Mike's Oud Forums - Powered by XMB

My next oud project

Pages: 1 2 3 4

Elie Riachi - 9-25-2005 at 11:08 AM

Hi Jameel,
I watched all three shows you mentioned. I like the two ends of the spectrum but the middle one, I never caught on. When I likened you to Norm, I meant in terms of your preference to using power tools and building jigs to achieve exact cuts and tightly fitting pieces which would increase repeatability. Norm's work is as clean, exact, detailed and uniform as yours while preserving the historical correctness of the work. I have seen Norm use hand tools from time to time. I think using modern techniques and tools in building the oud is innovative and may just push the instrument to its fullest potential.

Just look at these Syrian tourist ouds, a close inspection reveals how sloppy the work is and they probably used improperly set up power tools. We all have experienced hand fitted tuning pegs which will not stay in tune, why not use a peg shaver and achieve perfect results in shorter time?

As for the price of the oud assuming that one likes the sound and the way it handles and action and given the inlay work, it should be compatible with the prices other reputable makers are asking. This wouldn't be bad moonlighting activity. Maybe you could start making guitars also!

Price for Quality

LeeVaris - 9-25-2005 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jameel
A few conditions first. Say this oud turns out sounding nice. Not exceptional, but a good, professional-sounding arabic oud that any good player, professional or otherwise would be happy to own and play. And given that you've seen 95% of the complete instrument (fingerboard is all that's left, and it will be inlayed), and pretend for a moment that I'm an established oud maker, what do you think, or rather, what would you be willing to pay for it? I want your unvarnished opinion, be honest, realistic. Since I don't make ouds professionally, and don't have a reputation, I won't be insulted or offended. Heck, I might even be surprised. :wavey:

Well... it seems that, realistically, the best price one could get for a high-quality instrument today is in the neighborhood of $2,000-$2500 in the US - you really should be able to get more like $4000-$5000 but the demand just isn't there for those rates. Well known builders in the middle east routinely sell quality instruments for $600-$800 and even with shipping and a hard case you can get instruments for under $1500. First rate instruments from Turkey are a bit more expensive but still under the upper limit mentioned before. Still, it seems that most (barring the exceptional deal) ouds that are of the very highest quality sound wise and utilize high quality materials like bone nuts, ebony fingerboards, ebony pegs and aged spruce faces are going to end up costing at least $2000.

I would gladly pay that kind of money for your ouds - unfortunately I can'y really afford to pay much more than that (secretly saving up for one of the Doctors ridiculously underpriced ouds)!

Jonathan - 9-25-2005 at 06:01 PM

Jameel--you do not have to be competitive. You have one oud here. You have poured your heart and soul into it, and have created what will be a very nice instrument. You have said that it will be a long time before you start another oud, and, once you start, how long will it take for the next oud to be made? Another year? So, we are looking at 2007 before we are going to see another of your ouds.

You have taken your time with building this oud, so I hope you don't rush the next step--the sale.

I love this interview with Kyvelos:
http://www.nea.gov/honors/heritage/Heritage01/Kyvelos2.html
He talks about how most of the ouds he made sold for less than $1000, and that with those ouds he made about 65 cents per hour. At the time of the interview, though, he stated that he had raised his price to $4000. Were they selling? No. But screw it, he made a good product, he knew it, and that was the price. Good for him.

So figure out how much you spent on this oud. For the materials. Then, be realistic and figure out how many hours you put into it. 200? More? I am sure that the figure is high.

Then, come up with the price. But the kid at McDonald's can't make a masterpiece, and so your compensation should not be the same as his.
And what is the worst that can happen if you put a price on it that others perceive as being too high? It doesn't sell right away. So what? You live with your beautiful oud, and admire the work that you have done.

There will always be a place for $200 ouds. The world needs assembly line ouds. Not all ouds are underpriced. Some ouds are worth exactly what they sell for.

But the true craftsmen should not be obligated to compete with them. It is silly. And yes, we are blessed with some brilliant makers of the oud. Some of them are members of this site. You are not competing with them, either. You are making your oud, and they are making theirs. If you want a Renoir, you pay the price for the Renoir. The price of a Matisse is the price of a Matisse. One is not necessarily better than the other. It is just how it is.

All you want is one customer. The one customer who appreciates your oud, and the work you have done, and is willing to pay the price. You don't want somebody else to have your oud, anyway.

And by the way, that shamsiya is absolutely brilliant.

Jameel - 9-25-2005 at 06:13 PM

You've all written some very insightful comments that have caused some serious inner reflection. I deeply appreciate your time and effort in expressing your sincere thoughts. To clarify, I'm not considering selling this oud just yet. I was simply curious about the price. In fact, the more this oud comes together, the more I enjoy it, regardless of it's sound (obvioulsy). I'm reminded why I built it. To date, the only oud I personally have bought was a broken Sukar for $175 which I repaired and now play. I have no other oud. Ideally, I'd like to own an old Nahat that's in excellent shape, and is very tastefully decorated, and of course sounds great. I realized a while ago that this was pretty remote. So, I decided I would try my best to make an oud that captured the Nahat spirit, and hopefully a semblance of the sound. So far, this project has achieved that for me. The members of this forum, specifically the ones who have taken the time to reply to this thread have played a huge part in the construction of this instrument, and I thank you again for it. You've given me more motivation than I would normally have, and your feedback has been very rewarding. I hope that what I have posted here has been as enjoyable for you as building this oud has been for me. :bowdown:

Edge Tiles

Jameel - 9-25-2005 at 06:21 PM

Finished up the edge tiles. The tool I used to cut the edge I purchased from Lee Valley. It sure beats that little plastic thing I used before. And it's pretty inexpensive too. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=50440&cat=1,4...

