Mike's Oud Forums

My first oud

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Jonathan - 1-20-2006 at 11:06 PM

Hank, that is great!!! I can't thank you enough!

Good for you!

carpenter - 2-12-2006 at 11:24 AM

I'm finally getting around to reading all these forum pages - great stuff! And I'm proud of you (or anybody) who sails into the unknown; it's fun, isn't it? Keep up the good work! Be all you can be!

I was reading about your lacewood bending woes. I've looked at it, but never used it for anything; my taste runs to the "really-plain-figure-if-any" end of the spectrum, the home of more half-baked acoustical theory. I've worked plenty with curly/flamed maple, though, and noticed some things.

(Caution: Opinion/Observation Ahead:)

It appears to me, and this is probably covered much more expertly elsewhere, that the curliness comes from the grain "accordioning," I guess would be a good image, so if you cut along the grain and peek across, it looks like waves. (I've split out some curly maple pretty thin, just to see, and it looks like a nice piece of cooked bacon.) The grain's going to approach 45 or even vertical where the waves are, and the thinner the piece - well, for one, it's a booger to plane, all that rising grain; and two, through the thickness, there's not a lot of longitudinal grain continuity. Lots of short grain, just where you'd split it if it were stovewood. If it were waves, we'd talk about frequency and amplitude, I suppose, but the more extreme the figure, the less continuity/integrity through the length.

I've seen lots of violin ribs, where the middle bouts are, or the Cs, that are split out on the inside of the fiddle - the outside diameter of the bend, I guess - and those bends are about the diameter of your thumb. Tough work. But they break out at where the curl meets the surface. (Inattention or physical properties?...hmmm.) It looks like the lacewood figure is more like a ball-peen hammer pattern than a straight-across curl; I'm not surprised that it tore out, but that's just me. The edge of that unfortunate break in the top rib looks pretty ugly; easily patch-able, but look at the grain with a loupe first. (You can always back up the bends with a really thin piece of steel, too. It seemed to help when I tried it, but I didn't have a control group; called it Progress regardless. Think it was load banding I used; good steel, free, made a couple of tiny scrapers out of it, too.)

(End of Opinion/Observation. Open to correction, as always.)

It's sure a pretty start for you, though. "Thin is good," and, "head for the hide glue." And keep pumpin' the oud-building gas!

oudmaker - 2-12-2006 at 12:01 PM

Carpenter
You are correct. When you bend a rib, regardless of the thickness both faces of the wood receive a stress. Concave side face is subject to compresion and the other face is subject to tension stresses. Wood like all materials which subject to pressure shorthens and subjected to tension elongates.To a different degree of course. Heat weakens the bond of the fibres of the wood makes them possible to move against each other.
When you bend a side of violin C bout the ends which have sharp curvature tends to split due to more surface tension. We usualy use some times a flexible sheet of metal or even piece of cloth at the tension side of the bent. This is not necessary for oud ribs. But if you have real difficulty because of the thicker ribs you may use it and wont get splits.
If you have good amount of heat the split stops at the centerline of the thickness ; from centerline to the concave face, the rib is subjected to compression.
Regards

Jonathan - 2-12-2006 at 07:22 PM

Thanks, Carpenter. You guys know a lot more about wood than I do, but I will tell you that the maple was not as difficult as I thought it would be. I do like figured woods, but I reached a bit beyond my grasp with these woods. That part of the oud is done, now, at least. I have only seen a few ouds made out of flame maple up close--two by Merjanian, and Kyvelos' own oud. The effect of the wood on all of those is amazing, and so I guess I have been a bit stuck on it. The wood just has so much depth.
And, I have seen a couple of ouds made of lacewood (both Kyvelos), so the wood can be used for ouds. Just tough.
This is a sidetrack, I know, but here is the Merjan:

Jonathan - 2-12-2006 at 07:28 PM

So, pretty amazing when done skillfully.
Which makes mine all the more depressng!
Anyhow, the patch.
You have read my nightmare with the airlines, and the broken wood.
I decided to make a patch. Unfortunately, I was not at all happy with any of the patches that I made because the wood is so highly figured, that all of the patches were pretty obvious. So I figured I would go ahead and make it even more obvious, and patch it with maple.
Don't laugh. I know, I know. Just bear me with me on this, guys.
I am going to inlay something in there--a date, or something. Don't know yet.
Making my first batch of hide glue now. Going to try to glue the two pieces of spruce for the face together.

revaldo29 - 2-13-2006 at 05:20 PM

Hey Jonathan,

Not a bad Idea, sign your name on the patch. Maybe it can become a small tradition and when people buy your ouds someday, they will ask, I wounder why he signs his work that way?

carpenter - 2-13-2006 at 05:35 PM

Nice patch! Like the programmers say, "It's not a bug - it's a feature!"

Jonathan - 2-14-2006 at 07:07 AM

I thought just the guys working in restaurants said that.

paulO - 2-14-2006 at 11:13 AM

In restaurants: "It's not a bug -- it's desert !"

Jonathan - 2-18-2006 at 02:43 PM

I just started working on the braces this AM. I decided to pretty much follow the layout that I had on the diagram I posted earlier. Nothing is finished on them yet, but here is where they are going to approximately be located (of course there will be the two small ones next to the large rose.

Gabriel - 2-18-2006 at 08:41 PM

:applause::applause:
the patch looks very good
i would never guess that it was dropped

nice work:)

Braces

Hank Levin - 2-19-2006 at 05:00 PM

Those look like some heavy braces, my friend. How do they compare, do you suppose, with the photo I sent?

Love,
Hank Levin
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
I just started working on the braces this AM. I decided to pretty much follow the layout that I had on the diagram I posted earlier. Nothing is finished on them yet, but here is where they are going to approximately be located (of course there will be the two small ones next to the large rose.

Jonathan - 2-19-2006 at 06:04 PM

They're not, though. They are only about 6 mm wide. Some depth I have to take off of them, particularly the third one up, which seems very, very shallow on the photo you sent me. When I have the face done, I will lay them on there and show you, and get some opinions before I glue them in place.

Andy - 2-19-2006 at 06:48 PM

It's looking real good.

Hank Levin - 2-20-2006 at 12:13 AM

Jonathan,

Very good. Indeed, the 3rd from the bottom is in fact rather square in section, about 5.5 x 5.5 mm. They ALL taper to about that dimension at the ends.

