theodoropoulos - 11-20-2009 at 11:37 AM
What kind of wood do you use for bracing and for the bridge?
I have used basswood for bracing and ebony for bridge.Basswood had a good responce but ebony not.Iwonder if spruce is better from basswood...
alfaraby - 11-20-2009 at 12:50 PM
Dr. Ali Hasan, in a remarkable worksheet, taught us that it has always been recommended to use the same wood of the soundboard, for bracing. Some has
gone far beyond by saying "even from the same tree", something that cannot be afforded, as one may have realized.
Sometimes you may use cedar braces for spruce soundboards in order to increase bass tunes in a treble instrument, and sometimes you may use spruce
bracing to compensate the weakness of the cedar.
Basswood ? never heard of such bracing, sorry !
your friend
Alfaraby
theodoropoulos - 11-20-2009 at 01:16 PM
very interesting opinion about the same wood of soundboard and bracing.
As cedar concerns we have cedar of Lebanon from old houses of 200 or 300 years old.If i use it in spruce sound board would it give a bass sound in
comparison with spruce braces?Or this cedar isn't used in ouds?
jdowning - 11-20-2009 at 01:27 PM
Lute makers of the 16th/17th C cut their braces from the same material as the sound board as evidenced by the grain of the braces being transverse not
vertical - as is, apparently, the usual practice for modern ouds, guitars etc.
Ebony is not recommended as a bridge material by the early luthiers (lute and oud). Less dense (heavy), close grained woods like pear wood (stained
black) were preferred by the lute makers.
However, I have used ebony for a bridge material with some success. Perhaps, if I had used pear wood instead, the results would have been even
better?!
Cedar? Depends on what species. 200 year old Cedar of Lebanon is not the same as Western Red Cedar which is often the 'Cedar' of modern lutherie
theodoropoulos - 11-21-2009 at 03:00 AM
as far as the bridge concerns ,in my opinion the mass is very critical .If the mass of the bridge was the appropriate(not very much,not too little)
the vibarations could be transported through it.In my bridge i suppose the mass was bigger for ebony.An old man here had told me about WILD pear
wood...I will definitely use it!!
cedar of lebanon is used here in Crete for soundboard of Lyres...
http://www.nrompogianakis.com/en/3st.%20lyre.php
here is an example...I guess i won't use it.I will prefer spruce...
wood
coyootie - 11-21-2009 at 08:58 AM
I'd say, always use the same type of wood as soundboard, and if possible, from the same piece. I'm hot in the middle of building an oud right now.
There's a reason why many centuries of experience were repeated. Wood selection can be fooled with but it is often a major waste of time and expense.
I can't tell you how many new builders want to use epoxy for necks and bridges "hey it's sooooo strong, must be better than hide glue". etc.
In my opinion, based on plenty of experience building dozens of lutes , vihuelas, sitars and other strings, hide glue is unsurpassable for virtually
all parts of an oud. I use Lee Valley fish glue in a bottle after I was recommended this by Dan Hachez, a master luthier. This was one of those
priceless pieces of advice that has changed my whole way of building. The stuff performs just like hide glue ( do NOT use Franklin, it's crap) and is
way easier to use than hot glue in a pot. Hot glue cannot be replaced for some jobs though. Hide glue is almost like organic superglue, it seizes up
quickly and can last for centuries. Resin glues ( white, yellow, elmer's etc) can creep over time, and hide glue also is said to transfer vibration
best through good joints.
The orientation of the wood in braces is a big question mark though. I've seen this done either parallel to the soundboard or perpendicular.
Perpendicular will be much stiffer, but the parallel grain seems to work just fine. any observations from builders out there on how Manol, Nahat or
others did this?
On bridges, definitely don't use ebony, it's really too dense. hard walnut, beech,pear and other fruitwoods work very well.historic lutes in Europe
favored pearwood, I've used it lots. Try to find harder stuff, it can be too soft. Ouds deliver a more powerful"twang" because they're reesha - struck
strings. lutes are finger plucked and are built so lightly ( can you beleive 1+ mm soundboards?) that all the parts have to be super responsive and
sensitive.
Basswood doesn't make sense for braces,unfortunately. it's not very stiff or dense. I would say that basswood would tend to deaden tone, not what you
want at all!
My advice to all builders is not to kill yourself experimenting,or worse, re-inventing the wheel. You may find some subtle changes or choices of woods
can affect your instrument. but if you use woods that have been preferred for generations,and the other materials that have been tested and tried and
proven, you are very likely to build an instrument you'll be pleased with, and one that will do what it is supposed to do.
theodoropoulos - 11-21-2009 at 11:37 AM
A BIG THANKS!!!
Really worthy infos...
you know i am physisist and try to investigate the lutherie through scientific prisma.All your infos must be transformed to me into accoustic
theory.For me luthiers work with something that they cannot see...the sound...
all you refer about glues,bridges,braces etc help to transfer the vibrations all over the soundboard ,the best way and the invisible vibrations must
be recognized and edited by luthier in order to achieve a balanced sound...
For example..why must not we use basswood??(i will never use again but i play the devil's advocate).I wanted to "see"with luthier eyes why is it
bad...Low transfer of sound or not beautiful harmonics?You see?we must not be satisfied with a word "basswood is bad",we must know why.