I reground one of the blades so it's shaped like a V, so it cuts both directions, and flat on one side, so it cuts square on the edge of the soundboard.

I also had to add a little inlay at the base of the face. After I glued the top on, the center joint opened up about 2cm from the bottom. So this inlay not only covers this, but it also reinforces it.

palestine48 - 9-25-2005 at 07:11 PM

Jameel can you do a short video on how you are doing the inlays. Im amazed and somewhat perplexed by the work. I get the idea but it feels so surreal. I wish my hands were as delicate.

Thanks,

Rami

mavrothis - 9-25-2005 at 07:47 PM

Jameel,

This oud is really spectacular!!! I'm so blown away everytime I see your work and how passionate you are about your techniques...it's true art Jameel, if you do decide to sell this oud, I think you have two things to consider. The first, and most important I think, is will this oud be played with the love you've put into building it? Second, is the price fair in your mind (regardless of what prices others sell their instruments at)?

I almost bought a lavta from my friend Dimitris this summer, which he said was probably the best he'd ever made (and he makes really great lavtas). But I hesitated b/c it's a totally different instrument, and when he saw my hesitation, he didn't think twice about telling me not to take it, to order an oud instead. Why should his beautiful work go to waste? Neither should yours. I say either keep this oud for yourself, or sell it to a player who will love it and play the heck out of it.

Thanks again for sharing all your great work and imagination!

mav

Brian Prunka - 9-25-2005 at 09:22 PM

Jameel, I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of admirers; your work is really beautiful. I can't imagine how impatient you must be to finish it; I think we're all impatient to see and hear the final product.

About selling it; I think Jonathan and Mav have the right idea. This is a unique instrument and as such is worth whatever you feel is appropriate. $4000 doesn't seem unreasonable.
I also like the idea that you should sell it to someone who will play it and really appreciate it.
However, it seems to me that generally the people who can spend the most money on instruments are the collectors. The people who will really play and appreciate the instruments are most likely the ones who can't pay as much, so i think there's a potential contradiction there. Of course there are exceptions; some players, like Simon, can both afford and appreciate great instruments (although when you have several great Nahats, you might not be as interested in contemporary builders).
Another aspect of buying instruments that I have become more aware of recently is whether they will appreciate or not. If I spent money on an old Nahat, I can be pretty sure that it will always be worth at least that much and probably go up in value. For a contemporary luthier's work, it's more of a gamble, unless they're really established.
That said, if you want to know realistically what I would consider paying, my limit would probably be about $2000, assuming I absolutely loved the sound.
really though, I think you should probably keep this oud for yourself, as you originally planned. As much work and care as you put into it, no one deserves to play it as much as you do . . .

Jameel - 9-26-2005 at 03:13 AM

Again, thanks Brian and Mav. Your thoughts are meaningful. And I agree. I don't think I could get what I want for this oud anyway, i.e. what it's worth to me. But who knows, I'm not shutting any doors. One request from you all, keep your fingers crossed that is sounds nice!

Jameel - 9-26-2005 at 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by palestine48
Jameel can you do a short video on how you are doing the inlays. Im amazed and somewhat perplexed by the work. I get the idea but it feels so surreal. I wish my hands were as delicate.

Thanks,

Rami

See pages 1-4 , there are videos there showing the process.

Mike - 9-26-2005 at 08:18 AM

This reminds me of those "priceless" commercials on tv.

I dunno...but I think this is a keeper Jameelo. Even the little inlay on the bottom is beautiful.

Now back to the Norm debate. I like Norm, and I enjoy watching his show. The guy that I don't care for is Bob Vila, the home improvement guy. Now that guy bugs. Anytime you are wearing shorts, shoes with no socks, and a polo shirt and you're showing how to demo a bathroom...that doesn't fly with me.

Jameel - 9-26-2005 at 09:21 AM

I love those ads, Mike. But this oud may end being the punchline if it turns out sounding like a cigar-box banjo. I can see it now:

Price of tools and materials to build one oud: $300+.
Time spent making it: way too long
Remembering you can't play worth a damn anyway: priceless.

But I'd have to say that one of my all-time favorites are the series of Geico ads featuring the cavemen. Love it!

palestine48 - 9-27-2005 at 06:34 PM

I love those bud light radio ads where there is a narator and a band who repeats the praises of some goof ball, like mr jean shorts invenetr. we reallly love your jooorts.

or mr spf 40 sun block wearerrrrr. those are hilarious.

You are from from a goof ball jameel, but bud light is proud to present mr. unusual round instrument maker.

We really love your oudddddddddddd.

Elias - 9-27-2005 at 11:57 PM

WOW! Jameel...this oud is simply fantastic!!!But what timne didi it takes?!?
The decoration are great and so precise....In looking it's really similar to a real Nahat....i look forward to hear it sound!
I hope you don't stop your oud production...
You left me without words...
Mabrouk!! :applause:

elias

Fingerboard and beard inlay....