By the way, how do you like the gluepot?

--Hank

Jonathan - 2-20-2006 at 07:58 AM

I like the gluepot. It makes things easier. Yeah, you can do the job without it, but it just simplifies things. Well worth buying.
Here's a pic of how the face spruce came. Two pieces. You would think it would be easy to join them. . .

Dr. Oud - 2-21-2006 at 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by carpenter....(You can always back up the bends with a really thin piece of steel, too. ...

Violin makers use a sheet steel backing when bending the sides. It has stops at each end of the workpiece and the sides are bent dry over a heated form.

Jonathan - 3-4-2006 at 05:43 PM

The face is now joined, and the three holes have been made.

Jonathan - 3-4-2006 at 05:50 PM

I have decided to use tiled-edge purfling around the three rosettes.
I will admit that I am partial to the simple purfling, rather than the tiled-edge. But, a couple of things made me reconsider. First, as I mentioned earlier, the body of the oud is a bit wider than a typical Turkish-style oud. I think the wider body actually might look better with the tiled-edge purfling.
Second, and truthfully the deciding factor, is that I messed up a bit when making the channels for the purfling. The holes themselves are fine, but there are some stray cuts outside of them. This can all be covered up if I use the tiled-edge approach.
Nothing too wide. I don't want it to look really busy.
So, I was trying to come up with a way to do this easily. I reviewed Jameel's website a million times. I just don't know if I can pull that off. My skill level is about 1/100th of that.
So, what I did was find a circular template the size of the outside edge of the purfling that I wanted. For the large rose, it was actually a discarded dvd. For, the small roses, a package of teflon tape.
Onto those templates I glued on some of the purfling (I made some with leftover strips of lacewood, maple, mahogany, and wenge).

The final purfling is going to be very, very narrow. I know it looks a bit strange now, but imaging that inner boarder cut very close to the outer boarder. The odd angles won't be all that noticable when it is made narrow.

Jonathan - 3-4-2006 at 05:56 PM

Then, I sanded down the outer periphery to match the template. I wasn't too concerned with the inner edge--I figured I would use a scroll saw at the end.
I probably won't actually use this piece--this is an experiment.
My goal is to now use a scroll saw to cut the inner edge, and then pry it off of the template.
Then, use the pufling as a guide to scribe the exact area on the face that it is going to go (this particular one would be for one of the small eyuns.)
Of course, the whole thing could fall apart on me, I suppose.
Any thoughts? Bad idea?

Dr. Oud - 3-6-2006 at 08:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan....My goal is to now use a scroll saw to cut the inner edge, and then pry it off of the template....

Using a saw to cut narrow bands of laminated wood will be tricky at best. Even if the pieces are glued to a backing for support, the saw blade could tear the edge and/or pull the glue joints apart. You might try a hole cutter or knife with a hole template. The cutter will also make it easier to match the tile outline on the face.

oudipoet - 3-12-2006 at 04:49 PM

do u have new pict jonathan? how is your oud going on?

Elias - 3-12-2006 at 04:58 PM

Wow Jonathan!
you are making such great progress on the Oud!it's a lot of time that i didn't check it, but it is coming up very very nicely!
:applause:
Best wishes for the oud....
:airguitar:
Elias

Jonathan - 3-14-2006 at 07:07 AM

Thanks, guys. I have slowed down a lot on this one. I am still not sure if I am happy with the angle of the neck, and I might re-set it once again.
DocO was right on the inlays--the scroll saw tore them up. Back to the drawing board.
I have been doing a lot of experimenting with rib bending, without any luck. I know the ribs are done on this one, but I am just thinking ahead. I have made about a million moulds, and done some research, but I guess I haven't found anything better than the method that I used on this one. I guess I was hoping to find some way to make a series of moulds, of gradually increasing angles, that could make the ribs consistent, uniform, and reliable. So far, no luck.
So, I better get back to this oud.

carpenter - 3-14-2006 at 07:38 AM

It's not how many times a guy gets knocked down, it's how many times he gets back up that counts. Hang in there, Champ; you're doing well.

Nobody ever learned anything doing it right the first time...I figure consistent, uniform, and reliable are Platonic ideals, like square, plumb, and level in remodeling. Hah! But they're something to shoot for, all the same. One man's opinion.

(Thus ends Philosopher's Corner for today.)

Peyman - 3-14-2006 at 06:46 PM

Hi Jonathan,
I don't know if this is of any help. There is a method that I am using to build a kamancheh and a setar which have ribs. It's a bridge-mold method. You draw a series of "polygons" and put them on fiber board, that represent the inside graduation of the instrument. They make it easy to see where your ribs go. I learned it from a setar building book and also a brief description apears in GAL volume 1.
Check out the picture (no this isn't a torture device). The fiber boards are hard to see. You fill around them with whatever wood you got and use hooks and rubber bands and the wedges to hold down the rib. You start placing ribs from the sides. For the last rib, you take a piece of paper and measure the place where it should go and make it fit.
I am not sure if this method would work for an oud. This setar soundbox is 27 cm. I was thinking about making a small oud with this method.
Hope this helps.
Peyman

Jonathan - 3-14-2006 at 08:22 PM

It does help. I hate to get sidetracked on this thread, but this has been occupying a lot of my time over this past month.
I like that device. My problem is knowing how much pressure to put on the rib. I am assuming that you put the rib in there wet? It seems that they tend to crack as they dry.
My father told me that, when his father made ouds and lutes, he soaked the ribs over night, and apparently pressed them in steel moulds (perhaps a series of them), and then literally cooked them in the oven. I have seen his ouds from the 20's and 30's, and they have all held up really very very well. The idea is appealing to me. So, I did make a series of moulds, but I have really wasted a lot of good wood. As the ribs dry, they crack on me. I guess I am trying to bend too quickly. Still working on it. I picked up a couple of books on wood bending, but no new ideas.
Thanks a lot for the picture. It seems like it would be applicable to an oud.

