Mike's Oud Forums

My first oud

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Hank Levin - 5-16-2006 at 08:55 AM

>>I am not going to even bother with the shellac, although I bought a small can of it.<<

Just as well you didn't try to use it---you would not be happy with the results of French polishing shellac out of a can. It may never dry properly. French polish needs to dry rather instantly, in just a few seconds, to work. When you get around to trying French polish (really, it's not so hard---maybe no harder than the other stuff when you get the knack) get some dry flake shellac and dissolve it in denatured alcohol. It needs to be really thin.

When you get around to trying it, don't mix the oil into it, and don't use oil at all until the wood is completely filled with a couple of coats. Then the pad will begin to stick, and you will need the oil. If the oil gets into the wood, it will look shiny and then a few hours later it will be dull---and that will go on coat after coat.

Best,
Hank

Jameel - 5-16-2006 at 04:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
You guys are so right about the TruOil. I was playing around with it, and treated a small tray that I made out of my oud scraps. I put on 3 coats of the Sealer and Filler, and 2 coats of the Tru Oil finish. Unbelievable.
Easy to apply. Can be brought up to a high gloss like a French Polish--to my untrained eyes, it looks exactly like it if I don't sand it down with the 000 steel wool at the end. And feels like a nice hard surface. I am not going to even bother with the shellac, although I bought a small can of it.
Thanks! Going to get back to work on the oud in 1 week, and hopefully finish it by June 1


I told you it was great stuff! :xtreme: Glad you like it. What did you decide about the pore filler?

You'll want to rub it out after your last coat, and the level of gloss is dependant on how far you go with the rubbing. I just rubbed out some wood finished with tru-oil (after 1 week cure) with 0000 (don't ever use 000) steel wool (I use Liberon brand--no oil in it, and higher quality than hardware store variety) and Wool Wax, a rubbing lubricant. First time I tried the lubricant, and it gave great results. Very even abrasion, and a sheen that's between satin and semi-gloss, and let me tell you, it feels like silk. Just very smooth and silky to the touch. I never cared much for the high-gloss wet look on ouds, but if you're going for that, Tru-oil can take you there. This thread is a good read:

http://www.mimf.com/library/polishing_truoil.htm

Hank's right about the shellac. You've got to use fresh made shellac, although Frank Ford says you can fp with Zinsser Seal Coat. Never tried it myself though.

You might consider using Micro-mesh to rub out instead of steel wool. I've heard some great things about it (they recommend it at lmii and tons of luthiers use it). I also just discovered the people that make Micro Mesh are only about 45 miles from me.

Don't forget to post some pics after the first couple coats go on. :applause: We're waiting.

Jonathan - 5-16-2006 at 08:23 PM

Well, I probably did it wrong, then. I used 600 grit paper between the coats of filler, and 000 steel wool after the first coat of truoil. I will use the 0000 after this coat, although the 000 did seem to work well. This was not the oud, of course, so good to learn now.
Thanks again, guys, for everything.

SamirCanada - 5-17-2006 at 06:08 AM

While were talking about finishing ouds here and if you dont mind Jonathan... I have a few questions about finishing aswell and we might learn some usefull stuff. I have created an emergency situation for my shehata that is finished with French polish.
I was changing the strings today and I noticed that there was the oily residue left over from my fingers on the fingerboard. I dont like the look of this and since I tought for shure the fingerboard isnt finished I rubbed on some friction alchool on it with a small cloth. To my suprise, I noticed that the cloth became black with something... Dirt? finish? and that the whole fingerboard was now a bit lighter in color and looks bare. I think there might have been somekind of oil on it to protect it. Should I refinish the fingerboard with somekind of product? advice please? the fingerboard is ebony by the way.

Second more serious problem. I found out that alchool and french polish dont exactly mix... I had a oud with a synthetic finish before and when I brushed on some alchool on the bowl it would bring it back to a shine. I tried the same on a french polish and thank god I just tested a small area first but I found that it takes off the finish. What can I do to clean a french polish bowl from fingerprint marks etc.. to make it a bit more glossy?

Thanks in advance to our experts on the boards.

sydney - 5-17-2006 at 04:35 PM

I use a tiny touch of beeswax. I wonder what the experts will say?