Jameel - 10-2-2005 at 11:26 AM

On to the next step, the fingerboard abd beard. For a while I've been debating on how to design the fingerboard. First I thought I would do a nice inlay pattern, then a couple months ago, in a moment of impatience and anticipation, I though I'd make it solid bone, very traditional and very "Nahat", and very quick. Or why not plain ebony or rosewood, I thought? I even toyed with the idea of using Corian. Well, as usual I ended up back where I started. I really like the Nahat design that uses a series of 4 birds (storks, or swans) amidst an acanthus-style vine. The design itself is a common Nahat theme, and has been excecuted using wood, bone or a comination of both. I decided to use a dark brown wood, in this case, Pau Ferro, also called Morado, with bone used for the design. I've seen this pattern excecuted with thick lines for the vine, and very very fine lines, as in the case of Tony Klein's Roufan Nahat. Of course, I would have to try the one that used a more refined line. Inlay of this sort can be done in a number of ways. The most common way is to cut the design out, temp glue it to the fingerboard material, scribe the outline, rout the waste area and glue in the inlay. This method demands that the scribing and routing be as close to perfect as possible to reduce the amount of filler where the scribing/routing departed from the inlay. I used this method on all the inlay on this oud so far, but because the inlays have been geometric shapes, the scribing and routing have been relatively easy because of the lack of curved lines. Another method is to tack the inlay material and fingerboard material togtherm and cut both out simultaneously. The inlay will fit perfectly in the cavity, but it will also have a gap around it the same size as the thckness of the blade used to cut it out. On larger inlays this does not pose much of a problem if a thin jeweler's blade is used for the cutting. A third method, and the one that I plan to use involves cutting the inlay and fingerboard simultaneously, with the blade a precise angle, such that when the piece is cut, the inlay fits very precisely into the fingerboard with no gaps at all. The only areas that need to be filled are the entry holes that are drilled in each interior area. The accuracy of the inlay is a given. The only mistake to be made is wandering from the line, and in such a case the inlay will fit no worse, it will simply be slightly (or not, depending on how bad it wandered) different than the original design. This is an old marquetry technique, and I'm convinced, based on some close study of Nahat inlays, that it is a method they used.

Test cuts using the technique...

Jameel - 10-2-2005 at 11:29 AM

The angle is determined by a mathematical formula based on the width of the blade, and the thickness of the materials. Or, by trial and error. That's the method I used since I'm no mathematician

The inlay material is on top, the fingerboard material on bottom. The pattern would be glued to the bone during the actual cutting.

Jameel - 10-2-2005 at 11:30 AM

Since we are cutting away the waste from the inlay, we discard the waste piece of bone, and the push the fingerboard material flush with face of the bone. Because of the angle, the piece is wedge shaped, and stops precisely flush with the inlay.

Jameel - 10-2-2005 at 11:32 AM

Here you can see how precise the fit is. There is no gap because the pieces were cut at the same time.

Jameel - 10-2-2005 at 11:34 AM

Here is another test cut. The angle was too steep, so the materials didn't fit together flush. The fit is still perfect, it's just not fitting in as far as it could.

SamirCanada - 10-2-2005 at 11:38 AM

Thats Great Jameel!!
You could actualy make 2 fingerboards in that way!!

Jameel - 10-2-2005 at 11:47 AM

Actually, no, you can't. But it would be sweet if it did! :shrug:

It works because the larger piece from the fingerboard is fitting into the smaller cavity of the inlay. So the waste bone pieces are much too small to fit in their corresponding areas on the fingerboard. Getting two fingerboards only works if the cut is 90 degress.

SamirCanada - 10-2-2005 at 12:34 PM

Oh I tought it was 90 degrees...Well goes to show how much I know
Keep it up Iam really enjoying this.

Doing the actual inlay

Jameel - 10-3-2005 at 06:26 PM

Here are some pics of the beard inlay, using the aforementioned technique. For some reason, the bone ended up blotchy and translucent, probably because it is only about 1mm thin. I'll try to come up with a solution so it's nice and white. I'll probably make this piece over. This just doesn't look that great as is. But the inlay sure came out nice. No gaps AT ALL. And the only areas to fill are the decorative kerfs and entry holes. This technique rocks!

Jonathan - 10-3-2005 at 07:10 PM

More amazing work, Jameel. I love the scrolling vine-- a really classic look.
I sent you a u2u

Fingerboard

Jameel - 10-11-2005 at 06:38 PM

The beard ended up looking quite nice by the next morning. I think the bone was saturated with some mineral spirits I had wiped on, thus the blotchiness. I had a few people comment to me that this design looked too much like ducks. I agreed, but then I decided to use it anyway. Besides, there are a row of birds that make up each of the small rosettes, and they look ducky too.

I wanted to keep the Nahat theme, and this has been used by the Nahats extensively. I was given the idea of using some gazelles as a design element, and I really like the idea. Maybe I'll try it on the next oud.

SamirCanada - 10-11-2005 at 06:46 PM

Brilliant!! :applause:

Lets get some strings on it! I dont wana rush you actualy but Iam really exited for you. This thread makes my day everytime you update it!
Its on the final strech now!

Jonathan - 10-12-2005 at 05:02 PM

Jameel, you have now made one oud with the mould, and one without. Any thoughts as to the advantages of either approach?

Jameel - 10-12-2005 at 06:35 PM

Jonathan,

Check back on page 3 for some comments between Elie and I about the mould and making ribs.

I think using a mould has a good benefit over mould-less: it prevents making the back too small, or rather, too narrow, since without the mould, the ribs can slowly move in as you reach to front. The mould prevents this. It also gives places to put pins to hold the ribs in place as they cure. It also provides some security if the bowl should get bumped during construction, providing a movement restriction that might prevent a popped joint. It doesn't help in fitting the ribs. As Dr. Oud has shown, it's possible to build free form, but until I have more experience I'll be using a mould.