Peyman - 3-15-2006 at 05:52 AM

This mold isn't for bending. It's a guide for making sure all the ribs are the same size and have the right bevel, even though you could hold the ribs in shape with a series of them.
I have had the same problems as you do with bending. What I noticed was that the ribs that were inconsistant in thickness cracked. So I got a wagner safety planer for my drill press. After planing I use a scraper and a 60 grit abrasive paper to make them flat on both sides. It's worth spending the time here. Also the thickness has to be around 3 mm or so.
I tried to bend them dry but no luck. I don't know how Dincer and Jameel do it. So I soaked them over night. The walnut bends like cardboard with some heat. I use a pipe with a heat gun. There is also another way of doing it which is what they used in the old days and that's to soak for several days, then with clamps they simply bend them over a form, letting them dry for a while which is similar to your grandfather's method. But they didn't put them in an oven.
If you need more info on the mold let me know. I can send you more pictures of the molds and the bending forms.

Hank Levin - 3-15-2006 at 09:02 AM

I'm having a LOT of trouble understanding the difficulty you guys are having bending ribs. First of all, in my experience (which includes about 3000 dulcimers, each with 4 bends per side) as well as ouds and lutes, I found that soaking the would caused any wood with cross-grain (which includes all figured wood) to disintegrate when bent.

Second, I previously posted a system for bending ribs dry, with just a "brush" of H2O on the outside of the bend immediately prior to bending, a light touch to the hot iron of the outer surface (to vaporize the H2O you just brushed on), then flipping the rib over and bending it. Most can be bent rather sharply, and those that have a tendency to splinter can be coaxed around the iron by putting pressure with a wooden block immediately over the "weak" spot. You should thus be able to bend even a rib that has a knot or other weakness in it, though you will normally try to avoid these when cutting the ribs.

Taking the bent rib and rubbing it against sandpaper that's been spray-glued to a flat table top (or board) will give it a fine anged surface to connect with its adjacent rib.

How much pressure to use in gluing? Only enough to make firm contact---which is really very little. You can use patches of newspaper dipped in thin hide glue and pasted along the joint in critical places (it will pull the joints really tight---you scrape it off later), or just masking tape will work too.

This system also works with three strips of purfling between each rib, Karibyan style.

What am I missing here?

Fondly,
Hank Levin

Peyman - 3-15-2006 at 09:18 AM

Thanks Hank. I think my problem is inexperience. I'll give your method a try tonight. I haven't had any disintegration with my method.

Jameel - 3-15-2006 at 10:22 AM

Ditto what Hank said. Before I made my first oud, I never bent a piece of wood in my life. I think you guys are not letting the wood get hot enough. My bending iron is hot enough that when I sprinkle some water on it, it literally bounces off. It should be VERY hot. Notice some of these pics and videos from the middle east of luthiers bending ribs freehand over an open flame. The wood is getting HOT. No water is really needed. Make sure your ribs are not too thick (mine are 2.5mm or so). And let the wood tell you when it wants to bend. When it gets hot enough it will bend readily without cracking. Ideally, ribs should fit against the previous rib with no pressure, just enough to hold the rib in place. You don't want to build tension into the bowl.

Hank, I was under the impression that clamping hide glued joints after the jell stage is pointless, since the glue can't squeeze out and pull the joint together further. If glue-soaked newspaper pieces draw the joint together only as they cool, jell, and cure, isn't that too late to draw the joint itself tighter?

Jonathan - 3-15-2006 at 10:49 AM

It is just that, if it were possible to form a mould, that the wood blanks could be inserted into, that was gradually tightened over, say the course of a month or two, such that each rib was uniform and created essentially without labor, I would love to find it. Or design it. Or build it. You get the idea.
Probably impossible.
As always, thanks for the input.

Hank Levin - 3-15-2006 at 11:04 AM

Jameel,

Whoops, you're right about that! (I've actually only used mechanical pressure along with tape. See Robert Cooper's book on lute making.) What was done traditionally is to place the glued paper patch and immediately force-dry it with a hot iron held above it. (That would be an old-style heavy soldering iron heated in a small furnace. We use to use them in high school metal shop---really clumsey things, but great for force-drying glue.) The technique is described in Musik's Monument by Thomas Mace, an incredible book that may be available in facsimile issue. It has lots of stuff about lute repair and playing. I don't remember the date on it, but it was written just before the lute disappeared from the scene in Europe.

Hank

Peyman - 3-15-2006 at 03:37 PM

Thanks Jameel and Hank. That method worked! 2.5 mm thickness is the best. I held the spot to be bent with my left hand over the pipe and once I felt the heat coming through, I moved the rib about 1/2". Once again when the heat came through, with right hand I pushed down a bit, and the rib started to bend like a copper wire. It was easy. My mistake was not being patient. Also I didn't hold the rib at the ends because that leads to cracks.

Hank Levin - 3-15-2006 at 04:52 PM

BTW, if anyone's interested, abebooks.com has facimile copies of Mace's book starting at $50…and going WAY up.

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=440475934&...

Hank

Jameel - 3-16-2006 at 11:14 AM

Hank,

Interesting info, thanks. I've used the hot iron technique to quick dry hide glue, but never on the bowl. I also used an iron from the hobby shop designed for affixing labels. Works great and they are only about $25. The same item from a luthier supply is way more.

Payman, glad it worked out!

Hank Levin - 3-16-2006 at 01:01 PM

Good idea about the labelling iron. I would not hesitate to speed the drying on the patches, but I don't think I'd trust it on the main joints force-drying them. Just a guess. --Hank

carpenter - 3-16-2006 at 04:42 PM

I have a Coverite iron, with handy heat setting knobbie - a model airplane item for covering wings. Worked great on heating up the hide-glued rib end/bowl joints. Dial in the heat setting on a scrap...gets hot enough to scorch light wood.

Jonathan - 3-31-2006 at 07:09 PM

OK, on to the rosettes. Wasn't sure what to use, but this Abalam material looks awesome. Some sort of synthetic abalone. It comes in a lot of different shades. It is really hard to get a picture of it, because the colors change so much with the slightest movement. A lot of turqoise, greens, and a tiny bit of pink. Unusual, but there are old ouds out there with abalone roses. I am even thinking of using it to make an incredibly thin ring for the purfling around the roses. It would have to be super thin, though, and I am not sure how well this stuff will cut. And, I would probably use a much softer shade if I decide to do it, so as not to detract from the rosettes. Some are just a nice, pearlescent white. Might be cool to have a thin, thin, thin ring of that.

