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What should I do?

Use a goose or turkey feather's quill to pick the strings

I already told you, that it rocks

But whoever wants to try it, don't harm any birds and BUY the feathers as I did (e.g. HERE) or ask the local slaughterhouse, where you might get them for free, because the sizes we're interested in can't be used for pillows and are maybe considered junk.

PS: But it is important, that the quill's top is of an equaly round shape, which I achieved with a fine file.

But I would expect, that the horn rishas, FernandRaynauld recommended will also reduce the clicking sound, depending on the shape of the risha's top.

And I can tell you ... the best way to eliminate this clicking is picking the strings with your fingers, like some folk guitarists do. A further effect of doing so is, that the oud sounds a bit more like a European lute, which you might consider a downside or even an advantage, depending on personal taste and the music you play.

FLIPAX - 11-22-2009 at 02:00 PM

Thanks Chris :applause:

All the Best,

Flip :airguitar:

And I can tell you ... the best way to eliminate this clicking is picking the strings with your fingers, like some folk guitarists do.

Yes I do Pluck it sometimes. I Use a Snap Technique Usually works Only on Wounds. I tap the whatever wound string I want To accentuate then Hit it with the direct fingernails from my 2 finger of the wrist hands.

It Sounds Like a Slap Pop from bass Playin'

Aymara - 11-22-2009 at 02:21 PM

... then Hit it with the direct fingernails from my 2 finger of the wrist hands.

Using the nails doesn't eliminate the clicking ... use the fingertips without the nails touching the string and the sound is absolutely smooth.

From what I read some Iraqi oud players use such techniques sometimes ... let me know if you should ever find a video showing this.

Quote:

It Sounds Like a Slap Pop from bass Playin'

Yes, sounds similar to slapping a bass are possible too.

Hey, the ouds traditionalists will get a stomach ache from our discussion

FLIPAX - 11-22-2009 at 02:38 PM

Using the nails doesn't eliminate the clicking ...

This is just an e.g. of an absolute insane reversal for some effect sound.

This Is Like Snapping directly downward with your 2nd finger on the string!

Hey, the ouds traditionalists will get a stomach ache from our discussion

We will revolutionize Oud Technique's"lets add shall we" LOL

There is always Medicine Tablets for stomach ache's.

BTW One More technique is I call "Scratching Claws" =
By dragging your nail like an upward pluck but intead geting caught on the pair strings. so you can hear the nails dragging the 2 string for example. Sounds like somebody just rip-off your string! hehehe

Please Ignore this message for the fainted hearts.
sorry guys this is nothing to do with the topic thread just some thoughts of mine.

Gracias

Philip :airguitar:

fernandraynaud - 11-22-2009 at 07:03 PM

You'd have to be more precise. Or provide a sound file. Different clicks, some are good.

Like some "snap" is part of the normal attack sound. If you are hitting the soundboard hard ... then don't. The risha should be an extension of the thumb. If you have 2 cm sticking out, that's a VERY long thumb, it's difficult to control, pull it back in.

But some click is useful. In the first part of the sound file you can hear the risha snapping on the soundboard to get that phonky clicky sound, in the second part the risha is just pulled in tighter so it doesn't hit the soundboard, but you still have a lot of "snap", I think that's part of the beautiful sound of an Arabic oud. The third section is just the normal picking with tremolo, you can also hear snap. Is the "clicking" you're talking about different?

[file]12450[/file]

Sazi - 11-22-2009 at 07:20 PM

Hi, is that one of your delrin risha's or a horn?

fernandraynaud - 11-22-2009 at 08:45 PM

That was cow horn, shaped the same as Delrin. Here are two A/B recordings with Cowhorn, followed by Delrin. It's very subtle, but I prefer the horn, it does sound a bit mellower, the Delrin is very clear but has some harder more "plasticky" harmonics. Sorry, recorded on my laptop, very noisy. To distinguish the "bowed edge" advantage of Cow Horn takes more specific conditions. This is all very subtle. For all practical purposes, Delrin is excellent.

[file]12451[/file]

[file]12454[/file]

[file]12452[/file]

Sazi - 11-22-2009 at 09:51 PM

Ahh, yes, I see what you mean.