Jonathan - 10-13-2005 at 12:35 PM

Thanks. One more thing--can you tell me what wood you used for the neck block and tail block. Is that pine? Do you know if there is a certain wood that shows up more often in ouds than others for this? Or, if Arabic ouds tend to use one type of wood, and Turkish ouds another? I have read Dr. Oud's book, where he mentions isomg pine, cedar, spruce, or soft mahogany. I can't imagine that it would affect the sound too much, but I guess the wrong wood could add a lot of unnecessary weight. Does anybody know what would the Nahats tended to use for this? Manol? Karibyan?
Sorry for all these questions, but I am learning a lot from you.

Jameel - 10-13-2005 at 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks. One more thing--can you tell me what wood you used for the neck block and tail block. Is that pine? Do you know if there is a certain wood that shows up more often in ouds than others for this? Or, if Arabic ouds tend to use one type of wood, and Turkish ouds another? I have read Dr. Oud's book, where he mentions isomg pine, cedar, spruce, or soft mahogany. I can't imagine that it would affect the sound too much, but I guess the wrong wood could add a lot of unnecessary weight. Does anybody know what would the Nahats tended to use for this? Manol? Karibyan?
Sorry for all these questions, but I am learning a lot from you.

I use basswood for the blocks. It's a lightweight hardwood (deciduous) that is very stable. It carves and shapes great, and glues very well. It's just about perfect for this application. I think the old makers probably used whatever they had around, probably leftover chunks of spruce or cedar from the soundboard and braces. I don't think the wood choice here has much effect on sound, but using a heavy hardwood like maple or walnut would be overkill.

Dr. Oud - 10-14-2005 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jameel... Does anybody know what would the Nahats tended to use for this? Manol? Karibyan?...

Every oud I've seen the blocks were either pine , cedar or spruce. I have seen some carved out inside, but not by the original makers. i suppose someone thought if you increase the volume inside or make the blocks lighter it would be beneficial in some way, but I don't believe it has any affect other than making the oud weigh less.

Jonathan - 10-14-2005 at 12:11 PM

Is there any problem with just using some Douglas Fir I have lying around?
Also, I notice that you guys don't use the thin purfling strips between the ribs. I know a lot of people don't. Do you think that this would add greatly to the difficulty level?

Jonathan - 10-14-2005 at 12:16 PM

Just made my oud profile this morning based on a 1964 Karibyan, so I may be pestering you guys with some questions.

Jameel - 10-14-2005 at 03:24 PM

Jonathan,

That's great news. I'm looking forward to following your progress. About the purfling strips. I've never done one with the strips, so I can't answer your question about the difficulty. I would imagine the trickiest part would be bending them, but if you can handle bending the ribs (obviously), the purfling strips should't be too hard. You still have to fit the ribs as well as if there were no purfling. I noticed on Dincer's site (pics 8 and 9 or so) that he uses the mould itself to form the purfling bewteen two ribs while heating it with a small iron (you can get these in hobby shops--they're used for applying decals to model airplanes and such. They cost about half than if you bought it from a luthiery shop) I like the look of a back with no purfling. And all the ribs on the back of this oud were cut and assembled sequentially from one thick piece of walnut, so the grain flows seamlessly from rib to rib. It should look quite nice once varnished. About your douglas fir. That's a fine wood, but if it's from some construction lumber, it may not be that dry. Construction lumber is not held to the same dryness requirement as cabinet-grade wood, even though it might be as clear. You'd have to have a moisture meter to know for sure, and the wood could ooze sap perhaps months later. It's best to buy good quality wood from a reputable dealer. You should have no problem finding great wood dealer a few minutes from your area. Believe me, when building a instrument, don't ever fall to the temptation to cut corners or skimp on anything. It's not worth the time.

kasos - 10-14-2005 at 07:18 PM

Good luck, Jonathan, on your new project, and keep us all posted!

Jameel, how wonderful it is to be so near the finished product... all the best on your last mile...

Mark

Jonathan - 10-14-2005 at 09:15 PM

Thanks. Jameel, your point is well taken. No point in screwing up right in the beginning. I think I will skip the purfling between the ribs, too--unnecessary complication.
I picked up a couple of books recently that really got me thinking about making an oud, and neither book was on ouds. The first was called "Clapton's Guitar--Watching Wayne Henderson Build the Perfect Instrument". I am not a Clapton fan, but it really is about this eccentric guitar maker and his dedication to the craft. Reading about him actually reminded me of a couple of oud makers that I admire. It really isn't about the money for the guy, he just wants to build superb instruments. And it takes years to get him to build one for you. It doesn't matter what you might offer to pay him, either--he eithier thinks that you are fit for one of his guitars, or he doesn't. I have given up on the guitar, but I would like to meet the guy someday. The other book is called "Stradivari's Genius"--again, made me appreciate those luthiers that are just so incredibly dedicated to the craft.
I will let you know how things go, but I am guessing that this is going to take about 47 years for me to complete. But, it is going to be very simple in design. Out of necessity. I don't have the skill for anything too complicated.

Finishing......

Jameel - 10-18-2005 at 05:49 PM

Jonathan,

Those books sound great. I'll have to check them out. And good luck with your project. Just take your time, it will be worth it.

_____

I finished up the construction of the oud last week!! :bounce:

I've been varnishing the oud this week, and just finsihed up. I'm using again Tru-Oil, wiped on as per lmii.com's instructions. http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/TruOil.htm I chose not to fill the pores, since I like the more natural look of the walnut, instead of the ultra-level gloss finish that is usually associated with a filled finish. It's really a great method. Simply put, it's a wiped on varnish. Very simple. The most tedious part is meticulously sanding the entire oud from 180 grit up through 600 grit, extremely thoroughly. It took me several hours to do this. But at the end, the oud is so smooth you wouldn't believe it. It actually starts to shine before any finish is applied. And afterwards the oud is as smooth as a baby's, well, you know.