AGAPANTHOS - 5-18-2006 at 02:50 AM

According to the tradition the fingerboards have to stay free from any kind of polishing materials of any type.
The only treatment of the fingerboard which always contains somekind of stiff, hard and very dense tropical wood, is to clean the whole surface of it by the aid of very thin steel wool and then to apply from time to time one or two drops of pure almond oil with a soft cotton fabric through a technique which resamples with the technique used in French polishing.
This is it!
As far as concern the alchool and the french polishing varnishes. We must have in mind that the pure alchool (95o) is the best solvent of french polishing mixt ups.If some body uses too much of it in order to retouch or finish the process of polishing of the bowl, which it might be from an open or a semi porous hardwood ,it is expected to take off the finish. You can have good results if you use the same french polishing varnish diluted with pure alchool in an analogy 1:1 or 1:2 or something like this.

Regards

Peyman - 5-18-2006 at 06:48 AM

In reply to Samir,
There is a fingerboard dye you can use (lmii.com). It's used to uniformaly blacken ebony fingerboards that have streaks of different color. It's alcohol soluble.
hope this helps.

Dr. Oud - 5-18-2006 at 03:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Peyman
In reply to Samir,
There is a fingerboard dye you can use (lmii.com). It's used to uniformaly blacken ebony fingerboards that have streaks of different color. It's alcohol soluble.
hope this helps.

I have used India ink, carefully now, don't drop it on the face!

SamirCanada - 5-18-2006 at 05:37 PM

Thanks for your awnsers guys.
I ended up adding some pure lemon oil to the fingerboard and to the pickgard wich was left dry.
I did research on the web about violin and guitar fingerbords witch is essentialy the same. And thats exactly what it needed. The alchool whiped off the oil deeply so the wood was left bare. The pickgard wich is also made of ebony was dry and starting to lift and develop cracks. Because those thin wooden parts are dry and keep drying so the part that is covered and glued down is protected so you need to keep it oiled. They recomend once a year doing that.
Thanks for the advice

Jonathan - 5-23-2006 at 01:35 PM

I am in that week long stretch--hope to finish the oud before the first of the month.
I am going to try to post some pics, but I switched over to another computer, and I first have to figure out how to reduce file size, then I will get some up.
I made the mizraplek out of the Tortis. Looks great, but--
I glued it on to the face with the hide glue, and it made a very very very weak bond. So, I removed it. What should I use. Regular carpenters glue? Tite bond? I guess I should probably remove the old hide glue off of the face, but I would almost hope I could leave it there rather than cause any damage trying to remove it.
Thanks, guys, for any help you can give me.

Jonathan - 5-23-2006 at 02:58 PM

Or, perhaps if I roughed up the back of the tortis with some sand paper, the hide glue would have worked.
?

Hank Levin - 5-23-2006 at 03:04 PM

Jonathan,

Time to decide what the "tortis" is made out of. Sounds like some kind of plastic. Is it acrylic? If so, you could use Duco or model airplane cement.

Yes, I'd carefully scrape off any hide glue that's built up on the surface as a "glaze" before you re-glue it. I wouldn't worry about the glue that's absorbed into the wood fibers.

If you rough up the underside of the mizraplek with medium sandpaper, there's a good chance that yellow carpenter's glue (alaphatic resin, not hide glue) will hold it.

If it's a soft plastic like nylon or vinyl (very unlikely), all bets are off. The only thing that might hold it would be contact cement---which is not at all good for the sound.

You can always contact the supplier and ask for a recommendation.

Whatever you do, mask the damn thing very carefully with masking tape. This will save you much grief because the glue will ooze out or bleed whatever you do. Run your thumb over the adhesive side of the tape before you stick it, to keep it from sticking so hard that it lifts the fibers when you pull it off. It will then be relatively easy to scrape of the few tiny spots where it bleeds out with an x-acto knife.

And let it dry a LONG time---there won't be any evaporation thru the mizraplek.

Good luck! --Hank

Hank Levin - 5-23-2006 at 03:07 PM

Yes, the hide glue will hold the plastic if it's roughed up---for a while. I think you can do better.
--Hank

Jonathan - 5-24-2006 at 12:13 PM

Thanks, Hank. Carpenter's glue (TiteBond) did the trick after I roughed up the surface a bit. I will try to get some pics up shortly.