I liken it to the difference between my pvc nay and the real cane one, somehow more organic sounding, richer, subtle but distinct.

Thanks for that, S.

fernandraynaud - 11-22-2009 at 09:54 PM

Get the second file I just uploaded, Saz!

Sazi - 11-22-2009 at 09:59 PM

Got it, that's the one where I could really notice the more organic sound, very nice actually, I'm going to have to get some!

FLIPAX - 11-22-2009 at 10:49 PM

Hi Tony :wavey:

and Saz

!

I will try to record. I have a HP mini Laptop. I dont know how can I record on this mic? Help needed. Does it go straight to mp3?

Like some "snap" is part of the normal attack sound. If you are hitting the soundboard hard ... then don't.

About that Yes I'm not hitting the soundboard. Yes I did shorten the length of the risha maybe around .75cm to 1cm only. Its fine now.

You'd have to be more precise. Different clicks, some are good.

So what you mean is it is ok to have that "click sound" sometimes?

But some click is useful.

Does other players pull back in and out the thumb extension to have a "snap"or no "snap"?

I think that's part of the beautiful sound of an Arabic oud.

Thanks for the encouragement and Inspiration Mr Tony! :applause:

Is the "clicking" you're talking about different?

Yes thats correct this is the snap I'm Talking about. But there is also one more thing I'm getting a Small "click" I think it is something to do with the risha's angle perpendicular to the string.

When you Pluck does the risha should be perpendicular straight as to the string? all the time?

e.g.

Risha Straight Plucking(Perpendicular)
Bridge-----------------`~-------------------Pegbox

A Little angle only (Not exactly like the drawing)
Bridge-----------------\----------------------PegBox

BTW This is Not the 45 degrees angle of the wrist like Ms Marina's mention on her Instructional DVD.

Thanks For the Recorded Example's! :applause:

Shalom

Philip :airguitar:

fernandraynaud - 11-23-2009 at 01:05 AM

Philip, I'm not an instructor, all I can tell you is what works for me. This sketch shows the best angle, the red line is the string. In the other plane, looking down at the soundboard, the risha is roughly parallel to the strings, with also a small angle.

Now, if you push the risha down on a string pair, the whole face meets the first string, but point A is a little above above the string, so as you push, the string slides against the edge of the risha until it slips off point B, which is the tip of the risha, and that's the "pluck". Another way to say it is that the risha edge rides on the string until the tip plucks. Then the process repeats on the second string. A third way to look at it is that you're using the edge to automatically maintain the depth that the risha plucks at. That's why a shape like this works so well, the only part that really needs to be thin is the tip. This shape makes it much smoother than if you turned the risha up at say 60 degrees or more, and then you would have to somehow hold it and keep it at the right depth while you plucked. You'd have a heck of a time making a fast tremolo that way! You'd also almost HAVE to rest your hand on the bridge, and that kills the tone.

How much of the risha sticks out past your thumb is one way to control the plucking and the sound, you get more snap with a thin risha with more length, but you have to be careful not to hit the soundboard (not too hard anyway). Obviously some accidental contact with the soundboard is to be expected, or they wouldn't provide a pick-guard. I usually have between 0.5 cm and 2 cm of risha sticking out, depending. Rest the forearm on the edge of the oud, don't rest your wrist on the bridge. Some people play with the forearm high, others with the forearm below the midline.

If you play with the arm low, a big advantage is that you can earn spare change by playing your oud while walking about in public places, buses, trains, because you can actually hold the oud against your body that way, and play standing up, with no strap. You need a dwarf, or a little person as they are properly called, to hold the money cup and grin, while you (both) preambulate and play endless taqasim in the more uplifting of the maqamat (e.g. Rast). More complex schemes, such as the little person holding a white cane (how could YOU hold it and play?), or the little person doing "tricks", or using a guide dog, or just hanging a cardboard sign around your neck that says "BLIND", making faces and bumping into the posts on the metro as you play, are also possible. Those who cannot play should not abandon hope, as passengers have been known to drop coins in the cup, lean over and whisper "but please stop playing".