All that's left is the nut, and of course, new strings. I'll be using Aquila's Nylgut Arabic set, tuning CFADGC.

Stay tuned for some special final posts about this project.

Jameel - 10-18-2005 at 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SamirCanada
Brilliant!! :applause:

Lets get some strings on it! I dont wana rush you actualy but Iam really exited for you. This thread makes my day everytime you update it!
Its on the final strech now!

Thanks Samir! Your post made my day! :buttrock:

SamirCanada - 10-18-2005 at 07:41 PM

2005 revelation of the year :bowdown:

you get the MVL ( Most Valuable Luthier award) awarded to the highest scoring Rookie. Hahaha..
In all honesty your work is amazing.
All the best. Health etc...

Greg - 10-18-2005 at 07:49 PM

Alf Mabrouk Jameel.

I doubt that there is a single member of this forum who is not envious of your skills and this beautiful instrument.

Regards,

Greg

sydney - 10-18-2005 at 08:05 PM

What a beautiful peice of art Jameel.

:buttrock:

Peyman - 10-19-2005 at 06:46 AM

That's awsome! :bowdown:

Let's call DIY network and have them make an oud special with Jameel. You have the experience too with those excellent videos you posted! :xtreme:

Congratulations

Jameel - 10-19-2005 at 03:29 PM

Thanks everybody. Stay tuned....

revaldo29 - 10-25-2005 at 04:36 AM

Jameel,

You're killing me. When can we hear it?

Jameel - 10-25-2005 at 04:44 AM

Be patient, young Jedi. All in good time.......

Seriously, I'm working on a nice presentation for the "final" post. It will be worth the wait. There may even be a glimpse of a very famous oudist playing the oud, but no promises yet...

Dr. Oud - 10-25-2005 at 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SamirCanada
2005 revelation of the year :bowdown:

you get the MVL ( Most Valuable Luthier award) awarded to the highest scoring Rookie. ...

With all due and considerable respect, Jameel is no rookie. He is a professional woodworker of the highest caliber with years of training and experience. In addition he is a gifted artist. and I wish he would share some of his art with the forum. When Jameel brings his skill and creativity together in making his ouds, the results are absolutely phenomenal from many aspects. His fabrication precision is unparalleled and equaled only by the very best luthiers. His design is stunning due to his artistic talent, which is considerable. I am envious of his accomplishments myself, and in such a short time it seems. I am also very proud of Jameel for taking the time from his other obligations to produce what I consider a milestone instrument, combining the best of modern fabrication with the ageless design of the masters of the Nahat family to produce a new standard for all oud makers to aspire to. Live long and prosper, my brother.

Dr. Oud - 10-25-2005 at 09:34 AM

Samir,
I wasn't offended by your comment, please don't be offended by mine. I just wanted to clarify to those people who have little or no woodworking experience how skilled Jameel was before he started. It may be intimidating for a beginner to see such magnificent work with only 2 ouds to his credit. I want to encourage anyone with the interest and will (and determination) to try their hand. The experience is so rewarding, even if the result is crude and clumsy - I know my first ouds were. But they're like children, I love them no matter how ugly they are.

Jameel - 10-25-2005 at 09:49 AM

Samir,

You've never said anything offensive to me. I consider your comments a great compliment. Despite Richards gushing comments, which I'm flattered by, I am really a rookie when it comes to the SOUND of the oud. With only 4 soundboards under my belt, I'm all rookie in that sense. Before I started building ouds I had several years of fine woodworking and carving. Any accomplished furniture maker could make a beautiful oud, it's just woodworking after all, but to add the special touches and elements which make for a great sounding instrument takes years of experience. I'm just getting going in that respect. So for now, if this ouds sounds nice, it's mostly from copying other's knowledge, and a good amount of luck, too. Look for a special post here within a week.

SamirCanada - 10-25-2005 at 10:56 AM

Doc O, I get your point of view and if you check now its like nothing ever hapened

Thank you Jameel for your clarification. Iam looking forward like many to see this special post.
Respect
samir

TruePharaoh21 - 10-26-2005 at 11:19 AM

Jameel,

I'm eagerly awaiting the revelation of this new oud. It's almost like there's a curtain in front of it, and we're all at a party waiting for it to come up. While my opinion may count for very little compared to the other oud makers who have already offered you their praise, I want to tell you that this oud looks like a work of art. Truly, incredibly beautiful. Such detail and precision... you're amazing. If the sound is as good as the looks... then my God, I hope that someone in Southern California buys it and allows me to come over and fiddle around with it. Or better yet... how about you come down to So.Cali. for a while so we here can meet the oud maker as well! Haha... it could be the start of an oud tour.

God be with you, my friend. Patience is a virtue that you certainly possess.

TP21

Elie Riachi - 10-26-2005 at 12:46 PM

Okay Jameel,

Every time I look at the art work in this oud, I see something never seen before. Therefore I bestow upon you the title of M.C. Escher ( http://www.mcescher.com/ ) of the oud inlay art.

Like everyone else here I am waiting to hear the voice of this oud. I would like to say that if my hearing is accurate, I think the first oud you built sounded a lot like the Na7at oud in the sound clip that one of the members on this forum posted of thier Na7at oud after they purchased it on e-bay.

So here you have it, form and function.

Regards,
Elie

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 07:34 AM

I am the one with both of those ouds, so I guess I should comment. They both sound very different. Jameel's oud has a much brighter tone, some of which I attribute to its newness. It has a lot of volume--more than the Nahat. If anything, with its size and tone, I think I would compare it most to a Turkish oud, rather than an Arabic oud.
The most noticeable thing about Jameel's first oud is that it is lightweight, which is just great. And yet, you get the feeling that it is very very durable.

