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coyootie - 12-5-2009 at 07:25 AM

what else- finish is French polish done with Everclear, not denatured alcohol ( poison! always best to leave toxic stuff out of your workshop and instruments!)
I'm selling this oud for $2300 + insured shipping.I'll post a soundfile of my hopeless amateur playing in the next few weeks, I want to play it in some more. Rahim did one for us and asked that it not be posted until after we play this oud in for a while, when we'll record it again and have an great way to compare the sound.

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[file]12660[/file]

Ronny Andersson - 12-5-2009 at 02:42 PM

I think you ask a bit too much for your oud. This is your first and you have built something that is an experiment between different types of ouds. Ouds with floating bridge are very delicate and difficult instrument to build.
I hope it will be a good oud, but you should wait at least six months before you sell something that is new and untried.

Sazi - 12-5-2009 at 04:29 PM

I agree with Ronny

coyootie - 12-5-2009 at 07:56 PM

I've been building renaissance lutes and vihuelas for years and have no problem standing behind my integrity and craftsmanship. did you perhaps overlook who had already played it in the previous posts???
if I was an amateur builder the price would be different. I have decades of experience doing this.I have no idea what sort of "experts" are making these comments so it's difficult for me to make any rational remarks -so I'm not going to waste my time on this. I have made and sold vihuelas to some very talented players and have never had any complaints about playability or durability.
I can see at quick glance that one of the commentators is a person with limited understanding of ouds. there is nothing inherently "delicate " about floating bridge ouds vs. glued bridge ouds. if anything floating bridge ouds are built more robustly than glued bridge ouds.there is nothing particularly difficult about the construction of an Iraqi oud either, again if anything a glued bridge is more complex. and since neither of you have played, held or heard this oud, common sense and perhaps a sense of ordinary politeness would suggest you withold judgments.I have no idea why I see so much negative communication on the internet, something about the anonymity leads people to write things they wouldn't say in person.

Aymara - 12-6-2009 at 04:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by coyootie

I have decades of experience doing this.

But in this price range you will compete with top oud luthiers like Faruk Turunz or Nazi Ghadban for example.

So time will tell, if the price is too high or not

Quote:

there is nothing inherently "delicate" about floating bridge ouds vs. glued bridge ouds.

Though I'm not an oud expert, a floating bridge needs a special (curved/convex) soundboard and a different bracing as far as I know. I would expect, that building such a soundboard is more difficult, isn't it?

Quote:

I have no idea why I see so much negative communication on the internet, ...

I don't think, that Ronny and Sazi wanted to offend you.

PS: I'm curious to hear the soundfile.

Ronny Andersson - 12-7-2009 at 07:02 AM

You have hardly acted professionally on the forum by asking a lot about the Iraqi oud design. Most luthiers that I know make a lot of researches far from any forum or build replicas of instruments.
Yes you wrote that a professional Iraqi musician liked your oud, and many instruments sounds good but it was the sound I was concerned about?
Munir Bashir liked Fawsy Munshed instruments, although they tend to have problems.
It is obvious that you do not have any experience with this type of ouds when you can draw safe conclusions already that you have succeeded but I hope you succeed in spite of your reaction.

Quote: Originally posted by coyootie

I've been building renaissance lutes and vihuelas for years and have no problem standing behind my integrity and craftsmanship. did you perhaps overlook who had already played it in the previous posts???
if I was an amateur builder the price would be different. I have decades of experience doing this.I have no idea what sort of "experts" are making these comments so it's difficult for me to make any rational remarks -so I'm not going to waste my time on this. I have made and sold vihuelas to some very talented players and have never had any complaints about playability or durability.
I can see at quick glance that one of the commentators is a person with limited understanding of ouds. there is nothing inherently "delicate " about floating bridge ouds vs. glued bridge ouds. if anything floating bridge ouds are built more robustly than glued bridge ouds.there is nothing particularly difficult about the construction of an Iraqi oud either, again if anything a glued bridge is more complex. and since neither of you have played, held or heard this oud, common sense and perhaps a sense of ordinary politeness would suggest you withold judgments.I have no idea why I see so much negative communication on the internet, something about the anonymity leads people to write things they wouldn't say in person.

Sam - 12-7-2009 at 03:48 PM

heeee 2300$$ even if the floating bridge was made of pure gold it would not worth such price

any sound files plz?