[file]12457[/file]

Horn vs Delrin risha, good recording.

fernandraynaud - 11-23-2009 at 04:33 AM

NOW you can hear it! I finally made a good short comparison recording under exactly the same conditions playing two identically shaped rishas, the first one shaped out of a MidEast Mfg. Cow Bone blank (OUDP), the second out of a MidEast Mfg. Egyptian plastic blank (OUDQ - this being Delrin, acetal). The oud is my Sukar Model 1, the strings are a Daniel Mari Turkish set. This is a very short clip, 10 seconds of each, recorded in the studio with the same excellent mics, same position, same reverb, etc., and would best be auditioned with headphones.

I've never liked the sound of plain nylon strings high up on the neck. If you listen carefully here, you can hear how the horn risha helps tame some of those twangy harmonics and adds its own subtle richness. After hearing the Cow Horn, the Delrin sounds really brash. I think this should also sound good on the floating bridge ouds that tend to accentuate the sound of the plain nylons.

Wow! [file]12465[/file]

Plus some pictures here. Grasping the risha in the palm and one possible thumb position. Different risha materials, all with the same rounded point and beveled edges. The rightmost white shovel is a Panduit nylon wire tie with a tab used to write cable info on. The leftmost is also nylon, the second from the left we call gummy-bear, I don't know the names of plastics, maybe it's vinyl, it's very soft, the next is stiffer, a bit like a collar-stay.

To shape the materials, Philip, you just use 2 grades of sandpaper and get to work, sanding away in 3 dimensions.

[file]12459[/file] [file]12461[/file] [file]12463[/file]

If you have a dog/cat and purchased a PediPaws before Billy Mays OD'd , you have a great tool for shaping rishas, and don't have to ask your family for christmas.

FLIPAX - 11-23-2009 at 05:54 AM

WOW This Is Very good Info! :bowdown:

Thanks Tony! :applause:

I really now Understand what u are trying to say here.

Tip A first then Tip B Sequentially. By this also It creates a nice drag sound.

Obviously some accidental contact with the soundboard is to be expected, or they wouldn't provide a pick-guard.

I'll keep it in mind.

If you play with the arm low, a big advantage

Yes I do Play A little low. Close to the center. but it also depends on the size of the oud. But for my Oud I play w/ low arm. and Also neck Angled down a little bit like Riyald Sunbati.

Those who cannot play should not abandon hope, as passengers have been known to drop coins in the cup, lean over and whisper "but please stop playing"

Hopefully I'm not ending up with the "but please stop playing" Level

Cheers

Flipo :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-23-2009 at 09:38 AM

I have a HP mini Laptop. I dont know how can I record on this mic? Help needed. Does it go straight to mp3?

A HP netbook should use Windows as operating system, so you can use Audacity for recording ... it's free and very powerful. Click on "Hilfe" to find the FAQ and the users manual.

Just make shure, that the microphon is activated as an input source in Windows mixer.

Regarding Tony's comparison ... it's similar between my cable tie risha and the feather. BTW ... I found out, that it's a turkey wing feather, not a goose's one.

FLIPAX - 11-23-2009 at 04:17 PM

Hi :wavey:

Tony!

NOW you can hear it! I finally made a good short comparison recording under exactly the same conditions playing two identically shaped rishas,

I really heard the difference it tames the high notes.

I've never liked the sound of plain nylon strings high up on the neck.

Now your Talking! For me It's quite different.I don't like the sound on the high if it is not clear and sharp. coz basically I hear a bit blurry on the high's and making it more clear but adding clarity and sharpness. I understand your preference here.

I have tried sanding some different shape risha's just to get a sharper sound. I use this risha if I'm playin'mostly on the higher registers just to get a good clear sound not blurry. But I cant play normal beause the sound of the risha is always sharp.

Coz it's weird for me I can Control the risha to sound sharp or fat. and usually I use the default fat sound. By tilting the risha a little bit.

Basically I pluck very soft. the only reason now why I pluck hard is I can't get enough treble my nylons are rectified Labella's and their pretty sweet and fat sounding. And by tilting the risha and Sliding from point A to point B(Drag Techinique) I get a sharper sound.

But I play all the time Loud and it ruins my dynamics. and what happens is the rectified nylons are sucking the hell out of my sustain POOF! out of the window!

