see a video of my cutting the rose with my trusty scroll saw w/ jeweler's
blade.Elie Riachi - 1-16-2006 at 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jameel
I put a bit more space between the braces around the bridge. Check the photo. This is the Jubran oud. ...
Hi Jameel,
Can you comment on what kind of an effect this has made?Jonathan - 1-16-2006 at 11:08 AM
Thanks, guys. It seems that there would be some sort of mathematical formula for ideal placement of the braces.
On ebay there are some mother of pearl laminate sheets--would mop be too brittle for the shams?Dr. Oud - 1-17-2006 at 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks, guys. It seems that there would be some sort of mathematical formula for ideal placement of the braces.
On ebay there are some mother of pearl laminate sheets--would mop be too brittle for the shams?
Mathmatical formulas usually assume homogenous materials and finite shapes, neither of which are present in an oud's structure. The soundboard is made
of variable material and the body is an exponential shape. I have measured many oud's braces and have not found a consitant pattern. If your oud is
built to a known design, use the pattern that maker used. If your body is unique, you're own your own.
MOP is very brittle, so if you cut it in thin lines for a rose it would probably break unless it is laminated on a stable piece of wood. The Nahat
roses cut in bone are laminated on a piece of hardwood about 1/4 inch thick.Jonathan - 1-17-2006 at 11:25 AM
Seems like good advice. There just seems to be an awful lot of variability in brace patterns.
I notice that in the link that Mav just posted http://www.eliotbates.com/blog/?p=5
there the bottom brace is slanted, too.
I got my spruce yesterday from lmii. Beautiful, beautiful. Still haven't joined it or done much of anything else on it.Elie Riachi - 1-17-2006 at 06:53 PM
Jonathan,
You are right about the variations, but like Doc said If you're not copying exactly, then you're on your own. You may have to experiment, if you have
the time, resources and money. The bottom brace in the link you posted is slanted to make the area around the bridge wider near the bass end of the
bridge, this seems logical and I wonder if this is really effective in enhancing the lower frequencies, which would make sense.
Bracing
Hank Levin - 1-20-2006 at 08:28 PM
Jonathan--
I suggest you use the bracing and spacing in this photo. You know what it is. It's probably the best bracing in the world. I don't have the exact
dimensions---you'll have to estimate the heights from the junk on the bench in the photo. The thickness of most is around 5.5 mm. Note the small size
of the brace just under the small soundholes.
Make sure the grain is perpendicular to the face.
BTW, these braces are MUCH smaller than those shown in the earlier posting.
Face should be about 1.7-2.0 mm. It's really hard to keep it to that tolerance, so I'd consider getting or making some kind of beam (deep-throat)
caliper.
Best of luck with the face, and thanks for sharing the project with us.