FLIPAX - 12-8-2009 at 05:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sam

heeee 2300$$ even if the floating bridge was made of pure gold it would not worth such price

Nice One Sam!

Everyone is entitled on his own opinion. To tell you honestly I don't Like how it looks floating with a round sound hole not oval and that pickguard does not amazed me. No offense Just my thoughts.

We all "mean well" here. Think its just a little pricey for a not so famous luthier. Like Fadi Matta, Faruk Turunz, Nazih Ghadban, Maurice Shehata, and the rest of the other famous one's not metioned.

BTW I Like Your Fingerboard Snake Looks Awesome! :applause:

Kindest Regards,

Philip

Aymara - 12-8-2009 at 07:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Think its just a little pricey for a not so famous luthier.

Fact is, for that price we could buy a concert oud of a famous luthier.

FLIPAX - 12-8-2009 at 12:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Fact is, for that price we could buy a concert oud of a famous luthier.

Hey Chris!

How r u my friend? :wavey:

Yeah We could have a good grand concert oud with that price.

Cheers

Flip :airguitar:

Aymara - 12-8-2009 at 01:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

How r u my friend? :wavey:

Fine, thanks ... I hope you too.

Quote:

Yeah We could have a good grand concert oud with that price.

Maybe not a grand concert, but a concert oud should be in that price range, but that also depends on the country, where the luthier lives ... Turkey for example usually is more expensive as the middle east.

FLIPAX - 12-9-2009 at 05:02 PM

bulerias1981 - 4-25-2010 at 04:04 PM

Dear coyootie,

I guess the people in this forum are a bit sensitive to what appears to them as "over pricing". 10 years ago, a very quality oud would cost $800, to $1000. Obviously the price has come up considerably from all the well known makers. Your experience making vihuelas or other early/western instruments should count. But somehow it cannot. I come from a violin making background and a good brand new violin could run you anywhere from $5000 to $10,000. But this cannot compare to the oud market, which only 10 years ago, saw prices that were a fraction of this. I guess the point is, its hard to make an oud or two and sell them for what the most established oud makers sell their ouds for. Even if it has a superior sound to theirs. It appears to be a beautiful oud, and I hope no one here discouraged you in anyway.

fernandraynaud - 4-25-2010 at 11:28 PM

Dear coyootie

I'd say the market will decide. Though in light of the fact that the market starts here, or at least passes through here like a train, it wouldn't hurt to make a good impression. Someone's first oud will be especially received with sympathy if the maker shows a little modesty.

I may be a relative novice but I can attest that it takes months of daily playing before a new oud develops it's timbre. I've never noticed it like this on other instruments. It's never certain how a new oud will turn out. This is one reason why tried and true designs are favored, and why a proven oudmaker can command a higher price.

sabbassi - 4-26-2010 at 12:49 AM

Nice Oud coyootie.
Like bulerias said , it is hard to sell (high priced) ouds without having build an historical path and reputations in the OUD world.
But who knows, you may find someone interested in your oud for that price.
keep up the good job.
Samir

Oud Freak - 4-26-2010 at 02:46 AM

Cooyootie,

I think that Mr. Andersson was very straightforward and polite with you, with no intention to offend. In your reply to him you overreacted.

Even Mr. Ghadban who is a great and experienced luthier is found somehow expensive. So I think your prices would better be reviewed.

Wish u a gd 3oud production.

OF

Luttgutt - 4-26-2010 at 03:13 AM

Hi cooyootie!

I am sure that if you stick in this forum long enough, and I hope you will, you will find out that this is a grate forum with lots of nice people, that mean well!

And we ALL welcome new members, and would MORE then welcome new makers!

But it is very difficult to disagree with all what the guys has wrote!

Just take a look at Nazih Ghadban ouds. How would YOU rank them compared to yours? (keep in mind that you only show us a picture, no sound, no video). And be your own judge.
I need to say here that Mr. Ghadban ouds can be purchased for less then 2000$.

I also need to mention that Sabbassi (one of the members here) is selling WANDERFULL ouds for around 600 euros!
Compare your oud to his! And judge for yourself (we cannot, because we cannot listen to your oud).

P.s. I don't like the way SOME makres are pushing oud prices so high up, and get good help of some rich players.