)

Definetely need to change my G & C nylons.... ARRRG! :mad:

I Already change my G string to normal nylon coz the labella is so big! or Fat in diameter. And It became Better a Little bit. getting the twang on the A note.

To tell you a Little Story...... Spare Me

I really like the sound of string when you hit it soft or hard and get this twangy sound but it doesn't mean Harsh or to tinny sound or trebly. then
OOOOHHHH LA LA ......

Anouar Brahem Sweet Twang Sound. Amazing! :applause:

Coz Sometimes if I play soft I don't get that twangy sound only if I play louder. ARRRG I dont like always loud but the OUd Is Forcing me to do so.........

Well thats the story folks at least u know now a little bit of what specifically what I want sound wise............

Peace

Flipo :airguitar:

Sazi - 11-23-2009 at 06:25 PM

It seems this thread's crossed over a bit with your strings thread Flip,

Definetely need to change my G & C nylons.... ARRRG! :mad:

I know you said you didn't like them cos they were so bright, but maybe it might be a good idea to go back and try the pvf strings again?

Sounds like you want more brightness than either rectified or plain nylon can give you?

And maybe the pvf just need a little bit longer to really stretch in and settle...

Personally, since I discovered the pvf, I could not go back to nylon, and with the siverwound lute basses the balance of tone is very good across the whole range of the oud.

Cheers bro, S

fernandraynaud - 11-23-2009 at 07:41 PM

Phil, I'm not 100% clear on what you like best. You want a bright(er) twangier sound? Then you would probably like a Turkish oud rather than Arabic. If not, then an Iraqi floating bridge oud. Maybe trade with someone?

You also want as hard a fingerboard as possible, maybe coat it. The brightest sound would be from an epoxy. I forget which, but some epoxies are harder than others. I'm a little scared of epoxy because if it doesn't work out, it's only reversible by major sanding. Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) is very fast setting and easy to work with. Tung Oil is nice because it can be removed with a little work, and it's very easy to apply, though not as bright sounding, so it might not change your ebony fretboard much.

I think you might definitely want to try the PVF plain strings at the bottom of this page:

http://www.musicaravan.com/strings

For your risha, I think you DO want Delrin and not nylon or shampoo bottle plastic, and certainly not horn or feather.

You can control the tone some by shaping the risha. If you make the tip (B) more pointed and thin, you get a very different sound than if it's thicker and rounded. It's good to keep trying until you find the perfect shape(s) for you. A risha has 4 sides. I shape one end with a paper thin tip, the other with a thicker tip, and then at each end I make one side with a longer straight edge from A to B, which plays softer, and the other side with a shorter A-B straight segment, that gives you the loudest volume and works best with a steeper angle to the string. It's not practical to switch ends, but it's very easy to flip the risha over as you play, say for a louder passage. I'm not sure exactly why it is so, but if you try it you will find that the short straight segment plays louder than a longer one.

Picking near the bridge and "fretting" with your nails will also sharpen the tone, like on other string instruments.

Have fun discovering!

FLIPAX - 11-24-2009 at 05:26 AM

Hi Guys!

I'm Sorry about the off topic on the thread. Just a Quick Reply to Tony.

Phil, I'm not 100% clear on what you like best.

Sorry I got Confused by the term "Twangy" what I was reffering is the "buzz" that the trebles strings create when you hit the pair string. and I Love this sound. This is only for the treble strings not the wounds off course. nobody wants a buzzing wound strings.

I think you might definitely want to try the PVF plain strings at the bottom of this page:

http://www.musicaravan.com/strings

Thanks

I Had Already called Mr Hank last 2 days and ordered PVF Trebles from him.

Ok Lets Get Back to the topic thread...........

So what You were Saying is:

longer straight edge from A to B = plays softer

shorter Rounded a bit edge A to B = plays louder
(Works better if angled risha plucking the strings)

Thanks :applause:

BTW How do u manage to not scratch or damage the pick-guard when your "snapping clicks" of your Cow Horn Risha?

Have fun discovering!

I will.... It's a Journey like sazi said !

Cheers

Philip :airguitar:

fernandraynaud - 11-24-2009 at 12:26 PM

When there's any contact, the pickguard is exactly there to protect the soundboard. It's OK to hit it a bit, it's replaceable.

