Mike's Oud Forums

The history of the risha

Aymara - 11-20-2009 at 01:56 AM

Hi everybody,

inspired by the great efforts of JDowning regardings the history of the oud, I would like to ask, if there are also historic documentations about the risha?

Ok, it is said, that the oud was traditionally plucked with an eagle's feather, but what kind? A flying feather or a tail feather? And we can also find hints about historic rishas made from water buffalo horn.

Regarding feathers ... after giving goose feathers a try, I found out, that it helps much to give the quill's top an equal round shape with a fine file.

Might that have been done to eagle's feathers in the past too?

Many questions and a very interesting topic, isn't it?

Aymara - 11-20-2009 at 09:22 AM

Let me quote from Wikipedia:
Quote:
The Arabs traditionally used thin piece of wood as a plectrum, later replaced by the eagle's feather by Zyriab in Spain (between 822 to 857), other sources state that he is the first one to use the wooden plectrum.


As it seems, it might make sense to first do a research about Ziryab:
Quote:
Ziryab is said to have improved the Oud (or Laúd) by adding a fifth pair of strings, and using an eagle's beak or quill instead of a wooden pick. Ziryab also dyed the four string a color to symbolize the Aristotelian humors, and the fifth string to represent the soul.


The footnote for this quote points to:
Salma Khadra Jayyusi and Manuela Marin (1994), The Legacy of Muslim Spain, p. 117, Brill Publishers, ISBN 9004095993

Ararat66 - 11-20-2009 at 02:57 PM

Hi there
Quote:

Ziryab is said to have improved the Oud (or Laúd) by adding a fifth pair of strings, and using an eagle's beak or quill instead of a wooden pick. Ziryab also dyed the four string a color to symbolize the Aristotelian humors, and the fifth string to represent the soul.


I love the idea of each string having this extra meaning. I wouldn't want to overload meaning - it becomes too heady but it is interesting.

Regarding the soul ... I've been concentrating a lot recently on making each note count as if each is a piece of music in itself. It really focuses awareness and I can quite easliy see how more dimensions can be encompassed. It also gives me a route that I can pursue right now and at any time regardless to the development of technique which obviously I have to work at.

Leon

Aymara - 11-20-2009 at 03:18 PM

Hi Leon!
Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66  

I love the idea of each string having this extra meaning.


Yes me too.

Ziryab is very interesting, but it seems that it's hard to tell, what is historically correct and what is legend.

PS: HERE we find further info on the string coloration:
Quote:
Ziryab colored the highest string yellow (zir), which symbolized bile; the second highest was red (mathnd), for blood, the third white (mathlath), for phlegm, and the lowest string black (bam), for black bile. The additional fifth string, inserted by Ziryab between mathna and mathlath, symbolized the soul, since the four body humors, as he maintained, could not exist without the soul.

jdowning - 11-21-2009 at 04:28 AM

Dr. G.H. Farmer states that the 'mizrab' (plectrum) introduced by Ziryab was an eagle's talon (claw) instead of wood that was formerly used.

Concerning attributes of string colour, Farmer also notes that many of the early Arabic and Persian writers delight in these kinds of conceits and fancies - like for example if strings of sheep's gut and wolf's gut are used on an oud there will be no harmony resulting because of the natural antagonism between these two animals (when living)!

Aymara - 11-21-2009 at 01:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
Dr. G.H. Farmer states that the 'mizrab' (plectrum) introduced by Ziryab was an eagle's talon (claw) instead of wood that was formerly used.


A talon? Realy? Might that be a translation error? Because everywhere else is said, that it was an eagles feather. As I mentioned before ... what is history and what is legend?

My girlfriend has an interesting theory ... she says it might be more likely, that it was a hawk feather (talon?) instead of an eagle's one, because eagles are not common in Spain.
Quote:
... there will be no harmony resulting because of the natural antagonism between these two animals (when living)!