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 02:19 AM

Dang.
I got a couple of small spots of tru-oil on the face. Nothing huge, but enough to drive me crazy. Any way of getting it off, or am I just going to have to live with it?

Jameel - 5-27-2006 at 03:56 AM

Well.....

Doesn't Richard's book mention masking the face? If you still have coats of finish to apply, it wouldn't be a bad idea. I use wax paper and low-tack (blue) masking tape.

As for getting it off the face, you're pretty-much stuck with it. Spruce is very porous, and that finish is IN the wood. Sanding it out is the only way. One thing you might consider is applying one thin coat only to the face. It would even out the color, and not really affect the sound with just this one coat. You could then burnish the face with 0000 steel wool to even the sheen (if it even had any). What grit did you sand the face to by the way?

Looking very good Jonathan

sydney - 5-27-2006 at 04:09 AM

I can not wait to listen to it's sound and also the culture that comes from it.

Good on you Bro.


Best wishes

Emad

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 04:18 AM

Yes, yes, I know--Richard's book mentions masking the face. My screw up.
Thanks, guys.

Jameel, I used just about every sand paper on the face, starting at the beginning with 220, and getting progressively finer, until I was at 000 or 0000 steel wool.

Paint thinner wouldn't work, would it?

I have to get some pics up. I am on a borrowed computer, and have to figure out how to reduce the file size. If not, it is going to have to wait until Tuesday.
Aesthetically, I am pleased with how things are shaping up. Sound wise, I have no idea yet.

I have 6 coats on the oud--three of the Tru Oil sealer/filler, and 3 of the Tru Oil finish. To me, it is indistinguishable from French Polish. The finish gets some depth to it, which I like. I have done nothing with the last coat yet. Not sure whether or not to use the steel wool on this last coat. I might just leave it like this.
And yes, I know that I am not supposed to coat the bowl until a week or so after I have strung up the oud, but, I have a family get-together on Monday, and I want to show it off a bit.
The oud really is done, I just need to work on the beard a bit--it proved somehow a bit more difficult than I thought. I have to reset it. The thing about the oud is that it is just so tough to clamp. Next oud, I think I am going to get some go bars.
Thanks again, to both of you.
Now, I have to get back to this computer and reduce some file sizes.

Jameel - 5-27-2006 at 05:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan

Jameel, I used just about every sand paper on the face, starting at the beginning with 220, and getting progressively finer, until I was at 000 or 0000 steel wool.

Paint thinner wouldn't work, would it?



So the face is nice and smooth, that's good. Paint thinner will only remove wet finish. And even on spruce, you'd be hard pressed to get it back to pristine white. It's gonna get marked up anyway, bud. My oud already has darkened where you play up the fingerboard. Nature of the beast. Show us some pics, man. Tough to advise without pics...
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan

And yes, I know that I am not supposed to coat the bowl until a week or so after I have strung up the oud, but, I have a family get-together on Monday, and I want to show it off a bit.


I finish the oud first, then string it up. I know Richard waits, but I hate stringing them up twice!!

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 06:11 AM

Thanks Jameel. The stain is up by the treble side of the beard--it will just look like wear, with time.
I'm trying for the pics, man. If anybody knows of a cheap (or free) download for pcs so I can reduce file size, let me know.
I put of one string. Nice volume. Unbelievably satisfying to hear that first note.

Hank Levin - 5-27-2006 at 06:52 AM

Jonathan--

Congratulations on finishing the instrument!

I don't understand---what's the thinking behind not finishing the bowl until a week after stringing? I know that if the pegs are fit before the head is finished, it's certainly a pain to keep tiny amounts finish from seeping into the peg holes and thus making the pegs sticky and creaky. The holes must be drilled first, of course; but the final reaming and fitting must be after the head is finished.

As for the finish stain on the face, have you tried acetone? I'd be surprised if that does not pick up the finish out of the wood, and it won't hurt the wood.