Elie Riachi - 10-27-2005 at 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
I am the one with both of those ouds, so I guess I should comment. They both sound very different. Jameel's oud has a much brighter tone, some of which I attribute to its newness. It has a lot of volume--more than the Nahat. If anything, with its size and tone, I think I would compare it most to a Turkish oud, rather than an Arabic oud.
The most noticeable thing about Jameel's first oud is that it is lightweight, which is just great. And yet, you get the feeling that it is very very durable.

Thank you Jonathan for the clarification, I guess recorded sound can be misleading to my ears, for some reason I thought they sounded similar. This kind of dashes my hopes of copying the Na7at sound by just copying dimensions. Sorry about the confusion.

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 06:15 PM

Elie, I can't tell squat by listening to recorded sound on a computer, either. I would like to blame the computer, but I know it is my ears.

palestine48 - 10-27-2005 at 07:11 PM

Hey Jonathon have you ever had that nahat inspected or appraised?

Jonathan - 10-27-2005 at 08:09 PM

I don't want to sidetrack this thread, so this will be the last post on this one.
I have had a couple of people look at it that are familiar with Nahats, and they think it is legit. Never had it appraised. I am taking it to another guy in another couple of weeks or so (he is doing an oud repair for me) who has had some experience with Nahats--I am interested in his opinion. And, one day, I would love to get Doc Os opinion on this thing.

A shame that we don't really have that sort of authentication process that exists for, say, violins, where you can go to an expert and he will give you a document that states whether the instrument is authentic or not. At least, if we do have that, I am not aware of it.

I had a couple of folks offer to buy it, but I don't really want to sell it.

A couple things have been pointed out to me regarding the body shape of Nahats that I was not familiar with, but all hold true on the oud that I have. One interesting thing is that, when looking at a Nahat in profile, the bowl will almost always tend to curve in where it joins the top. A subtle thing, but I thought it was interesting.
When I have the next guy look at it, I will see if he can post some comments on this board. Authentic or not, it could be a learning experience for all of us.
Now, back to Jameel's oud.

Dr. Oud - 10-28-2005 at 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
I don't want to sidetrack this thread, ....One interesting thing is that, when looking at a Nahat in profile, the bowl will almost always tend to curve in where it joins the top....

Now I'm sidetracking! Shame on me! The "tumble over" or 190 degree body is found on some Nahats, notably from Roufan, but not all of them. Some of the Nahats I have seen have a hemishperical back. Fadel Hussein also used the tumble over design, but only at the tail end, (at least on Ronny's 1956).

Mike - 10-30-2005 at 06:39 AM

Incredible job Jameelo with the fingerboard. The birds look absolutely beautiful....much like elegant swans. Can't wait to see more fabulous and detailed pictures and/or videos! :-)

THE FINISHED OUD

Jameel - 10-30-2005 at 02:26 PM

Thanks, Mike! I've been waiting for you to return to post the final update to this topic. I'm glad you are back safely.
________

First I'd like to thank Mike for the forum and the oppurtunity to post this project here.

Secondly I'd like to thank everyone who bothered to take the time to respond and offer encouragement and support.

So here are some pictures of the finished instrument.

If you would like to see more photos take a look here:Khalaf Oud 2005

I don't have any good sound files recorded yet, but in the next post is a little video I made of the oud, with a couple clips at the end where you can get an idea of the sound. This one sounds much better than any one I've made so far, so I'm particularly pleased given the visual appearance of the oud.

VIDEO

Jameel - 10-30-2005 at 02:42 PM

Click the link to see the video:

Khalaf Oud Luthiery - October 2005 Oud

Make sure your speakers/headphones are turned on.

shlomi - 10-30-2005 at 02:42 PM

:applause:

amazing work jameel!!!
i havent written any comment until now but i check youre page daily
im realy curious to hear this beutifull oud :applause:

Jonathan - 10-30-2005 at 03:14 PM

Jameel! Fantastic job, my friend. The oud looks, and sounds, incredible. You are a true artist, and you encourage us all with your talent. The video was superb, as well. Mabrouk!

hamed - 10-30-2005 at 03:21 PM

perhaps this will end up in a museum someday, very nice work.
sincerely
hamed

SamirCanada - 10-30-2005 at 05:13 PM

WOW.. Finaly we have some closure and what A show it was. Simon was playing this oud as if he was born with it in his hands. Congradulations on a perfect project with a perfect ending. The level of professionalism on display was of the highest I feel privileged to have followed your project and eventualy I hope to see another one eventho you plan on doing other things. I dont know if you have in mind selling this oud but you should definetly hang on to it and enjoy it for a little while. Did you ever think of taking orders from clients to build oud?
All the best
Samir

Mike - 10-30-2005 at 05:39 PM

What can we say Jameelo? A truly incredible job my man. There really aren't any words to describe how I'm feeling right now. I just watched the entire video presentation, and for Simon to want to play your oud in concert says it all. Your videography skills are almost as great as your oudmaking skills my friend. I couldn't look away from my computer screen during the whole thing. Jameelo I've told you this before....but truly

YOU ARE THE MAN! :bowdown:

Your friend,
Mike

Elie Riachi - 10-30-2005 at 06:50 PM

What a grand finale Jameel!
I will have to watch the video again but with tabouli and kase 3raa2 this time. Kasak Jameel.

Incredible

spyrosc - 10-30-2005 at 07:08 PM

What can I say !

My only thoughts are to thank God that He creates people like Jameel and gives such skills to them to make humanity worth something !