Jonathan - 3-31-2006 at 07:12 PM

Now for my lazy man's approach to the rose.
I took a picture of a rose that I liked. I printed it. I fiddled around with it on a copier until it was the exact size I needed.

Then, I sandwiched the abalam between particle board, and pasted the pic of the rose on top.

Then drilled in the holes, and started to get at it. Until my eyes started to give out. I can't do this for too long at a time, because it is kind of tough on the eyes.

In the pic below, you are looking at the picture of the rose glued onto the particle board. The central section of the rose is completed. I am dying to see what the abalam looks like under that wood.

Jonathan - 3-31-2006 at 08:41 PM

For the small eyuns, I had planned on using that pattern with the small bird--pretty common old-school thing that I love (there's an example of it below).
But, I think that the abalam might detract from the bird, and make the bird not even noticeable. So, I may end up just going with a geometric pattern.

Jonathan - 4-2-2006 at 08:01 AM

OK, I know I didn't wow any of you guys with that abalam stuff. You could be right. Anyway, I am going to keep going with it and see what happens. In the meantime, I tasked it up behind my face to see how it would look.
I am not done with it yet--still have a bit of carving out to do, especially at the outer portion of it.
The bold pattern does detract a bit from the design, unfortunately. I could dull it down a bit with a super fine sandpaper, I guess, but I think I will leave it like this. For the purfling, I am just going to go with the simple purfling strips, or else the whole thing is going to get way too loud.

Jameel - 4-2-2006 at 08:32 AM

Jonathan, glad to see you making some more progress. We can't wait to see it finished! I'm not crazy about abalam for roses, too busy, but I do like your pattern. I'm curious how you are going to cut the mortises for the hole purflings now that you've removed any center point. Have you developed a new technique we should know about? I'm attaching a pattern for the bird roses you mentioned. This is from a Nahat oud.

Jonathan - 4-2-2006 at 08:50 AM

Jameel, I am not sure about it, either. I might even dull it down a bit with some fine grit paper. The back side of this is duller, and I almost think it might look better.
The problem is that your eyes can't focus on the pattern because it is so busy.

The more I think about it, the better that sounds. I will dull down a scrap of this stuff, and post that, and see what you think.

This stuff was nice to work with, though, and it is fairly light weight.

I still have that mircata. I might even scrap the rose above, and re-do it with the mircata. I have to sit on this one for a few days and think about it. It would be hard to scrap something that I have already spent that much time on, though.

As far as the purfling channels:
I mount this face onto a thick slab of wood that has the three center points, and the circumscribed line where the holes are. I initially used that board under this face to cut the holes. I used one of those hand hole cutters (not the one that is attached to a drill). So, the holes are there, and I can tell where to line up the face.
Hopefully, that will work. This face is bigger than the final face, and I tack it down with small carpenter nails--it has not been a problem. Fortunately, the wood has not split at all. Don't look to me for new techniques. I am just trying to get through this with all of my fingers.

I love that bird. Beautiful, Jameel. Thank you very much. I don't think I will use it this time, unless I switch to the mircata.

Jonathan - 4-2-2006 at 08:53 AM

I love that pattern, Jameel. Now I realize that those are grapes on a vine. A dove, grapes, vine. A lot of religous imagery that I don't think is an accident.

Jonathan - 4-2-2006 at 01:23 PM

You had me stressed, Jameel, so I figured I better start on the purfling.
Here's the board I was talking about.
I had initially cut the holes on this board, so the center marks were already there.
I have put in the purfling channels. I used one of those hand hole cutters. It just pivots around a central dowel, and you turn it by hand. I like, but next time, I am going to put a mark on the blade at 1mm. The only problem is the fear of going through the face. The spruce is 2mm, and the channel is supposed to be 1 mm, so there is not a lot of room for error.

Jonathan - 4-2-2006 at 01:26 PM

I decided to use some 3 band purfling strips (black/white/black) that I got off of lmii

Jonathan - 4-2-2006 at 01:28 PM

This step went fairly well. I like the way it turned out.
I bevelled the inside edge of each of the soundholes--I like that look a lot better than simply leaving it squared off. It caused a small irregularity on the central soundhole at 1 o'clock, but otherwise, I am pleased.

Jonathan - 4-2-2006 at 01:30 PM

I roughed up the back of that abalam with some sandpaper, and gave it a matte look. Might be better like this. The flip side looks the same as that initial pic of it that I posted. I am not that happy with that version, but this duller version I might be able to live with.
Again, I still have some more carving to do on that rosette.

SamirCanada - 4-2-2006 at 03:19 PM

OH! nice...
I like it much better like that. Not as much glitter going on.
Noice work on the purfling too!
Good luck for the rest!!

Jonathan - 4-4-2006 at 09:34 AM

Thanks, Samir. It was a bad choice, really, but I can live with it dulled down. I think I am still going to dull it down a bit further than what I have here.
I like the way things are shaping up. The face is not cut to exact size yet, so it might look a little mis-shapen. And, the roses are not set into place, just put in place with a little tape to get an idea of how it will look.
The good thing is that the material is very very lightweight. The whole face is just incredibly light. I have a hard time believing that this thing is going to last once strung up, but we will see.
A while back, somebody (DocO?) wrote that the best ouds are on the verge of collapse. Well, I know I can get it to collapse, so I am almost there!

Peyman - 4-5-2006 at 01:05 PM

That looks awsome Jonathan. I don't know why you would want to dull it down :shrug:

Jonathan - 4-6-2006 at 05:09 PM

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Jonathan - 4-24-2006 at 05:58 AM

I got a lot done over the past week, so I will be putting up a few pictures over the next couple of days.
One more shot of the the back of the oud:

Jonathan - 4-24-2006 at 06:00 AM

I trimmed the face down to size. I planned on using a simple black purfling, so, after cutting it down to the size of the oud bowl, I then had to trim a bit more off so I had room for the purfling.
I know there is a tool for this, but I don't have it, so I just notched a scrap of wood to the correct size, and used that to make a guideline.