And guys,
I find it outrages that a second hand Turunz oud gets sold for 4500$ on this forum. And that NO ONE on this forum complains about THAT!
While we JUMP on this oud maker like lions!

Why this "inconsistency"!? I am just wandering :shrug:

fernandraynaud - 4-26-2010 at 04:36 AM

Well then maybe you will understand why I have argued that it's important to support the "casual players' ouds" as well as those built truly for stage/screen professionals, and not fall into a snobbish frame of mind where the use of the most exotic woods and the most perfect finish is more important than whether it plays and sounds good.

I think it's a mistake to reset the pricing and the cosmetic standards for this traditional instrument and turn it into a playground for the wealthy. Is is important to preserve the price level where ouds were sold as decent learner or family instruments, that maybe need a little touch-up to meet my (demanding) standards, like maybe a little fine sanding, some added detailing, even a new set of pegs, but are soundly built the old fashioned way with simple tools and can be had for under $300.

Let's not confuse the family type oud with decoration ouds sold in the market square. People who are just starting out likely don't need a $1000 oud. It will be a sad day when that's what it takes to buy a basic oud to play And as to the people who are regularly dealing in $1200-2500 ouds, I'm sorry, but I think most of you are confusing luxury with quality. It's not that there are no ouds worth $2500, it's just that I hope it is not yet a routine price-point.

sabbassi - 4-27-2010 at 01:21 AM

but than again, the question remain?, how to keep the prices low when the wood and other material used have raised in price. for instance, Indian Rosewood in Holland was 6000 euro a m3 and now 9000 euro. and so is Ebony.
this is an example only, if we speak about master grade sound board that are about 90 euro.
So what makes an OUD expensive. I guess not only the sound of course, but all the material used in it and who is making it.
It would be unfair if we have a well constructed OUD that meet all requirements made of beautiful wood etc..but not made by a well know luthier and expect 500 $ for it.
An Oud is not less worth it than a Brazilian Rosewood guitar that cost about 8000 $.

Aymara - 4-27-2010 at 01:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by sabbassi

... a Brazilian Rosewood guitar that cost about 8000 $.

... depending on the luthier, yes ... shocking, but true.

Yes, some woods are extremely expensive ... and they even are too cheap, if we keep the rainforest problem in mind ... so some woods are, what Tony (FernandRaynaud) called luxury. And the demand for such woods is one of the reasons for the "lungs of earth" getting smaller day by day.

If we have a look at this discussion, it might be a wise decision of new or less known luthiers to choose high quality, but not the most expensive woods, to keep selling prices as low as possible. I might also be worth a thought, to use "luxury" woods only on demand ... when a customer asks about it.

Just a thought. What do you think?

fernandraynaud - 4-27-2010 at 03:54 AM

In many ways the problem will take care of itself if people here

1- don't mock the basic oud out of existence and

2- develop and support the know-how for doing little improvements to turn a basic weekday oud into a Sunday oud for the "middle class".

Clearly luthiers with Western mortgages, tools, materials and expectations are working at a different price point. Let them - their customers are in the same league. "Good people, do make the most beautiful and most refined ouds the world has ever seen, sell them fairly to spread joy, and God be with you."

But don't you people DARE browbeat a novice into spending $1000 on an oud because "anything less is junk"! You want us to believe that the working people of Egypt and Syria have been developing their music and culture for centuries on toy instruments? I find such a stance distasteful and elitist. It puts real pressure on innocent people who are asking for your advice and who might suffer as a result, and most of all it's incorrect.

Manil - 4-27-2010 at 06:32 AM

Things have to be in context.

The Oud proposed here looks well made, the asking price in my opinion is high, not because I doubt about coyootie abilities to make nice ouds, simply because it's his first Oud. I just posted two Altayyar Ouds for 3000$, and if I have that kind of money I personalty prefer to spend a 700$ more to get Altayyar Ouds, he is well known, his Ouds are unique, what else can I say about him?

If someone tries this oud and like it, he will be the best evaluator of coyootie work, and the reputation will start from there, but at this price range only a few professionals will take a look at this oud and as I said before spend a few $ and you'll get a concert oud from a well known maker.

that's my opinion, may be i am wrong because this oud deserves every dollar asked, but sometime you have to make a good evaluation of the context before asking for a price.