Might there be differences in the material itself (gut) too?

fernandraynaud - 11-22-2009 at 03:16 AM

The important thing is the flex and strength of the material, it's the same issue as on the harpsichord plectrum. Meat-eating raptors have a different molecular structure in their feathers. "Primary flight feathers" are best, and apparently they flattened big feathers and soaked them in oil to make a risha. There was a description of the process and a picture of one on the forum, much wider than a wire-tie. They didn't have cool plastics like Delrin back then:

Delrin has become an increasingly popular material for guitar picks. It has excellent durability; it is much more resistant to wear than nylon at the point of string contact, especially on round-wound strings. Delrin does not crack or break like celluloid or polyvinyl chloride (PVC), ... Delrin is also much treasured by many makers and players of harpsichords, being used for the plectra, which pluck the strings when a key is pressed. Delrin has been found to provide a tonal quality very similar to the bird-quill used in times past, while being far more durable and consistent.

The animal horn material has a slightly better "snap" and "bite", but isn't as durable or self-lubricating. Delrin is close to perfect, beats other plastics, in every way. You can spot it by the very glossy surface of the sheet material. Celcon is another brand, same stuff. There's a small contingent of harpsichordists who prefer to make plectra from crow, raven or hawk feathers, you can buy them, but the players have to oil their plectra all the time to keep them from breaking -- these guys are EXTREME.

Aymara - 11-22-2009 at 03:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Meat-eating raptors have a different molecular structure in their feathers.


Interesting hint.
Quote:
"Primary flight feathers" are best, ...


But the quills of tail feathers are thicker and should be more durable, I think ... but they are also longer.
Quote:
... and apparently they flattened big feathers and soaked them in oil to make a risha.


Aaah, interesting ... should try that with my goose feather, especially the oiling process.
Quote:
There's a small contingent of harpsichordists who prefer to make plectra from crow, raven or hawk feathers, you can buy them, but the players have to oil their plectra all the time to keep them from breaking -- these guys are EXTREME.


The harpsichord is an interesting comparison ... weren't the first harpsichord's mechanics equipped with feather quills?

jdowning - 11-22-2009 at 07:40 AM

Eagle beak, eagle talon, eagle feather etc. ? - hard to say what was meant when one does not have access to the early texts or facility in the early Arabic and Persian languages needed to read them. Most of us can only quote from secondary sources - which may or may not be correct - so best to be cautious in drawing any conclusions.

Were there eagles in Moorish 'Spain' in the 10th C. - perhaps in the mountainous northern regions? I don't know but, with well established trading routes in place pretty well any material could have been be imported if not locally available. I am not aware that 'talon' ever translates into 'feather' (in English).

Incidentally there was some discussion on the forum a year or so ago about using goose feathers for risha. I cannot find the thread but as I recall, the conclusion was that (domesticated) goose quill was too soft and that the wing feathers had to come from wild birds - the act of flying presumably making the quills tougher. So perhaps wild goose would do as well as eagle, hawk and raven/crow (for harpsichord jacks).

I am not aware of any thread on the forum that fully covers - step by step - the preparation of risha from bird quill.
If anyone has first hand experience who could post instructions - preferably with images - that would be useful information for the benefit of everyone.

Aymara - 11-22-2009 at 08:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
Eagle beak, eagle talon, eagle feather etc. ? - hard to say what was meant when one does not have access to the early texts or facility in the early Arabic and Persian languages needed to read them.


I think, if any, here was be the translation error and not in English. But who knows, maybe it's not a translation error, but in early transmission, which might have been originally only oral.
Quote:
... so best to be cautious in drawing any conclusions.


That's why we often read warnings, that it's hard to tell, which is history and which legend regarding Ziryab.
Quote:
Were there eagles in Moorish 'Spain' in the 10th C. - perhaps in the mountainous northern regions?


I found hints about eagles in the Pyrenees of today, so it's very likely, that there were eagles in 9th C. too, when Ziryab lived in Cordoba.
Quote:
I am not aware of any thread on the forum that fully covers - step by step - the preparation of risha from bird quill. If anyone has first hand experience who could post instructions - preferably with images - that would be useful information for the benefit of everyone.