Jonathan - 4-24-2006 at 06:05 AM

I guess I should mention that I reset the neck one more time, as well. Let's see, that makes the third time. The first time, the profile was all off, as was the angle. The angle was off, I believe, because of the clamping involved while the glue set.
The second time it turned out OK--a perfectly straight line with the neck and tail blocks.
Then, the more I thought about it, the more I decided I wanted the top of the neck set back just a bit--2 mm. The tension of the strings may pull it up and, with time, necks do warp.
So, I reset it, using hide glue this time. Hide glue is pretty amazing. I used no clamps at all. Just some duct tape to hold the neck in place with the body. And it turned out awesome. Hide glue is the way to go. A little more work, but the results are better in the end.
Here's a shot of the braces. I should have masked the area around the braces, because you can see residual glue there, which I will remove. You can tell that woodworking is new to me--masking it would have taken two seconds, and saved me a lot of time.
I am so glad that I dulled down the rosettes on the other side--they look pretty hideous like this.

Jonathan - 4-24-2006 at 06:09 AM

I had questioned in an earlier post whether or not the position of the bottom two braces was arbitrary. It had seemed to me that the braces around the rosettes were fixed by the location of the rosettes, but that the builder could play a bit with the location of the bottom two braces.
This really is not true.
The length from the nut to the junction of the neck with the bowl has to be one third of the total string length. The bridge position is dependent on those bottom braces so it really largely dictates where they are going to be.
I had made a bridge a few months ago, and posted pictures of it at that time.
I was playing around with some scraps of wood, however, and ended up making a new one. It is mahogany, with assorted woods on the top.
I like it.

Jonathan - 4-24-2006 at 06:10 AM

Here's a better view of it. Ridiculously easy to make, and it looks cool.
You can sort of see the rosettes here--a lot better dulled down.

Andy - 4-24-2006 at 08:40 AM

Excellent job Jonathan, will be waiting to hear the final result.

Jonathan - 4-24-2006 at 07:43 PM

Thanks, Andy. I appreciate it.
So, here it is with the face just resting in place--not glued in yet.
Starting to finally look like an oud.

I know that it would have probably been preferable to have put the mizraplek on by now. I have been struggling with which material to use, and the shape. The whole look of the oud changes so much when the mizraplek is placed, so I want to take my time deciding. So, it is going to wait until the end. Hopefully, by then, I will have made up my mind.

Jonathan - 4-24-2006 at 07:45 PM

I continued with the hide glue. I first primed the edges of the ribs, let that dry, and then glued it into place, agian using hide glue. I cut out some wax paper to the size of the face, and then used tape to pull it together. Fit together very nicely. Then, she sat for a day.
What a sloppy work space. Should have picked up after myself before I took the picture.

Greg - 4-25-2006 at 04:14 AM

It's looking great Jonathan.

For the first time in over forty years, a new Varjabedian oud is about to be born.
It must be very exciting for you to be following in your grandfather's footsteps.

Sincere best wishes,

Greg

Jameel - 4-25-2006 at 04:46 AM

Jonathan,

Looking great. Seeing it come together is very satisfying.

Great way to put it Greg. I'm sure Jonathan's grandfather is smiling

Jonathan - 4-25-2006 at 05:31 AM

Thanks, guys. I was so unhappy with the way things were going in the beginning. I almost scrapped the project a couple of times to start over. I am glad I didn't.
But, I am learning, and I think that my skill level, meager as it is, is improving.
This is really turning out to be a very very satisfying project. I can see myself always having an oud project going.
I never thought of it that way, Greg, but a beautiful sentiment. I never knew the man, but I feel a real closeness to him. The weird thing is, it is starting to look like one of his.
For my label, I actually incorporated the graphic of an oud that he had on his label--a tribute to him.

Back to the project.
I liked that bridge so much that I decided to use it for the purfling, as well. A lot of scraps. Maple, rosewood, walnut, cherry.

Mike - 4-25-2006 at 05:32 AM

Wow Jonathan! This is going to turn out to be one fine oud my man. I have really enjoyed watching your progress throughout this whole project. Can't wait to see the finished product, although we've got a pretty good idea with the latest pictures. Keep it up bud.
Take care,
Mike

Jonathan - 4-25-2006 at 05:37 AM

Thanks, Mike. I can't wait either, but at least now I have a pretty good idea of what it will look like.
While we are at it, I guess I ought to add that I made a quickie support stand for the oud. Really helped a lot. Nothing fancy--just a block of wood with the profile of the bowl cut out of it. Then I just put a little right angle brace on the table to hold the top of the oud in place.

I am working on a new support stand that I will be able to turn as I work on the oud. I will give you details when I get it done.

Jonathan - 4-25-2006 at 05:39 AM

Getting there.

Don't know that it means much, but if I just tap lightly on the face, it puts out a lot of a nice deep tone. We'll see.

Jonathan - 4-25-2006 at 05:42 AM

Purfling is now around the edge of the face, as well--still have to sand it and make it smooth.
Unfortunately, I won't be able to do anything on the oud for another month or so, but I ought to be able to finish it by the end of May (hopefully).
Actually, that is the date that I put on my label--"May, 2006".
I know this is a minor point, but how do oud makers generally date the oud? By the time you put that face on, you still have a lot of work to do. Is that date generally the date that the face was put in place?

SamirCanada - 4-25-2006 at 05:48 AM

Looking Good Dr.
Iam really enjoying this thread. It must be such a thrill like Greg and Jameel said to follow in the footsteps left by your Grandfather. Its almost like he left you clues for you to discover and then finaly lead you to this. What a good feeling it must be. God works in mysterious ways :cool:
Also from the last picture you can tell the neck action is going to be much better so it will eventualy lead you to play it more often (thats a good thing). It was really a good idea to get it right. Well Done, Keep it up.

Jonathan - 4-25-2006 at 05:50 AM

Thanks, Samir. Kind of hard to tell in that last picture, but it actually sets back 3mm. Might be too, much, but I think it will be ok. I hope. Maybe.

SamirCanada - 4-25-2006 at 06:08 AM

Sorry I meant 3 pictures above... I didnt realize you were still posting pics while I was typing the message. :D

Actualy I think 3 mm is fine right now because dont forget that the fingerboard will add you thickness so it should come close to a 2mm depression if your fingerboard is around 1mm thick.

Jonathan - 4-25-2006 at 06:18 AM

Thanks, Samir. I knew which one you meant--I just meant that the perspective isn't that great. I should have put a straight edge on it and taken a photo from the side.
I really couldn't do any of this without everybody's help. That graphic you posted awhile back showing the proper neck angle helped a lot.