Quote:

But don't you people DARE browbeat a novice into spending $1000 on an oud because "anything less is junk"! You want us to believe that the working people of Egypt and Syria have been developing their music and culture for centuries on toy instruments? I find such a stance distasteful and elitist. It puts real pressure on innocent people who are asking for your advice and who might suffer as a result, and most of all it's wrong.

This is so true, I was in that position and I started with a 200$ oud to get started, when I was realy into oud I spent the right price for MY oud, and I don't regret my way of doing it, and I give the same advice to all beginners, try the Oud, fell in love with it and then spend the extra money to get a nice one.

Cheers

Luttgutt - 4-28-2010 at 07:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Well then maybe you will understand why I have argued that it's important to support the "casual players' ouds" ....

Sorry I have been away from this discussion. Had a litle accident...

Well, yes, I understand.
And I said many times on this forum that I don't like the way SOME Luthier are pushing the prices up in a nonreasonable way.

But you and I disagree on "what" is expensive!
You insist on 300$
While I am willing to pay around 1000$ for good ouds.
And I already have 6 such good ouds for around that price.

What you might not be aware of (being new to oud), is that people like me that have been playing oud for more then 30 years (been playing sice I was 8), have had enough of
bad pegs
bad finger boards
bad wood
bent ouds (high, and uneven action)
not well balanced ouds (even on the GOOD ouds, there was always one "bad" string...)
etc..

And I/we are very happy to see that oud makers has taken a serious step forword in Oud making!

Not many years ago it was a DREEM for me to own (even see) an excellent oud. Now I have 6 of them!!!

So no, I don't want to go back to the half OK- half bad ouds that I used to pay around 100$ for. (it is good that it is still an option. But it is EXCELLENT that I have better options).

And I want to incourige those GOOD makers that are selling at what I see as reasenable price.

But I am NOT willing to pay the "snobbish" sprices when I can get ecxellents ouds for way under 2000$.

Hope I was cleer in my formulation!

P.s. Sabbassi, I definatly did not mean you when I talked before about maker pusing the prices up!
On the contrary, I think that you are one of those makers that we should incourage!

fernandraynaud - 4-28-2010 at 07:39 PM

There are different price points that we need to encourage. We don't want the prime ouds to disappear, and we don't want the "casual player" ouds to disappear either. And when people come here as beginners, or pros, we want them to have choices and neither be pushed into something they can't afford, nor into something they won't be happy with. And this is the place to learn.

To each what we need. My position is simple. I'm not rich enough to demand of the world that my pegs never jam. But I'm perfectly happy to make small repairs! I am not rich enough to expect that every string be perfect. But I'm learning enough to fix it.

Sam - 8-27-2010 at 01:37 AM

oud makers got the right to raise up their prices but they shouldn't complain about the tone wood prices , you could get indian rose wood the highest grade for 120$ including shipping , and master grade german spruce for 100$ includin international shipping or cedar bookmatched highest grade for 60$ and exotic rare walnut for 125$

60+125= 185 $
100+120=220 $

oud makers would ask more than 1500$ for an oud with such materials!

)

SamirCanada - 8-27-2010 at 03:57 AM

I had not seen this thread but this is a topic that is very close to my heart.
At the moment, I would consider myself and aspiring oud maker (I am just 26...) and I would like to become a professional oud maker one day down the road.

Living in North America it is close to impossible to make a living out of oud luthiery. Only a hand full of makers have decided to do that and they are barely eating.

Materials are expensive: check
Tools are expensive: check (PS, fernand it is impossible to make a oud with a total of tools that are worth 300$ the most basic of bandsaws to ressaw wood is 500$)
time is expensive:

working full time a oud maker I believe can make about 10 to 15 instruments and I am inflating this number. Say he asks 3000 each instrument.
- 300 materials - cost of renting \owning shop space - cost for new tools or amortization of tools etc... lets say there is 2000$ of pure profit on each instrument
at 15 ouds a year it comes to 30000$ - income tax lets say you have 23000$ left over.

In Canada, that is called living bellow the poverty level... which means you cant own your place, cant pay every single bill, have to get in debt and basically cant eat.
thats if you are single... if you have a wife and kids. you are pretty much screwed.