If acetone does not work, I'd try a gel type paint remover. I used to use Jasco. I don't know if it's still available, but I'm sure an equivalent is. Hopefully, you just paint it on over the finish and leave it sit for 15 minutes or so. If the day is warm, spreading a bit of saran wrap over the applied gel will keep it wet and active. It will curdle the finish, which can then be gently and carefully be scraped off with a blade of some sort. You'll want to follow up with a rag moistened with acetone, then sand to match the surrounding finish. The instructions may say to use water to deactivate the remover---follow the directions. If necessary, use it on a small cloth and dry it off ASAP. When you're done, you may want to try to even the face's color out with acetone.

Whatever you use to remove that spot, work very carefully and don't get it on the finished part---it will certainly mess up the finish. I'd mask any finished sections around the area just in case a drop splashes!

I would save using a "wash" coat of finish on the face as a very last resort. It works OK with French polish, especially if you use a dark shellac and really thin it out, so you're using it just for the color. That doesn't seem to affect the sound, but I don't know how that works for the Tru Oil.

Good luck! --Hank

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 07:06 AM

Thanks. Well, almost finished. I am resetting the beard--hopefully today. I will try the acetone. I have some scraps from the face, so I will use that for test patches.
I am not going to put anything on the face. If it is stained for good, I will just live with it. Like I said, it is by the treble side of the beard, so it will look like a wear pattern.
Thanks for the great tips.

SamirCanada - 5-27-2006 at 09:10 AM

Hi there.. Good to see that your pretty much Done.
also... if you have windows paint on this borrowed computer you can reduce the pictures size. Thats what I use. you go up in the IMAGE above dropdown menu and click on strech and skew. then if you put in a value like 50% the image will be twice smaller.

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 09:32 AM

I'll give it a shot

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 09:36 AM

Cool. Thanks, Samir. Love it. And free.
So, you can see I put on the mizraplek. I bought another Tortis than the one I showed earlier--I didn't like the pattern. I didn't want to put on a big mizraplek--I sort of like the old school look with just the small oval. But, I play a little bit higher than that, so I came up with this pattern. I like the way it hugs the purfling on the eyuns--I have seen that on other ouds, and I thought it looked cool. Other than that, nothing much--I just wanted some cool, graceful lines. I am happy with it.

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 09:41 AM

Here's my baby. 6 coats of Tru Oil on her--3 of sealer, 3 of finish.
I sanded that wood so much my arm is still sore--to 1200 grit.
Probably a waste, but it does look sweet. The bands on the maple really pop out, and the lacewood took on a lot of depth.
I made that neck band a bit bigger--sort of like Kyvelos does. I really do like the way it looks. The finish is neutral, so the beauty of the wood shines through.
I am probably still going to sand this down with the 0000 steel wool, and then use some car polish. Suggestions?

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 09:44 AM

Remember that area that I had to patch? I ended up just using a paint pen, signing my name, the date, and "Oud #1" on it. With the 6 coats of finish on there, I figure that it will not wear off.
I have to put up some more shots of the face, but I am resetting the beard, so it is going to have to wait for a while.

Mike - 5-27-2006 at 10:27 AM

Must be feeling pretty good right about now Jonathan. Congratulations on completion of the oud. I really enjoyed watching the progress of this project. Seeing you soak up all the knowledge from the experts and apply it was awesome too my friend. The oud turned out really nice. Let's get together soon man, and have an oud party. This time you come visit me! :-)

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 10:34 AM

Thanks, Mike. It's been way too long.

oudipoet - 5-27-2006 at 11:10 AM

i sure would love to see more pict from every angle it looks nice congrets.

Hank Levin - 5-27-2006 at 11:32 AM

Congratulations again, man!

The finish looks great, and the grain really jumps out. With that "name patch" you might start a trend.

Congratulations too on the longest damn string in history on the forum (I bet--right, Mike?)---14 pages.

Gule gule kullanin! (Use it with joy!)

Hank

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 06:05 PM

Thanks, guys. I will post pics from a bunch of different angles in a few days. Right now, the beard is setting, then I want to just clean that area up a tiny bit (see if I can get rid of that stain), and then I will take a bunch of pics.
I have played it with a total of one string--nice volume, good tone, but I will let you guys be the judge.