Praise God ! Il Hamdu lillah ! la hawla wala quwwata 'illa bi llah.

Jameel you are one special human being !

Your friend
Spyros C.

mavrothis - 10-30-2005 at 08:07 PM

OUTSTANDING JAMEEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOD BLESS YOUR HANDS!!!!! What a beautiful surprise to see Simon Shaheen performing on your beautiful oud. Wonderful work Jameel. It was really sweet of you to include us in your video too, thanks so much for making us a part of your beautiful work!

Sidi - 10-30-2005 at 10:30 PM

Alf Alf mabrouk Jameel :applause:

I can't begin to tell you how happy I am for you. You deserve every last bit of credit for your passion and your infinite dedication towards our beloved instrument. I won't even go into your outstanding craftsmanship...the pictures say it all really. Thanks to folks like you the Oud is alive and well for years to come in Sha2 Allah.

Keep 'em coming,

-Sidi :wavey:

oudmaker - 10-31-2005 at 04:03 AM

Jameel
Exellent work. You are very talented craftsman. Keep it up.
Dincer

Congratulations Jameel

sydney - 10-31-2005 at 04:21 AM

I could not find enough words to congratulate you with.

Every step in making this oud deserves a very special thanks to you for you have taken the time to share it with us.

You are for sure a talented person and blessed with lots of grace.

I can not help calling you "Nahat of 2005" and this is the least you deserve.

Congratulations Jameel.

Thank you for sharing all this with us.

David Parfitt - 10-31-2005 at 04:31 AM

Jameel

Just finished watching the video - absolutely incredible!!! It has been such a privilege to watch such a true craftsman at work. Look forward to following the progress of your future projects too.

All the best

David

Awesome!

LeeVaris - 10-31-2005 at 07:31 AM

I am speechless... what a finale !!!

Jameel, your craftsmanship is inspiring and the video... what can one say? Great stuff - can't wait to see the next creation! :applause:

Faladel - 10-31-2005 at 08:35 AM

Alf Mabrouk Jameel .... its very very nice and absolutely incredible.
:applause:

ofadel - 10-31-2005 at 09:08 AM

Mabrouk Mabrouk!! Your work is absolutely incredible!!!! And what an unveiling. I can't wait to see the next one!

omar

Andy - 10-31-2005 at 09:59 AM

Jameel,
I have been watching in silence but now have to break the silence. I hope that there is a 3rd, 4th 5th and many more beautiful ouds made by your hand and you will go down in oud history as one of the masters in our period of time.
With all my best wishes,
Andy
http://www.geocities.com/antronig/oud.html

Dr. Oud - 10-31-2005 at 12:07 PM

Congratulations for a momentous accomplishment. Your oud is as fine as any I've ever seen. I'm very proud of your development into one of the finest luthiers today. The video is very beautifully done and Simon looks like he really enjoying playing. Live long and prosper, my friend.

thanks

chaldo - 11-1-2005 at 08:43 PM

real nice!!.. wish I 2have one like that one day... :airguitar:

)ALF MABROUK....

)

btw... your video is incredible... khississan on the big projector, with great sound... om kalsoum, sabah.f..........

g r e a t and thanks

palestine48 - 11-1-2005 at 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elie Riachi
What a grand finale Jameel!
I will have to watch the video again but with tabouli and kase 3raa2 this time. Kasak Jameel.

And Knafe! Ellie you forgot the Knafe. You cant finish a good meal without a hot slice of Knafe.

Jameel, remarkable job. I think this is one of the most beautiful ouds I have ever seen and the sound blew me away. What did you think of the sound, did it exceed your expectations?

Jameel - 11-2-2005 at 06:19 AM

Thanks, everybody. I had fun making that video. I'm really glad that it turned out sounding nice. But there's one thing I don't like about the oud. When I play it, it just doesn't have the same sound as when Simon plays it.

Jameel - 11-2-2005 at 06:22 AM

To answer your question Samir, I won't be taking orders. I'm not in the position to right now. When I make another, and it ends up sounding good, then selling would be an option. But until I master good sound production, I couldn't take orders.

SamirCanada - 11-2-2005 at 07:11 AM

Yah thats a good awnser Jameelo.
Also I wanted to know what simon tought of the oud. Did you ask him for his honest opinion? was he blown away... I know I would be.
Thanks Jameel

Jameel - 11-2-2005 at 01:08 PM

I love the sound of the oud. Ask me again in a year. It way exceeded my expectations, so I'm really thrilled with it. Samir, regarding whether Simon liked the sound of the oud or not, I think the fact that he would play a week-old oud from a beginning oud maker live in concert pretty-much says it all. I'm still amazed by it. I almost wanted to give it to him!

Elie Riachi - 11-2-2005 at 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by palestine48

Quote:

Originally posted by Elie Riachi
What a grand finale Jameel!
I will have to watch the video again but with tabouli and kase 3raa2 this time. Kasak Jameel.

And Knafe! Ellie you forgot the Knafe. You cant finish a good meal without a hot slice of Knafe.

Jameel, remarkable job. I think this is one of the most beautiful ouds I have ever seen and the sound blew me away. What did you think of the sound, did it exceed your expectations?

Not to sidetrack, but Kenafeh must be one of my favorite foods. I just made some a couple of weeks ago. Yumm yumm!

Brian Prunka - 11-2-2005 at 03:57 PM

Jameel, congratulations, man. The oud sounds excellent now, what'll it sound like in ten years? It looks amazing, some of the best workmanship i've seen on an arabic oud; certainly by any living maker.
And for Simon to play it in concert? That's the biggest compliment i can imagine. He has his pick of great ouds to play . . . there's no way he would perform on an instrument not up to his (incredibly high) standards.