So from now on, I will pay 3000$ for a oud gladly and I will still feel like I am stealing.

fernandraynaud - 8-27-2010 at 02:00 PM

This is a many-faceted and complicated issue. I don't have any quarrel with craftsmen who turn out such beautiful instruments, that are far better finished than what we typically see in the Middle East. Nor do I question economic realities. And I never suggested anything about $300 worth of tools.

But I would ask you to look at this video and explain why with the superb and more efficient tools western oudmakers have you talk about 10-15 ouds a year, when this astute and hard-working man is turning out over 500. Yes, I appreciate that he doesn't have the time to lovingly French polish each one, nor can he use the gorgeous rare woods (that were not used traditionally and are wrenched from dwindling tropical forests), but realistically I can deal with such issues, while I can't afford to pay for a man-month of detailing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsJWcgnuHGc

If a Western oudmaker can anually turn out 200 standard ouds at $500 and 10 luxury ouds at $2500, the economics look different. And it makes sense that for every 20 ouds sold to casual players, one primo instrument will be sold to a professional. As my collection grows, I may some day buy one too

But it makes no sense that everybody who takes an interest in the oud must play an instrument that consumes what are probably inordinate time and materials. What a wonderful resource it would be for players in North America to be able to count on a simple clean reliable oud with good pegs at the $500 level, instead of having to play mail-order oud lottery.

This is one more reason I respect Ibrahim Sukar. Yes, I understand his economics and scale are different. A man in Syria said he's selling over a thousand ouds a month "to the Iranians", no idea if it's true. But he started out small, he hired helpers to do the simple tasks, he turned out well-designed affordable instruments using the less expensive woods (or just what he happens to have in surplus - hint as to why some model 1s are made of 100% walnut and others half beech), and he can still turn out custom ouds for pros like LuttGutt, or ones like this:

I hope the oud finds its way into the pop mainstream. That would jump-start its presence in the West, and I for one would love it. If the numbers rise, craftsmen like you will face different questions. For now, maybe you are right to focus on the luxury market, but maybe if you can increase your efficiencies, the economics can work out better.

SamirCanada - 8-27-2010 at 02:35 PM

200 ouds in a year...

Impossible... Unless it is held together by staples...

think about it Fernand. Lets assume that a normal human being works 40 hours a week.
This is assuming your shop is super efficient and there is no tool setup to deal with and that everything goes flawless. This doesnt take in consideration glue drying times etc...

To cut all the ribs to make a oud = 1 hour
Bend 3 ribs = 1 hour x 5 (15 ribs) 5 hours
fit each rib = 1 hour x 15 = 15 hours
Join and plane the face to thickness= 1 hour
Make and glue bridge and pickguard = 2 hours
Make basic inlays cut the face and soundholes = 1 hour
Bracing the face = 2 hours
make pegbox and fit pegs = 2 hours
make and fit the neck = 2 hours
Assembly of the face = 2 hours
sanding and scraping = 2 hours
finishing = 3 - 4 hours
stringing up = 2 hours

What do you have. At the very least and in my most conservative of estimates 1 oud takes 40 hours of work to do. (in reality because I am very inefficient mine take about 20 more hours)

1 oud a week = 52 ouds a year... No vacations, no breaks, no down time....

It is impossible for 1 person to make 200 oud in 1 year working alone.

I ask that other members experienced in oud making as a hobby verify my numbers. They are very conservative.

fernandraynaud - 8-27-2010 at 04:46 PM

Dear Samir, I'm not challenging your efficiency, I have never built an oud, so mine is far lower, and I can't tell. What I was really saying is that if only it were possible, a higher output of simple ouds would resolve some of the luthier's economic problems, which are otherwise hard to solve, as well as make it much easier for people who are starting out.

I was surprised at first to hear the Egyptian say a lone worker builds 5 ouds every 3 days. Looking at him work, it doesn't seem totally out of the question, he moves like a little engine of oudmaking, if he rotates instruments as they dry, etc. Is his statement mistranslated?

SamirCanada - 8-27-2010 at 10:51 PM

Mistranslated... or inflated.
or perhaps he means the shop with the other helpers can make that amount.

either way, its held together with staples...

the other weird thing is that the bowl he is scraping in some parts of the video is waaaaayyy nicer made then some others we see him working on. Which means he probably makes some playable instruments and some wall hanging decorations.