SamirCanada - 4-25-2006 at 06:46 AM

Well I wouldnt know anything about oud making if it wasnt for Jameel. He's awnsered every single question I ever had about fixing up ouds. He's verry humble but he diserves many compliments.

When I put the fingerboard in place the last time.. I had to plane down and sand down the fingerboard after it had been glued. the reason for that being that I wasnt comfortable cuting it to exact thickness right away.. So I wanted to adjust it after it was on. Because I learnt that you can always shave off wood.. but you cant put it back on :P

Dr. Oud - 4-25-2006 at 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
...Kind of hard to tell in that last picture, but it actually sets back 3mm. ...

You can always make the fingerboard tapered to adjust for the setback if it seems too much. Ideally the action will be at it's lowest point (3mm at the body joint) with the string loops tied near the top of the bridge. This will allow some adjustment if the oud bends over time.

Jonathan - 4-27-2006 at 09:25 AM

My fear is that I am going to string it up, and find that it is buzzing. Do you not know until the very end? Or do you somehow tack the rough cut fingerboard in place, string it up, and see how it plays? I would hate to do all the work on the fingerboard, and then find out that I needed a taper.
Thanks!

Jameel - 4-27-2006 at 10:48 AM

Jonathan,

Here is my experience. Hope it helps. I hold a straightedge that is as long as the scale length on the face, butting up to the front face of the bridge, NOT on top the bridge. Between the top surface of the neck and the bottom egde of the straightedge I slip a piece of wood that is the same thickness as the face where it meets the neck. In essence, this is your fingerboard, just not glued in place yet, it's not tapered, but is the same thickness as the face. So now you can observe your neck angle. Three conditions are possible.

1. There is a gap under the straightedge beginning at the nut (don't count the dip in the face, that will always show up) and tapering wider towards the neck joint.

2. The straightedge sits completely flat along the neck (the other end is still on the face right in front of the bridge)

3. The straightedge contacts at the neck joint and the gap tapers wider towards the nut.

Given that string tension will always raise the nut end of the neck (as a rule) I try to shoot for a slight setback, as in condition 3. That way the neck will either have a lesser setback under tension or will end up flat, either of which will result in good action. A key to getting good, non-buzzing action (the lowest action possible without buzzing) is to make sure your bridge has enough height to allow some adjustment. The problem with older ouds is trying to tie the strings low enough, this is accomplsihed with the strings holes being low enough in the bridge. With newer ouds that have lower action, the bridge needs to be tall enough that the action can be raised a bit by tying the strings higher. Generally, I try for a set back of a millimeter or two. On my last oud, I had quite a large setback, made a tapered fingerboard to compensate, and I ended up making it too tapered (larger at the nut end). Everything looked perfect during the build, but after I had it strung up, the action ended up being just right with the strings tied at their lowest possible position. It played fine, (Simon Shaheen used it this way for that concert) but didn't allow any adjustment. So I ended up removing the fingerboard (I only glued it at its edges with hide glue, so removal was a snap). By the time I was done, the fingerboard was the same thickness from one end to the other. It's just one of the idiosyncracies of this instrument. There are so many factors that affect it (wood species, face thickness/flexibility, neck strength, neck joint strength I imagine) that I found shooting for a slight setback is the best place to start. Sometimes they just need to be tweaked....I hope this helps

String Action

Hank Levin - 4-27-2006 at 01:30 PM

Jonathan--

I've been following this last subject with great interest. I consider myself pretty good at adjusting actions (you've seen some of my work), but not really confident enough to give advice. However, I'll share some observations from my own experience:

Turkish ouds generally have a somewhat lower action. Necati Çelik likes about 1.7-1.8 mm. Selim Koytak (his student) likes around 2.5 - 2.8 mm or so. I'm still experimenting with my own---but generally, 3.0 mm is pretty high for classical Turkish music.

Also, I've found that the string tension barely raises the action on a well-put-together oud. I almost don't compensate for it, unless the oud has a particularly thin neck. This is as opposed to a bouzouki or tanbur, which has a substantial "whip" from the string tension.

Another interesting thing I've had to cope with in Turkish ouds, especially with low action, is that in very humid weather the super-thin belly--along with the bridge-- expands and bulges in and the action gets lower--enough so that if the action was at an absolute minimum, it will now buzz. When the sun comes out for a few hours, the buzz goes away. Nerve wracking.

Having spouted my two cents, I'd really like to hear what Dincer Üsta has to say about setting up the string action on ouds.

Dincer hoca, are you listening?

--Hank Levin

oudmaker - 4-29-2006 at 09:57 PM

Hank is rigth.
Under high action the neck tends to come up. But as he said 1.7 to 2mm action you don't expect too much of a movement of the neck because almost all the forces transmitted to the neck is in compression. Especialy if your angle of the peg box is right. You will have very minimal moment bought at the nut area and at the neck joint to the belly. So two points : design the angle between the neck and peg box correct and use as less as possible action which you are comfortable with. Even some good players ( Cinucen was one of them) don't worry about a little buzz they may have but like lower action.
Regards to all
Dincer

akram - 5-3-2006 at 10:04 PM

could past sound sample

thank you akram

Jonathan - 5-4-2006 at 02:36 PM

Akram--I will post a sound sample as soon as it is completed.
Thanks, guys for all of your help. Jameel, Hank, Dincer--you have made it all very clear. I understand the points made, although I do not want buzzing. I think most players do not want buzzing. Personally, it would drive me crazy.

At this point, I am just hoping that the thing does not collapse when I string it up.

I'm seriously thinking of using shellac for the finish instead of the gun oil. I will keep you posted, and pester you with questions when I get closer to that point. I still plan on having the oud done by June 1--I have some free time at the end of the month.

carpenter - 5-4-2006 at 03:11 PM

I'm much happier than I thought I would be with the Tru-Oil. I've done my share of shellac and French polish, and I like it where appropriate, but the oil is sure quick and easy.

Might be the older I get, the less fussy, too...there's that.