Anyway,i did not use hide glue,only Titebond,but your opinion is very good.I will try it.
by the way a question..
the grains of the bridge must be vertical to the soundboard or parallel?I "see" the more clear way for the waves to pass the bridge,so i think
vertical
thanks!!
jdowning - 11-21-2009 at 02:57 PM
It is unfortunate that Cedar of Lebanon has now been brought to the edge of extinction as an endangered species and - to all intents and purposes - is
no longer commercially available as a sound board material for ouds. Bravo to those who are in a position to recycle 200 year old timbers for making
instruments.
I would be surprised if the Lee Valley 'fish glue' (a good product made from fish scraps - 'widely used for 'stick on' consumer products' - like
postage stamps, paper envelopes etc ) comes anywhere near hide glue as suitable for assembling musical instruments (Not to be confused with fish glue
(isinglass) made from the swim bladders of the sturgeon and other species of fish - which was used by luthiers in the past). Maybe the 'Lee Valley'
type of fish glue is great for sticking a paper maker's label to an oud bowl but - I would like to bet - is useless for high stress/ humidity cycle
over time applications such as for gluing bridge to sound board?
Grain direction in braces? Don't try to reinvent the wheel - just follow the centuries old practices of the ancients!
fishie glue
coyootie - 11-21-2009 at 08:39 PM
well, you've already lost the bet. I've used this stuff for years. Dan Hachez has too and he is a renowned master luthier whose basses sell for 5
figures and he has a wait list of several years for buyers.
actually on the bottle it even notes , in French and English,"ideal for antique restoration and musical instruments". Lee Valley is one of the best
mail order companies I have ever known and the quality of their tools and supplies is frankly wonderful. Ask Jameel Abraham!
hey alfaraby, can you direct us to Dr Hasan's writings?
theodoropoulos - 11-22-2009 at 12:07 AM
tell me something...if we use for example X bars pressure for Titebond with clampls ,how much must we use with Fish glue?The same or more?i used Logo
epoxy for an electric guitar Les Paul style to glue the neck to the body and with minimum pressure it glued excellent....
jdowning - 11-22-2009 at 05:55 AM
Not wishing to labour the point coyootie but can you be more specific about your use of Lee Valley fish glue in the assembly of your instruments. Do
you use it exclusively for construction of the entire instrument - particularly for joints like bridge to soundboard where the glue line is subject to
high stress and humidity cycling over time?
The current Lee Valley catalogue makes no mention of their High Tack Fish Glue being suitable for "antique restoration and musical instruments".
It would be of interest to see some test data comparing the effectiveness of Lee Valley fish glue, hide glue and other glue types for luthier work.
Agreed about Lee Valley as a company - I have been a satisfied customer of theirs for over 25 years. I have even used their fish glue - but not for
instrument work!
Be careful if you plan to use epoxy glue theordopoulos as it comes in various formulations some that set hard and others that, by design, remain
flexible once cured. 'Off the shelf' brands of epoxy could be either type. As there is no way of knowing their formulation, some pre-testing is
necessary before use. Also epoxy has a limited shelf life of about a year (as does Lee Valley fish glue if I recall correctly)
I have found, for example, that the LePage brand regular epoxy does not fully harden after curing.
glue
coyootie - 11-22-2009 at 06:52 AM
hello Theo- if you can use all-hide glue, you'd like the results I think.It's largely accepted among long time builders that hide glue-either the fish
glue I use or hot-is the champion for instruments. Resin glues are always a little gummy, hide glue is more crystalline and harder and is said to
transfer vibration better. Hide glue is also favored because you can 'reverse' it- pop open joints either with a wedge or heat and a little moisture.
. this is extremely important in lutherie beacuse sooner or later there will be need to repair something. even though we all love our instrument
creations like our children, and think they're perfect, as time passes something will need to be fixed or changed.
as far as clamping, just firm is right, no need for huge pressure.
jdowning, I'm using the Lee Valley glue for the whole enchilada.I'll guess that they may even have specs for exactly what you're wondering about.
contact them, they'll tell you if they have any specs on it for sure. all I can say is it's worked beautifully for me for a long time so I don't need
any further proof.
jdowning - 11-22-2009 at 07:59 AM
OK I will check with Lee Valley and report back.
Just for clarification coyootie you stated earlier that "Hot (hide?) glue cannot be replaced for some (instrument assembly?) jobs though". What are
the applications where there is no substitute for hot hide glue?
theodoropoulos - 11-22-2009 at 11:44 AM
my next question would be similar to Mr. jdowning's...In which applications hide glue is not reccomended?
my very big problem is the neck with body joint...Is hide glue strong enough to keep the neck in its position?
jdowning - 11-22-2009 at 12:21 PM
Hide glue is certainly strong enough for the neck to body joint which may be a dovetail joint or, in more recent times, a spline. The old lute makers
used a large headed iron nail quickly driven through the neck block into the neck after application of the glue (speed is essential). Modern lute
makers, employing slower setting glues, might use a screw in place of nails. Either way, a plain butt joint for the neck - without the additional
mechanical support of dovetail or nail - likely would not be strong enough regardless of the type of glue used.
theodoropoulos - 11-22-2009 at 12:37 PM
that's the advantage of epoxy,although there might be a relaxed joint without dovertail,it fills every gap and is super strong.but i don't know if
the vibrations are transfered with this cement-like glue..i hear luthiers here use it..
the mechanisms you refer could possibly shift the tone of the instrument ,and possibly remove bass...i dont know..