Jameel - 5-27-2006 at 06:07 PM

How rewarding is that!!! :airguitar: The oud looks gorgeous Jonathan. The woods look spectacular. And signing your name to that patch is a great example of turning a mistake (or in this case, damage) into something great. No one will EVER suspect what happened there. I love it. We must see some more pics, (the face and edging, pegbox etc) and of course some sound files. Really looking forward. So when's the next one due??

Jonathan - 5-27-2006 at 06:34 PM

Jameel, you are my inspiration with this whole thing. The wood does look awesome. But, tomorrow morning, I am going to use the 0000 steel wool on it, and then put on some auto wax. I might be going overboard on this, but I want the surface super smooth. It is smooth, but, when I run my hand over it, I want it to feel like glass.

I will get up a good set of pics from all angles in a few days. Sound file in a week or two. I actually messed up one of my fingers on this oud a few days ago (bad cut), and playing is difficult right now. But, it will be fine, and I should get a sound file up in the next 2 weeks.

So, here is my list of stuff that I learned from this experience. Things that I really need to keep in mind, and that I really did not understand when I started the project.
1. Wood choice. It's important. Go with woods that you have seen on other ouds. I would use the maple again in a second. It was not that tough to work with. The lacewood, for me, had a much higher tendency to crack when being bent, and was irritating on the skin. Others may have a different experience.
2. The neck block. You really have to think this through from the beginning, and look at that neck block and ask yourself if this is the profile of the neck that you want. I did not do that. It seems basic, I know--the neck block exactly dictates the profile of the neck. I made it all work by making a "cap" for the neck block, but I should have thought it through from the beginning, and gotten a better profile for the neck block right from the start.
3. Purfling between the ribs. Don't use my method. Dincer's approach would certainly have been better. It is impossible to simply glue it onto the rib and expect the angle to stay the same.
4. When taping the ribs together to dry, you really have to be careful of the amount of tension that is applied. I started the tape on the inside of what was to be the bowl, wrapped the tape around the edge of the new rib that was being attached, and over the top. This had the tendency to cause the bowl to become wider than planned. That "wrap around" approach is dangerous, and I am going to have to avoid it next time around. In fact, I am going to avoid duct tape for this part altogether, because I tended to put more tension on the ribs when I was using duct tape, as compared to when I was just using painter's tape.
5. Hide glue. I should not have been intimidated by the stuff. It is easy to make, and not that tough to use. It does require you to work faster, but there are areas that I will always use it in the future. In addition to the face and braces, I am going to use it when attaching the neck to the neck block. With the hide glue, no significant clamping was required (just tape). Whenever I used the Tite bond there and clamped the joint, I always introduced a distortion to that angle.
6. Tite Bond. I really like the stuff. Very, very easy to use. But, make sure the container is closed tight after use, because if it is not, it seemed to weaken. And, probably best to just by the small bottles. I could be wrong but, to me, it seemed to get less strong the older it got.
7. Abalam. Too expensive. Generally happy with the result, but not worth the cost.
8. Glue is heavy. It doesn't seem like it, but it is. When I first removed the bowl from the mould, it was super light. Too light, I thought. Sure, it seemed strong enough, but how could it be when it was this light? So, I put glue and sawdust along each rib joint (behind the paper). Didn't seem heavy at the time, but, by the end of it all, the bowl was much heavier, and, I am guessing, not significantly stronger.
9. Mask the mould. Use wax, tape, whatever. Just do something. In the beginning, I did not, and the central ribs got stuck to the mould. I ended up destroying the mould just to remove the bowl.
I am not even going to mention masking the face. . .


So, for what it is worth, those are my lessons learned on this project. If nothing else, they will serve as a reminder to myself as I work on my next one.

I am pretty happy with it. The only thing I am dissatisfied with, so far, is the size of the tail plate (whatever you call that thing on the bottom). But, again, this was my first oud, and my first wood working experience, so I am sure that in the future I will not have to make this part this large again.