Jameel - 5-4-2006 at 04:33 PM

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/FinishOverview.htm

Here's a link Jonathan, with very detailed instructions for both french polish and Tru-oil. At the moment I'm finishing Mike's Hifnawi with Tru-oil. I can't stress enough how easy it is to apply and get an excellent result. Almost zero learning curve. I have limited (ok, none) experience with French polish, but it does take some skill. The Tru-oil can be applied as thinly or thickly as you want for a more natural look, or a more film-like gloss. It's just such a great finish (and so easily repairable) that I'm not sure I'll ever try French polish. My first oud I put a relatively light Tru-oil application, since I wanted a more natural look, but I think that going to perhaps a dozen coats or so would be a bit more durable and shiny, if that's the look you're after. If I were you, for your first oud I'd try the Tru-oil. You'll get tons of satisfaction when you wipe on that first coat! And you won't have to worry about mixing fresh shellac, alcohol, oil, pumice, special fabrics, etc. You can start applying Tru-oil with a old t-shirt and a bottle of the stuff (which you can get at dozens of places--Wal-Mart is my supplier--or Gander Mountain, or pretty much any gun shop). Make sure you sand very thouroughly, this is the key to getting a good Tru-oil finish. Get 'er going Jonathan

Hank Levin - 5-4-2006 at 05:38 PM

Jonathan,

About the finish, my two cents worth:

Oils (or any finish) that absorbs into the wood and doesn't harden will strip the resonance from that part like a wet washrag. The finish on the back doesn't matter that much otherwise---but it should dry hard.
I have a preference for shellac, ending with French polish, but it takes some time to build up the skill. It's fun, though, and the traditional finish on the old great ouds. You can get materials from Luthiers Mercantile, and I think they have some good instructional stuff on their website. (However, the "good" instructional stuff I've seen makes it a LOT more complicated than what I find necessary.)

Please, don't put any finish whatever on the face---especially an oil!

Good luck!
Hank

Hank Levin - 5-4-2006 at 05:51 PM

I wrote my previous post while Jameel was posting his, so I missed it.

I don't know anything about tru-oil, but it sounds like a tung oil preparation. If so, it's basically a varnish, applied with a rag. Great for cabinets. That's what I used to finish the book shelves and computer hutch in my office. I'd be leery of it on an oud, as I don't think it would be brittle enough to reflect sound.

BTW, one of the things I love about French polish is that you can easily repair it with an additional application.

I think Mustafa uses some kind of really tough automotive synthetic---maybe water-based---that he sands down and buffs out. I'll know more about it when I visit next time. But I'll tell you, the buffing operation is done with a big stationary wheel buffer, and it's hair-raising! Looks like you'd have to be willing to lose a couple of ouds learning to do it. :rolleyes:
Hank

Jameel - 5-4-2006 at 07:15 PM

Hank's right. Shellac is #1. But Tru oil actually does dry hard. Hard enough to rub out actually. I think a lot of people who have never used it get turned off because they hear the word "oil". Understandable. I can't imagine putting linseed oil, or something like Watco on my oud. But thin rubbed (the actual action of application is much like fp) coats dry hard enough to scuff sand within an hour or so. You can just as easily repair Tru Oil, just apply another coat. You should give it a try, Hank. If you do, I promise to learn french polish! :D How much do you think the finish on the back affects sound? I can't imagine so much, unless it's some hideous thick plastic coating. I'm not a fan of the nitro-type or catalyzed finishes. When I pick up the oud, I want to know I'm holding wood, not wood encased in a plasticy shell. I can't imagine introducing an oud I made to a spinning buffer. I think I would have a heart attack just thinking about it! A well excecuted Tru oil finish is quite popular among classical guitar makers, or so I've read. There's actually an expert classical maker near me, John Dick. I wonder if he has any tips that would transfer to oud making?

Hank Levin - 5-4-2006 at 09:08 PM

Jameel,

Intriguing to me that you say it gets hard enough to scuff in an hour. Yes, anything like Watco, linseed oil, or even tung oil varnish is not really hard enough for a string instrument. I wonder what Tru-oil's composition is. I also wonder if they sell it at Luthier's Mercantile. Guess it's time to check outside the box---or for the old dog to see if there's a new trick to learn. --Hank

Jameel - 5-5-2006 at 03:57 AM

Hank,

Yes, they are big proponents of it at Luthier's Mercantile. Here is a direct link for their instruction for it. http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/TruOil.htm You can indeed scuff sand in an hour with a thin coat, and the people at LMI advise very thin coats. As for its composition, maybe you could find it at the MIMF Library. I haven't been able to find out.

oudipoet - 5-5-2006 at 10:06 AM

i am sure it s gonna be a very nice oud i can not wait to see its played and hear the sound of it i hope u will finish it soon Jonathan.

Jonathan - 5-7-2006 at 08:25 PM

Thanks, oudipoet. At the very least, I think I can get it to look decent. I have no idea if it will sound good. For all I know, the thing may fall apart when it is strung up. Looking at other pictures, I think I may have put those bottom two braces a bit too close together. Oh, well. It gives the bridge good support, I suppose. I hope that the placement does not kill off any of the sound. The oud does seem fairly resonant when I tap on the face lightly. And, although I made about a million mistakes on the bowl, the face turned out OK, and that is the important part. And there is a good strong neck/body joint.

I just want to be able to play it and not have it fall apart on me.

I worry about the braces. They seemed to fit well, but it is tough to know if all of the braces have made a good contact with the bowl at this point. I think they have, but it is impossible for me to know for sure.
Thanks for the incredible links.

The good thing about the shellac, I guess, is that if I screw it up, I can always remove it and go ahead and use the Tru-oil.

I have been making a small marquetry tray with my scraps from this project--I think I will go ahead and shellac that, and see if I can get a decent result. If it looks good, I will try it on the oud. If not, I will go ahead with the Tru Oil. I will also try using the TruOil on some scraps to compare.

I do like a shiny finish, and I think I might be better able to achieve that with the shellac. The problem, I suppose, is that the shiny finish might make my mistakes a bit more noticable.

Don't you guys think, though, that shellac might be more protective of the wood than the TruOil?

If I use wood for the mizraplek, should I coat this, as well, with Tru Oil (or shellac)? I assume that I should put something on it, rather than leave it as raw wood. I purchased an imitation Tortoise (tor-tis) for the mizraplek, but it might be a bit loud. I will post some pics of it, and of the possible wood veneer, tomorrow, and get your thoughts.

What's the Arabic term for mizraplek?

This seems like a petty question, but when an oud label is dated, does the luthier generally put down the date that he put the face on the instrument?