I gave goose feathers a try and formed the quill's top with a fine file. I could open such a thread and do further examination, if oiling the quill has any advantages.

So far I reported about my goose feather experience only HERE.

making feather rishas

DaveH - 11-22-2009 at 10:55 AM

Hi John

I agree, there's a lot of tantalising references but nothing very comprehensive. Somebody out there must know. You probably saw this post of mine listing everything I could find on the forums.

I have a couple of Red Kite feathers marinating in olive oil at the moment. I prepared them according to what I could glean from Ronny Anderson's posts - he seems to be the main authority on the boards. He uses the Iraqi method which appears to be quite different from the Turkish one. The Iraqi method uses the pith-filled section of the feather and hardens the pith by soaking in olive oil. The turkish method, as briefly referenced by twogoodears (referring to Dmitris Rapakousis's work), appears to use the hollow, calamus section, which is bare of barbs, and to split this and flatten this out. I'd appreciate a more comprehensive description from Ronny and/or twogoodears but in the absence of that, here's a description of what I did.

I used primary wing feathers - the longest two or three at the tip of the wing. Note, Ronny in one of his posts mentions retrice feathers and implies these are synonymous with primary feathers. I think there's a mistake here. Retrice refers to the symmetrical tail feathers. Assymetrical wing feathers are referred to as remiges and the longest of these are the primaries, on the wing tips. I think it's the primaries that are usually recommended, though I do seem to remember once hearing a reference to tail feathers as well.

First I soaked the kite feathers in cetrimide disinfectant as I was a little concerned about what the Kite had died from!

Next, I cut off the barbs with a scalpel to within a couple of inches of the feather tip.

I then cut off the calamus at the point where the hollow section ends and the shaft starts to be filled with a soft, white pith, which coincided with the point where the barbs had started (not sure if pith is the technical term). You can see this point fairly easily through the translucent shaft wall. These feathers are very tough to cut across the grain, even with a substantial-sized scalpel blade. Perhaps a good sign given the intended use.

This left me with the central section of the rachis (shaft), which has a longitudinal groove down one side. I cut longitudinally up the shaft from the transverse cut, keeping the blade off centre towards the grooved side in order to leave as much as the pith as possible. This cut was gradually tapered out to leave the top of the shaft intact and about 4 inches of the pith exposed. A scalpel or a very sharp craft knife is necessary here to avoid rough splitting or tearing.

The shaft was then soaked in olive oil, where it will stay for six months to harden the pith, before being shaped. I'll report back then!

Sorry, I don't have any photos of the actual process but attached are a couple of slightly crude ones of where we're at now.



[file]12444[/file] [file]12442[/file] [file]12440[/file] [file]12446[/file]

DaveH - 11-22-2009 at 11:02 AM

PS. In playing, according to Ronny, the risha is used with the smooth side down and the pith side up, ie using the smooth rachis wall for the downstroke.

jdowning - 11-22-2009 at 01:40 PM

Sorry DaveH - I must have missed that particular interesting thread - information overload can be a problem on the forum!
It would be great if Ronny could compile a comprehensive thread on this important topic to 'start the ball rolling'.

Aymara - 11-22-2009 at 02:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
I must have missed that particular interesting thread ...


Me too ... nice tips to try out ;)

FLIPAX - 11-22-2009 at 02:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  

information overload can be a problem on the forum!
It would be great if Ronny could compile a comprehensive thread on this important topic to 'start the ball rolling'.


Amazing thread Guys!:applause:

I Hope Ronny has some time to spare.

Gracias

Philip:airguitar:

jdowning - 11-23-2009 at 05:38 AM

OK found it! The thread that I was looking for Subject:"eagle risha" was posted on this forum by azzizza on 6-20-2007 - further back in time than I remember.
Tempus fugit!

fernandraynaud - 11-23-2009 at 06:16 AM

The historical value aside, what I was LOOKING for in feather, I expected in horn, based on similarities in molecular structure and physical properties.