When I finally get around to playing it, I may have a couple more. But, my gut feeling is that it is going to sound OK, and play OK, at least from my preliminary one string assessment. Of course, when I string it up, the whole thing might fall apart, but it seems pretty solid.
My next oud is probably just going to be mahogany for the bowl. I have the wood cut and the mould made. I would have liked to use alternating bands of mahogany and maple, and I might, but I don't know if the contrast of a very very hard wood and a much softer wood is going to cause me any trouble at the end when I start sanding. Probably not, I guess. I have to think about that a bit more. I like the look of the dark and light wood a lot but, on the other hand, I found some mahogany that looks really nice and might look good on its own.

So, not quite done, I guess, but close enough that I can give you all my most heartfelt thanks. Doc's book was incredibly valuable. As was his advice, and the advice of Jameel, Dincer, Hank, Samir, Peyman, and everybody else. I could never have even thought of doing this without everybody's help.

OK, so tomorrow, I unclamp the beard, do the final finish on the bowl, try to clean up that stain with some acetone, glue in the nut, and string this baby up.

All the best, guys.

And thanks again.

Peyman - 5-28-2006 at 06:56 AM

That looks awsome :xtreme:. I like the figure on the lacewood and I think the way you spread the ribs gives it a unique look. Thanks for the pointers too. I know you have to wait for the tension to set in, but the project is not complete untill a sound sample is posted :D.

Jonathan - 5-28-2006 at 09:38 AM

Thanks! A sound clip is coming in a week or so. I have had it strung up for a few hours now, and it seems that the tone changes significantly in just that short time. A lot of sustain, which I like. A bit trebbly, but I guess most ouds start out a little bright. I am very happy with it.
I guess I should have strung it up more gradually, but I just had to hear it.
Working on that stain now. The acetone helped. It did not remove it all, but it made it much better. I will give it another shot a little later in the day.
Still have to sand down the finish with the 0000 steel wool, and put on the wax. Not sure if any particular brand is best, but I will see what works.

Hank Levin - 5-28-2006 at 01:57 PM

Jonathan,

Trebbly is good---it's easy to get good bass on an oud; hard to get good treble. Some ouds don't open up in the treble for a year. --Hank

Jonathan - 5-30-2006 at 07:05 PM

My final set of pictures on this one. I tried to get shots from every angle.
I will have a sound clip up next week. I am very happy with it.
Again, thank you all for all of your help. I could not have done it without you

Jonathan - 5-30-2006 at 07:07 PM

It was worth resetting the neck, because the action turned out perfect.
I have no idea why I added that little ebony inlay at the peg box junction, but it looks ok. There is a very very thin strip of maple between the ebony fingerboard and the mahogany neck--not too apparent in this picture.

Jonathan - 5-30-2006 at 07:09 PM

other side.
This pic, and the two above, are after I sanded down that final coat of truoil, and put on two coats of wax. This is how the finish is going to be--I am not planning on doing any more to it.
The maple is all flamed, although it might not appear that way in the pictures--on some ribs, you have to turn the oud a bit and let the light catch it and then the flames pop out.

Jonathan - 5-30-2006 at 07:10 PM

The neck band was used to cover up that cap I placed on the neck block, but I like the way it looks. Just a scrap of veneer.
I wish I had kept that lacewood/maple banded pattern that I have on the peg box cap, and used it all the way down the back of the peg box--next time.

Jonathan - 5-30-2006 at 07:13 PM

The peg box is functional, but next time I do plan on making it a bit more decorative.
I guess I should have lined the oud up perpendicular to the ground for this shot, because the angle makes it look off a bit, which it is not.

oudipoet - 5-30-2006 at 08:20 PM

for first try it turned out very nice jonathan i hope you ll enjoy it for years to come and i sure hope you ll keep building more and more ouds.

ps: i can not wait to hear the sound of it

akram - 5-30-2006 at 08:37 PM

that is very nice oud
how is the sound?????

i whish you luck
akram

LeeVaris - 5-30-2006 at 09:20 PM

Wow...

Thanks for sharing this process with us - I can't wait to hear it! :xtreme:

Jonathan - 5-31-2006 at 04:39 AM

Thanks, guys. I am happy with it, and the sound is nice. Good volume, lots of resonance, and even throughout. I messed up my left hand a little bit, which makes playing temporarily difficult. I will get a sound sample up next week for sure.

abusin - 5-31-2006 at 05:04 AM

Hi Johnathan :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

I've followed your master calss for a while and was amazed by your beautifull work, you're an expert mate even if its your first creation and I very much appreciate your detailed approach to the project.