Brian

Peyman - 11-2-2005 at 06:14 PM

Congratulations Jameel on completing the second oud :bowdown:

. That was a neat video too. This whole thread was very a delight to follow. I learned a lot. I hope you make more ouds and maybe other instruments. What I really liked was how the fingerboard came out. That's an excellent lesson in marquetry.
Peyman

Jameel - 11-2-2005 at 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Prunka
Jameel, congratulations, man. The oud sounds excellent now, what'll it sound like in ten years? It looks amazing, some of the best workmanship i've seen on an arabic oud; certainly by any living maker.
And for Simon to play it in concert? That's the biggest compliment i can imagine. He has his pick of great ouds to play . . . there's no way he would perform on an instrument not up to his (incredibly high) standards.

Brian

Exactly, Brian. Everyone is asking me how it sounds, what Simon thought of it, etc. He played it in concert. If that doesn't answer the question, I don't know what does. I think the quality of it comes out even through these low-quality videos. I'll be laying down some tracks (always wanted to say that! :cool:

) soon with some better mics so you guys can hear the sound better. Now, it won't be Simon playing so it won't have the same sound (obviously) but hopefully something nice will happen. He really made this oud sing.

mysticoud - 11-3-2005 at 02:03 AM

I had to come out of the lurker cave on this one. Jameel, you are an inspiration to us all, truly. This whole project was a work of artistic magnificence. And to have one of the world's greatest oud virtuosos perform with your creation....That just shows your skill. Keep up the good work.

Enjoyed the video as well, excellent work.

Elias - 11-3-2005 at 02:50 AM

Mabrouk Jameel!
Your oud is a real work of Art, and it sounds very very good...i think that in a few months it will be great! The work you did on it id so precise and accurate... it's incredible detailed...a lot of compliments also for the video that i enjoyed so much...
salamat
elias

Multi Kulti - 11-3-2005 at 10:53 AM

Jameel there is no word to say how much i love your oud and especially his sound.Perfect projection ,loud...

Bravo bravo and we are waiting for your next project...maybe something turkish?? A Manol copy ??

Nikos

Wm. De Leonardis - 11-3-2005 at 12:17 PM

Jameel,

I just wanted to chime in, too. I've watched your progress on the oud since its inception. It always made my day to see an update. I thought the pay-off was seeing the finished product. Then, I watched the video. Absolutely incredible!!! You're a man of many talents. I look forward to your next project, whenever that will be.

Bravo!

William

Mike - 11-3-2005 at 01:14 PM

I personally apologize to Jameel for some of the latest posts in this thread. Sorry it took me this long to delete and modify it.

Jameel - 11-3-2005 at 08:00 PM

Thanks again everyone. You are the ones who made it happen. Thanks again, Mike.

Elie Riachi - 11-3-2005 at 08:42 PM

Jameel,
You are welcome friend and thank you for sharing. I personally enjoyed every bit of this thread and always looked forward to an update.

I am just wondering, I never seen or read much about the bracing on this oud so I assumed that you followed Doc's Na7at plans, until you indicated in a different thread that you parted from Doc's book for the bracing on this oud. I must say that it was very brave of you to take such a risk on such a beautifully made instrument. So I am assuming that you somehow weren't totally in the dark on the bracing of this soundboard.

Can you share some insight with me regarding your new approach on the bracing or will you have to kill me if you did

Jameel - 11-5-2005 at 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elie Riachi

Can you share some insight with me regarding your new approach on the bracing or will you have to kill me if you did

I spread the braces about the bridge a bit more than Richard's book, and relieved some of them a different way. (concave instead of convex) I didn't write it down, and I forgot to take pics, so I guess the next one will be a departure, too!

Another video

Jameel - 11-5-2005 at 11:05 AM

I took some video with some good mics of the new oud. If you don't think technique plays much of a role in the sound of an oud, just listen back to Simon's playing then compare. Whoa! And that was with the camcorder mic only.

Khalaf Oud 2005 Video

SamirCanada - 11-5-2005 at 12:10 PM

Whoa Jameel.
you kept feeding us all this time.. Iam stuffed !!
But I still crave some more

there's always room for this.
Congradulations once more on your accomplishement.
Speaking of braces I would like to know exactly what makes the basse strings sound deeper and have a longer sustain? Because for my own rebraced oud it turned out sounding really clear and high for the trebles but the bass strings sound a little dead... I know I havent been using quality wood so of course its a factor but I would like your point of view for that. Also Do you know of any ouds that have a non uniform face? as in thiner in some parts? I tought makers could also play with that aspect. Cheers.

Elie Riachi - 11-5-2005 at 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jameel
I spread the braces about the bridge a bit more than Richard's book, and relieved some of them a different way. (concave instead of convex) I didn't write it down, and I forgot to take pics, so I guess the next one will be a departure, too!

I am assuming by spreading the braces farther you got more bass and concave made it louder? What do you think?

revaldo29 - 11-5-2005 at 05:44 PM

Yaa Allaaaaaaaah,
sounds sooo sooo warm. Jameel you have made my week. Allah yehdee eedayk.

Jameel - 11-15-2005 at 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SamirCanada
Whoa Jameel.
you kept feeding us all this time.. Iam stuffed !!
But I still crave some more

From what I've learned from Doc O ,Nahat braces are uniform, but the soundboard is thinner on the bass side/edges. Turkish ouds have asymetrical bracing but consistent faces. I made the soundboard on this one a bit thinner on the bass side, and the braces symmetrical. It's obvious that one can make a good sounding instrument using different methods.

Pages: 1 2 3 4