Yes, Aymara, of course the harpsichord was first quilled with ... quill. Quill on metal, horsehair on gut, these are rich, or as the studio kids say, Phatt sounds. Horn and feather are closely related.

I'm very happy with Cow Horn rishas, they sound good and they solve the plastic-on-plastic problem with the plain nylon strings on the top courses of the oud. I hope we do get to try some historically informed wwlprepared feather rishas, I would LOVE to be amazed, but I don't expect a giant improvement over cow horn, which is already a big step over the best plastic to date (Delrin/Celcon/Acetal).

Aymara - 11-23-2009 at 10:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
... Subject:"eagle risha" was posted on this forum by azzizza on 6-20-2007 ...


Those interested just click HERE.
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  

I'm very happy with Cow Horn rishas, ...


In the meatime I often read, that horn rishas are the best, but also that buffalo horn would be even better.

There are also infos in the eagle risha thread mentioned above.

Oh ... btw ... I found out, that the feathers I used are not goose feathers, but turkey wing feathers.

Ronny Andersson - 11-29-2009 at 02:34 AM

ok I will do some post about eagle and horn risha making.
My horn plectrums are different the ones mentioned here in recent post.
I will scan couple of old photos I have of the horn plectrum procedure and start from there. I do not have any photos of the eagle risha making but can arrange that within some time.
Also would like to say that eagle risha is not necessary better than horn risha, it is also question about different playing technique.
Nice work Dave with the quills!

Aymara - 11-29-2009 at 02:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ronny Andersson  
ok I will do some post about eagle and horn risha making.


Especially the later would be very interesting, because horn has a better availability.

And we shouldn't forget protection of species and stay away from eagle feathers.

Ronny Andersson - 11-29-2009 at 02:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
Quote: Originally posted by Ronny Andersson  
ok I will do some post about eagle and horn risha making.


Especially the later would be very interesting, because horn has a better availability.

And we shouldn't forget protection of species and stay away from eagle feathers.


Exactly but I am getting my eagle quills legally from a taxidermy studio that have old feathers.

DaveH - 11-29-2009 at 03:10 AM

Thanks Ronny. It will be really interesting to see. Info on shaping would be particularly useful for me as that's where I'll be in a few months. I'm assuming as it's less wide than a conventional risha, the style is to make it thicker (as in between the playing surfaces), but I have no idea really.

By the way Fernandraynaud, did you receive the feather you requested?

Aymara - 11-29-2009 at 03:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ronny Andersson  

Exactly but I am getting my eagle quills legally from a taxidermy studio that have old feathers.


We might also have a chance to get one from a zoo, but from my efforts in species preservation breeding regarding parrots I know, that some people are real assholes, who don't care about protection of species.

That's why I tried turkey wing feathers instead, which I bought in a handicraft work shop and I think, we should concentrate on feathers of not endangered birds instead of eagle's.

So the question is, which feathers would be a good substitute or if the horn risha wouldn't be the best choice instead.

Ronny Andersson - 11-29-2009 at 03:32 AM

Check out this recent photo shoot in Moscow :(
Sorry for the out of focus but it was a snap shot when the so-called owner of the eagle wanted money for photos.
I think the playing technique with eagle risha is dying out.
Bashirs technique is different the Nasser school and both are Iraqi.
I am looking for substitutes in some other birds quills and have tried goose,turkey and they are not suitable.

Aymara - 11-29-2009 at 04:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ronny Andersson  
Check out this recent photo shoot in Moscow :(


That's a "harmless" example of what I was trying to explain. It's a shame, how some people treat animals.
Quote:
I am looking for substitutes in some other birds quills and have tried goose, turkey and they are not suitable.