Although I missed on the neck, soundboard and pegbox bit I'm not sure if they Have been covered or not?

Let me take this oppertunity on your behalf to thank everyone participated via their advice, constructive comments and words of encouragemet.

And my friend you're a master, keep it up and I'm looking forward to see another master peice of yours

All the best to you and all

yours,

Awad

Jameel - 5-31-2006 at 05:42 AM

Looking nice, Jonathan. Can't wait to hear the sound clip.

Jonathan - 6-1-2006 at 05:33 PM

Thanks, guys. I will get something up tomorrow or the next day. Initially, I had it strung up using LaBella OU80s (Turkish), tuned to DGAdgc. I guess I did not want to stress the instrument out, so I did not go all the way up to EABead. The sound has changed over just these few days--a nice full sound with a lot more on the bottom end. Not sure why. Maybe the strings just hadn't settled in enough. Maybe the oud had to settle in. I have no idea. Don't know if that is expected to happen or not. I have had new ouds before, but have never had one from the moment of birth, so to speak.
So, now I have it tuned up to my usual EABead and, sometimes, DABead, and the sound is really nice, full, with a really long sustain on the bass notes. I have heard a lot better, but I have also heard a lot worse.
I hope to post something really soon, but I now realize that with all of those hours devoted to building the oud, I really should have been practicing more.

paulO - 6-1-2006 at 06:36 PM

Hi Johnathan,

Congradulations on finshing up your unique and beautiful instrument. Looking forward to the sound clips, and then again in say 6 months, one year etc !! Take care.

Cheers...Paul

Hank Levin - 6-1-2006 at 07:04 PM

I think you'll find that the treble changes drastically over the next few days, if you play it a lot. I've taken brand new ouds that sounded kind of muffled, and just prior to showing them to sell played the hell out of them for just a few hours---it opened the sound way up.

This phenomenon is well recognized in violins. I've heard the speculation that playing un-stiffens the glue joints. My own theory is that the instrument becomes imbued with the spiritual energy ("chi", "shakti," "can" etc.) of the maker and the player.

Anyhow, play loud! And play all the way up the neck.

BTW, I forgot---did you build a "scoop" into the face, to raise the string height over the mizraplek? --Hank

Jonathan - 6-1-2006 at 08:06 PM

Thanks, guys. Yeah, I built "the scoop." I had second thoughts while I did it, but I am glad it is there. I should have taken a decent photo of it.

Thanks for the info. I wonder if some of the reason that the sound of instruments improves is because, with time, the stress built into any musical instrument lessens. Less stress on the wood, on the glue. Just a thought.

Hank Levin - 6-1-2006 at 10:20 PM

You bet it's a good idea that you built the scoop into it. Especially with Turkish ouds, with their low bridges. I've seen beautifully built ouds (I won't say whose, because he knows better now) that were perfectly flat, made on the theory that in a couple of years the face would dip enough for the mizrap to clear the face. They were unplayable when new, and unplayable two years later.

John Merjanian showed me this "secret." I realized, as a lute maker, that lutes must have also used that technique. Lutes in museums have such twisted faces that it's perfectly reasonable to assume that it's purely from stress; but their bridges are also very low, and especially if you use a little nail for tone, you would be digging into the spruce with your nails half the time.

About stress relief improving tone, the strings put so much continuous stress on an oud (maybe 60-80 lbs) that it's a wonder the Turkish ones hold together for up to 100 years! They are always under stress. I have great respect for physiological phenomena, being not only an instrument maker but also an aircraft mechanic and a boat builder; but I've come to the conclusion that the infusion of the maker's energy into the instrument is no small thing. The makers of the greatest samurai swords understood this well---the sword might be mostly made by apprentices, but the master would perform the final tempering as a religious ceremony.

I have also had the experience of lending a mediocre set of Indian tabla to my tabla teacher Ustad Allah Rakha, and being amazed how good they sounded when they were returned to me the next day. After a week, they were mediocre again. By the way, Mustafa Çopckuoglu Usta understands this very well.