Some ouds, Sukars for instance, have more clearance between the strings and the surface. It's a matter of how the bridge is made and glued, the angle of the neck, etc.

Your original question was maybe how to avoid a sharp attack sound, so I'm confused. I think you should post some examples of what you don't like and what you do like, saying "more like this one", etc, because the terminology in English is more specific than how you are using it.

The word "twangy" for instance is onomatopoeic, normally thought of as a timbre having a lot of midrange and high frequency content with a significant initial pitch bend, much as you say the word "twang" (especially in Texas), e.g. a Fender Telecaster played with a pick through a small amp, or one of those big Gretsch hollow-bodies like the Beatles used on early songs.

The word "Buzz" is also onomatopoeic, and generally describes unwanted unpitched sound caused by strings being too low on the fingerboard. I cannot imagine what you mean by loving the "buzz" that the trebles strings create when you hit the pair string", so let's start over.

You can record in the Windows Sound Recorder (in Accessories), save as .WMA, or .MP3 if you can.

Aymara - 11-24-2009 at 01:22 PM

You can record in the Windows Sound Recorder (in Accessories), save as .WMA, or .MP3 if you can.

Easier and more comfortable would be Audacity, which I mentioned above ... just read the manual, if needed ... the handling is very intuitive and it can save in MP3, which Windows accessories can't.

Sazi - 11-24-2009 at 07:02 PM

Hey Flip, what risha are you using that gives you the clicky sound?

I just got a couple of Pyramid rishas, one is a "standard" risha the other one is a "professional" risha, and the difference between the two is very obvious...

The "standard" thin one had very loud clicky sound, but I noticed it needed a bit of tlc around the edges, after a very light sanding to round the edges a bit, (it's very thin) the clicking was better, but still there a bit...

The "professional" comes with nicely rounded edges, and has no click at all, in fact I found it a bit dull sounding, but it is much thicker, so I lightly sanded one end to somewhere in between the standard and pro thicknesses, & voila! instant perfect risha with no clicks

Take care bro, S

fernandraynaud - 11-24-2009 at 09:25 PM

Sazi, since we're getting into some subtle issues here, can YOU put up a little soundfile to illustrate the difference between the two rishas, and since the shape has as much affect as the material, maybe a couple of photos so we can see the shape? It would be nice to build up a gallery of rishas with soundfiles.

Sazi - 11-24-2009 at 09:34 PM

You're right there, they are REALLY subtle issues, and I agree, it would be really helpful to have as much info, pic's and soundfiles of each as possible, and as I wrote the post I was wishing I could put something up to illustrate the point ('scuse the pun)

but as I mentioned in another post, I have no means of recording at the moment, or even a camera, I should be able to borrow a camera but recordings are out for a while

I'll get another interface eventually...

FLIPAX - 11-25-2009 at 12:17 AM

Hey Saz and Tony!

I edited the Thread questions. I Think its Ok Now I've put also a Video.

Please Read The Beginning Post.

Thannks.

Later I will add some Pictures of the 4 Rishas I Used.

Keep Checking This POST.

BTW on the videos I'm not tapping on the soundboard like Tony said earlier to get the "snap" sound. This Is Just normal Plucked.

Cheers

Philip :buttrock:

Ararat66 - 11-25-2009 at 03:00 AM

Hi Philip

Well first of all you are doing well - you are geting some nice pace and energy and consistency going in your risha technique, particularly the triplets etc.

What would be useful would be if you could zoom out a bit so we could see the movement of your right arm - as this effects tone big-time (its not just the risha its the arm, wrist and hand too

)

BTW I liked the sound and feel of risha number 2 best !!

Cheers

Leon

Cheers

Leon

FLIPAX - 11-25-2009 at 07:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66

Hi Philip

Well first of all you are doing well - you are geting some nice pace and energy and consistency going in your risha technique, particularly the triplets etc.

Big Thanks Leon! :applause:

I'm Scared Btw Bec It was my First Video Upload in Youtube. I'm Glad You Like It! :applause:

and I was Having an headache when I record that Thing.

Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66

BTW I liked the sound and feel of risha number 2 best !!

Are u talking about the Pyramid Pro Medium Risha?

I do Like It also. Its Sounds Good and Powerful But still flexible enough to bounce back after it was plucked.

Happy Holidays & Eid Mubarak my Friend!

Cheers

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 11-26-2009 at 09:01 AM

Hi Philip,

in my oppinion the transparent risha sounds best. The lightest Pyramid is the worst.

fernandraynaud - 11-26-2009 at 01:43 PM

Hello, Philip,

All of this is very personal, but now I have a better understanding of what you are after. I think your oud has a specific sound due to the saddle on the bridge, so it sounds a bit like a floating bridge crossed with a Turkish. It seems that maybe you would prefer a deeper Arabian tone. So you have to tone down the sharpness or exchange it for another oud. I do hear the "buzzy timbre" on the nylon strings, and I'm not sure what it is, it's certainly nicer than the typical sound of nylons on a floating bridge.

As to the risha, my first impression is that the thick nylon sounds best on this oud. It also sounds like YOU like the nylon the best, but don't like getting hung up on the strings. That's easy to solve by shaping it. The sound has a lot to do with the material, but the playability has mostly to do with the shape. If you shape it the same as the Pyramids, or like what you see on my photos, so you start the tremolo with point A above the strings, it won't catch on the strings any more, and the timbre will be that of nylon, warmer and fatter than the celluloid.

There are nylon rishas in my photo below, 2 and 7 are nylon for sure, and I think the yellow number 3 is also nylon, but not certain. They are all shaped so as to tremolo smoothly. Nylon doesn't sound as good on my ouds as Delrin and horn.

If I were you, I would try cow horn as well, because it's hard to predict how it will sound, but with the right shape for your situation, probably thicker but still with sharp edges, it could work out. I think that what we hear as click with the Pyramids is a mixture of "plastic on plastic" with the actual pluck, and you might like one without the other. I don't think it's always possible to get all the best parts of the sound together, for instance you might have to accept a little less volume to get a richer timbre, but if I wasn't enchanted with the sound I got, I'd keep trying different materials and shapes, even odd things like shoe sole leather (I have seen leather plectra for harpsichords).

[file]12560[/file]

FLIPAX - 12-2-2009 at 07:36 AM

Hi! Mr Tony! :wavey:

All of this is very personal, but now I have a better understanding of what you are after.

Thanks for the understanding my friend! :applause:

I think your oud has a specific sound due to the saddle on the bridge, so it sounds a bit like a floating bridge crossed with a Turkish.

I Like How The Saddles react to the strings when u plucked it. Creating a Unique Sound I Suppose. Dont worry I Like This Sound. And It may seem to sound like a floating bridge crossed w/ a turkish due to my camera when it records it creates a treble spike on it.

I do hear the "buzzy timbre" on the nylon strings, and I'm not sure what it is, it's certainly nicer than the typical sound of nylons on a floating bridge.

Thanks

Your Advise really Helps a Lot! :bowdown:

Now I Need to order some delrin and horn rishas. Can U give me the Link where u bought your cow horn and delrin? I hope they ship here in dubai.

So far I'm Using the nylons and it sounds pretty good. Getting used to it.

Shape and Material really helps. And Finding w/c one's work for me.

I think that what we hear as click with the Pyramids is a mixture of "plastic on plastic" with the actual pluck,

I'm Trying to avoid now this material. Less plastic the better Sound.

for instance you might have to accept a little less volume to get a richer timbre,

Thanks 4 this tip.

BTW Tony did u experience changing your strings to copper bronze? Instead of silver plated? I'm just talking behalf on the wound strings?

I have tried it before on my old oud and it sounds more earthly and warmer compare to other silver plated wounds. It also eliminates a bit of scratching sound.

Any Comments on Copper Bronze wound strings? Sound? Advantages or disadvantages? Anybody?

Salamat

Philip :xtreme:

Aymara - 12-2-2009 at 08:27 AM

It also eliminates a bit of scratching sound.

For this purpose I wish flatwound instead of only roundwound strings would be available for oud, but as it seems ... no chance so far.

FLIPAX - 12-3-2009 at 05:28 PM