Bird of prey's feathers seem to be different in some way. It might be interesting to do some research about the how and why.

jdowning - 11-29-2009 at 05:00 PM

As far as I know, all bird species - including protected birds of prey - 'molt' every year. Their feathers wear out with use and so, naturally, once a year, the old feathers fall to the ground to be replenished with new growth feathers.
So, why kill any bird to obtain feathers, just pick up the old discarded feathers at the appropriate time of year. The flight components of the feather may be worn but the quills should be fine?

fernandraynaud - 11-30-2009 at 04:14 AM

The issue of birds of prey has been commented on a lot in relation to harpsichord. The strength of the material is especially important for the harpsichordist, who might not feel like replacing say 180 quills a couple of times a year! Meat-eaters have stronger feathers. Molecular aspects rule. The primary flight feathers are big and strong.

Let's imagine ourselves in the year 1200. What could we make a risha out of? Wood dries out and changes over time, no good. Horn & hoof might be fine but would require work with precise tools to make a thin snappy plectrum. Quills of large raptors only require pressure and soaking to make a flattened material with the right snap, elasticity, and durability. Quills were already used for pens, they were everywhere, logical to extend to making plectra for various instruments.

I would also imagine hard leather being used.

It was only when the durable plastics like Delrin and Clcon came along in the 1960s that leather was displaced on the harpsichord, where it had ruled during the "revival" of the early 20th century. Bird quill had been used before 1900, but even leather required less maintenance than quill. Quill requires frequent oilings. Oil from the player's forehead is best! Delrin was a revolution, back to the sound and feel of quill, but it lasts 20 years!

Now Delrin is universal and only the hard core authenticists use quill. Shaping each plectrum with a scalpel is work enough for a few years.

Within the harpsichord, tiny plectra of bone/horn would not last long enough, even with oilings, but out in the open on one big plectrum, it's fine.



Aymara - 11-30-2009 at 12:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
As far as I know, all bird species - including protected birds of prey - 'molt' every year.


Every spring and fall.
Quote:
The flight components of the feather may be worn but the quills should be fine?


Often the whole feather is intact.

But it wouldn't be easy to find feathers in the wild. So it might be worth to ask zoos and falconries at these times of the year.
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Quills were already used for pens, ...


Yes, usually goose feathers. BTW ... did you notice, that in many historical paintings white feathers are used as a risha?
Quote:
Oil from the player's forehead is best!


"Oil of Olaf" :D

Do you know the film Kentucky Fried Movie, where they pumped oil from the faces of young teenagers? ;)

Oil fom the human skin might be similar to that of birds?

Ronny Andersson - 11-30-2009 at 01:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
As far as I know, all bird species - including protected birds of prey - 'molt' every year. Their feathers wear out with use and so, naturally, once a year, the old feathers fall to the ground to be replenished with new growth feathers.
So, why kill any bird to obtain feathers, just pick up the old discarded feathers at the appropriate time of year. The flight components of the feather may be worn but the quills should be fine?


The problem here in Sweden is to find an eagle feather when the eagle is rare. Then, it is not a good idea to advertise for eagle feathers when it can contribute negatively to the eagle. I prefer other channels to obtain eagle feathers and buy from the taxidermist. They may have old single damaged feathers.
The problem for eagles here in Sweden is egg collectors, down from the continent and particularly German collectors. Several places where eagles have their nests are guarded during the summer.

Ronny Andersson - 12-9-2009 at 11:14 AM

Just want to update that I have not forgotten what I promised. My old photos are scanned and a small study how to make horn risha is soon online. ;)

Aymara - 12-9-2009 at 01:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ronny Andersson  
... is soon online. ;)


Thanks ... it might be nice to open a new thread and post the link here.

Sazi - 12-15-2010 at 06:38 PM

Yo Ronny, or anyone else.... I've seen a vid on youtube, but that was just finishing a horn risha, can anyone help with how to make one from scratch?

Aymara - 12-16-2010 at 10:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
can anyone help with how to make one from scratch?


We bought pieces of buffalo horn on a medieval market and my girlfriend made me a horn risha. She cutted it to 1mm with a dremel and then sanded it with sandpaper to the desired shape and thickness. At last it was oiled.

It's sooooooo great ;)