I have a week to devote to this project at the end of the month, and I want to have everything ready to go.

carpenter - 5-7-2006 at 09:10 PM

My opinion is that Tru-oil is much more protective than shellac. Definitely harder, and I guess acteone would dent it - maybe...my dad used Tru-Oil on many gunstocks, and they take a beating in the field. Tuff stuff. Like I said, I'm happy with it. And it's pretty easy to touch up afterwards.

Fiddles still get oil varnish, of course. Gotta draw the line somewhere.

The trouble might be hearing "oil" and thinking "soft."

Jonathan - 5-8-2006 at 07:04 AM

I think you are right. That term "oil" throws me off. I have absolutely no experience with it (or shellac either, for that matter), so I will pick some up, and make some trials on scrap.

A few choices for the mizraplek. The first is a lacewood veneer, the second mahogany veneer, and the third is Tor-tis (imitation tortoise). I'm leaning toward the third, although I sense that I may have problems cutting it, even if I do warm it up a bit. I swabbed a bit of mineral spirits on the wood for this shot. I think the lacewood is too light--aesthetically, there ought to be more of a contrast between the mizraplek and the face.

If I use the veneer, I can coat it, can't I? I know nothing is going on the face itself, but I can treat the mizraplek, right?

Thanks!

carpenter - 5-8-2006 at 07:21 AM

Speaking of shiny, don't forget to get down to an auto body finish supply shop - polishing/buffing compounds that work great on the Tru-Oil: by hand, no machines required. Also really fine wet-or-dry sandpapers, 1500 grit, 2000; probably "and up." Lo-tack masking tapes, a world of wonders.

Hank Levin - 5-8-2006 at 07:29 AM

Jonathan,

My vote is for the imitation tortoise. You may also use black wood dye on the wood veneers. I would definately put finish on the wood veneers, especially if you dye them, to insure that they do not bleed. I kind of like the small oval mizraplekler like Manol and Mustafa use, preferred by classical oudis, rather than the huge ones that cabaret musicians use to keep from ripping up the face.

The only thing I'd stay away from is that pearlescent plastic that we used to call (when I was building & repairing instruments in NY) "mother of toilet seat."

Hank

Greg - 5-8-2006 at 07:39 AM

Jonathan,

If you decide to go with the Tor-tis, heat it up more than a bit. Put it in a bowl of very hot water and re-immerse it several times, if you have to, during the cutting process.
If you don't heat it enough, it will chip and split. But if kept warm and floppy during the cutting process, it will cut very easily with scissors. I would suggest you aim to cut wide of the finished line and finish with sandpaper, when it has regained its stiffness.
I could never build an oud like you, but I have cut a lot of rishas with this stuff.

Regards,

Greg

Jonathan - 5-8-2006 at 07:46 AM

Greg--If I can build it, trust me, anybody can.

I love having pictures of the oud as it has developed, but I wish I took pictures of my hands during the same time period. Cuts, bruises. . . I am surprised I still have all of my fingers.
I am no woodworker!

I have tried to cut rishas with the stuff, too, and had a problem with cracking/splitting. I guess I wasn't heating it up enough.

Hank, I agree with you. I like a small mizraplek. Intuitively, I would have to think that the smaller the mizraplek, the less dampening on the sound. I will probably go with the Manol oval. I have toyed with the idea of something just a bit larger, though, so that the tortis can approximate the outer purfling lines on the small rosettes. I think it looks really nice when the mizraplek perfectly matches these lines--maybe staying just outside of them by a mm or two.
We will see. The tortis is not large, however (this stuff is expensive!), so there is no way the mizraplek is going to be very large.

I have an oud with the mother of toilet seat--looks wretched, and I think that is why I picked it up pretty cheap. But it sounds really good. What were they thinking?

SamirCanada - 5-8-2006 at 10:22 AM

Good stuff Jonathan.
The name for the mizraplek in arabic is "Raqma"
If you decide to go with the wood veneer tainted or not. I would definetly coat it with a hard finish. I think it looks much better for one but it also prevents the wood veneer from cracking and lifting up from the face. Dont finish the face though obviously.
The Raqma on my shehata isnt finished and I do find it fragile a little bit. I wish I would have had it finished. I really doubt it would strongly affect the sound.

Jonathan - 5-11-2006 at 06:51 AM

Are you guys pretreating the wood with any sort of pore filler before the TruOil, or just putting it directly on the wood? I talked to lmii, and I got a pretty vague answer--that you can pretreat the wood, or you can skip that step.

The bowl was the maple and lacewood--I am not that worried about those, although perhaps I should be. The neck, though, is largely mahogany (with an ebony stringer and 2 rosewood "stringers" -not through the neck block), and this seems much more porous. Although I have not done any fine sanding on it, I think that, because of the grain of the wood, there will be an area on each side of the neck that might be a bit difficult to make smooth.
I ordered the TruOil and the micro-filler--should be here in the next day or two. I will test it all on scraps, and post some pics.

Jameel - 5-11-2006 at 07:35 AM

I do the first coat using Tru oil. Although you could put a sealer coat of shellac if you want. Zinsser Seal Coat is a fine product for this. It might be a good idea since Tru oil and some rosewoods dont get along, the truoil will stay sticky for a while before it dries, although it hasn't done it for me. Follow the lmii instructions and you won't be dissapointed. What is the micro-filler? Is it clear? colored? For the open pore mahogany I assume.

Jonathan - 5-11-2006 at 08:19 AM

I haven't gotten the microfiller yet--I ordered it. I will give you details when I get it.
And, here, too, maybe I ought to make some tests with and without the stuff.
I am just going by what it says in the blurb on their website:
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Finishes...

Not sure if I am going to need it or not, yet.

Jonathan - 5-16-2006 at 08:12 AM

You guys are so right about the TruOil. I was playing around with it, and treated a small tray that I made out of my oud scraps. I put on 3 coats of the Sealer and Filler, and 2 coats of the Tru Oil finish. Unbelievable.
Easy to apply. Can be brought up to a high gloss like a French Polish--to my untrained eyes, it looks exactly like it if I don't sand it down with the 000 steel wool at the end. And feels like a nice hard surface. I am not going to even bother with the shellac, although I bought a small can of it.
Thanks! Going to get back to work on the oud in 1 week, and hopefully finish it by June 1
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