It is common knowledge that Guanari and Stradavari violins in collections must be played for several days before a serious performance, to "wake them up."

Instrument making is a spiritual endeavor.

Fondly,
Hank:bowdown:

Jonathan - 6-4-2006 at 06:32 AM

I recorded a couple of quickie tracks this AM. I just recorded it directly into the computer microphone--no processing or effects or anything like that.
Should have been practicing more. Hopefully, I will get back into that habit now that I am done with this oud.
The first track--not exactly oud music, but I love a lot of those old American standards from the 1930s and 1940s. Way way way before my time, but I love that stuff. I have a family member that always scolds me when I play stuff like this on oud. So, not exactly everybody's cup of tea. Starts out slow, and builds a tiny tiny bit.
The second track--sorry about the vocal at the end. Just a little improv in Nihavend that turns into a greatly abbreviated version of an old Turkish song. You will be glad it is abbreviated. And I know almost no Turkish, so I am sure my pronunciation is way off.
I am going to email the tracks to Mike today. I am on a new computer, and I haven't quite figured the thing out yet.
The playing is rough, but at least you will be able to hear the oud. I like the sound. Even in this one week, it has filled out a great deal. I wish you were hearing it being played by somebody with more talent, but at least you will get the idea of it.

Jonathan - 6-4-2006 at 08:12 AM

.

Jonathan - 6-4-2006 at 08:14 AM

Never mind, Mike, I think I have it.
That bass got sort of boomy when I reduced the file, but you get the idea.
If the files can't be openned, let me know.

Jameel - 6-4-2006 at 08:21 AM

Sounds lovely, Jonathan. What a great feeling to play your own oud, eh? Somehow, the first one is very satisfying regardless of sound quality. Your satistfied enough that it stays together! :D And if it sounds nice (like yours) its a double reward. Play us something with a little oomph, so we can hear that puppy sing a little.

Jonathan - 6-4-2006 at 08:30 AM

I don't know how to do oomph!
Thanks, Jameel. I will try to knock out something a little more uptempo--tonight or tomorrow.

SamirCanada - 6-5-2006 at 11:23 PM

It Sounds amazing Jonathan...
Iam amazed at how the oud turned out.
I was thinking of words to describe how I felt for you. I dont think its quite possible with words after thinking about it.
Congradulations on keeping the family legacy alive.

Andy - 6-6-2006 at 06:59 PM

JONATHAN the oud sounds great and with time it will sound even better. :applause:

TruePharaoh21 - 6-6-2006 at 07:12 PM

I'm sure this going to sound quite childish...

I want to play!!!

akram - 6-7-2006 at 12:25 AM

very very nice
i like the sound.
have dood time playing your oud
akram

Peyman - 6-7-2006 at 08:39 PM

What is the extension of the audio file? I can't open it. I used winamp, wm but can't open it.
BTW, it looks like you got rid of the tru oil stain. It's not that obvious at all, probably with time it will disappear. I also just noticed the inlays on the sides and the back of the peghead. Neat!

Jonathan - 6-8-2006 at 03:34 PM

Thanks, guys. I really appreciate the comments. Wish I could have done a better sound file for you--those two were pretty rough. My messed up finger is steal healing up. Still, you get the idea of it.
Peyman, the tru oil stain wasn't that big, but, yeah, a lot of it went away with your advice. Unfortunately, I replaced it with discoloration from sanding down the beard--that is why the area around the beard looks sort of darkish. Again, I should have masked. I figure that will work itself out eventually. Maybe.

It is a strange thing that, individually each part of the oud seems so incredibly weak, and you can't imagine that the thing will stay together. Then, when assembled, it seems incredibly strong.

TP--anytime. It would allow me to finally hear what this thing sounds like in the hands of somebody who knows how to play. Hopefully will catch you playing somewhere soon or, as I have said, my door is always open.

Thanks again to everybody. I could not have done it without you.

Red - 6-29-2006 at 06:21 AM

That is one lovely oud, and it sounds just as beautiful as it looks. I don't know much about ouds but I'm moved by music and anything thats beautiful and that oud certainly got me staring at the screen for a while.

Jonathan - 6-29-2006 at 05:50 PM

Red, you are far too kind. Thanks a lot.
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