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How to get a Echoing Oud Sound....

FLIPAX - 12-20-2009 at 05:27 AM

Hi :wavey:

I wondering how a particular oud sounded dry and some sounded with a nice reverb or echo with it?

What are the characteristics or requirements of achieving this sound.

Does it have to do with a very thin soundboard? or by a specific brace design. Coz As I check most dincer ouds sounds has a nice touch of echo already.

How do u fix your oud in order to get a more echo sound?

Please help anyone has any suggestions......

depest regards

Philip :airguitar:

fernandraynaud - 12-20-2009 at 04:10 PM

There are so many factors. The oud itself is a huge variant, but even with close mic'ing the room you record in can totally alter the sound. Of course a close-mic'ing with a single mic is deadly dry. Always use two mics onto stereo track. If you do that and LISTEN to what it's sounding like, you can make it interesting. Record in a room with a "live sound", and try close to a corner, then try other places in the room. It's mostly random, so many factors that you just have to keep trying. Processing with DSP software can be very useful.

The idea that a sound file can be "objective" is silly. At best we learn to subtract out a lot of factors. So, what exactly is your question?

David.B - 12-21-2009 at 12:10 AM

Yes, unfocused question... I guess it depends of the wood, the knowledge of the luthier, and at last resort the strings with a perfect tuning. A bad piece of wood can resonate with good strings. And if you talk about the reverb it might come from the room or the recording as Tony said.

Of course the soundboard is really important and if you're talking about the same "vibration" as Faruk Türünz, (I would say sympathetic resonance, isn't it ?) you should watch this :

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=91588284567#/video/video.php?...

The soundboard is a masterpiece and the way Faruk build this can give an idea about the physical phenomena that happen when the air moves along the soundboard.

littleseb - 12-21-2009 at 02:44 AM

....or you could just play in a deep valley. that way you wouldn't have to worry about the thickness of your soundboard, but could just sit back, play, and enjoy the echo!

David.B - 12-21-2009 at 04:12 AM

Avoid deep snowy valley, might have some interferences at this period of the year... HO HO HO !

littleseb - 12-21-2009 at 04:16 AM

.....the channel tunnel is not used at the moment, i'm sure you get a great echo in there.....sounding all the way from Dover to Calais!

Aymara - 12-21-2009 at 10:36 AM

Hi,

yes, recordings could be misleading ... but back to the original question:

My oud has such an "echoying" sound (looong sustain), but don't ask me why

The body is of indian rosewood, the (slightly shellack varnished) soundboard german spruce, the fixed bridge is of ebony, the fingerboard is of Macassar ebony and the strings are D'Addario in CFAdgc ... oh, and the soundholes are oval.

Nothing special, isn't it? Maybe it's a matter of the braces? I don't know.

Hatem_Afandi - 12-22-2009 at 07:47 AM

Hello Phil,
This a good question. I have been looking for a good answer for a while.
Here is what I was able to get so far:
David is absolutely right about the sound board and the knowledge of the luthiere. It is a question of how to place the braces , which is a trade secret for each maker, and it is also a question of how many pieces are used in the soundboard.
Based on my discussion with others, soundboard wood grain is critical. Your best bet is to get an “AAAA” grade (very small grains).
The best sounding ouds have a soundboard made up of two pieces. However, the top quality ones are usually made of a one piece top.
A floating bridge oud is usually louder with more sustain than the fixed bridge design.
I received two ouds from Samir Azar. Both are floating bridge designs. Both have rather powerful outputs to a point where I have to take it easy on the risha when I play.
Bowl effects:
Ebony bowls tend to help produce a powerful output, but the sound is yet metallic. My Maurice floating bridge oud is a good example of that.
Syrian walnut is both light and resonates in a rather sharp sound that makes it convenient to play “longa type” music.
Sysam wood is excellent for all acoustic instruments.
Indian rosewood (Sag & Pellisander ) produce very warm and deep sounds.
If you are experiencing a weak output from your oud, the easiest way out is to use an acoustic pickup and a small amplifier. I am not an expert, but I don’t think that any luthiere would come up with a trick without opening up the oud to check the bracing or even replace the soundboard!
If you are able to come up with a solution with neither using an acoustic pickup nor opening the oud, I would appreciate it if you share.
I hope this helps,
Hatem

Hatem_Afandi - 12-22-2009 at 08:07 AM

I also forgot to add another point:

I bought an oud that was really well made with a real nice, but low sound.
One observation was: The action was too high on the fingerboard side.
I took it to a local luthiere here in Houston. We ended up lowering the string holes at the bridge side by THREE MM's!!!!
The difference was like day and night!!!
The only explanation to that is: We got the strings closer to "the natural mic" which allowed more "effective resonation" of the soundboard.

Please pardon my lack of knowledge. However, this explanation use to make sense.

Hatem

Aymara - 12-22-2009 at 08:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Hatem_Afandi

If you are able to come up with a solution with neither using an acoustic pickup nor opening the oud, I would appreciate it if you share.

There is a device available called Recitalbox, which is said to be the solution. But when I read THIS description, I ask myself, if this is all fake or really true.

I don't remember who it was, but someone from the forums reported, that it works as long as the device is installed to the bridge.

Aymara - 12-22-2009 at 08:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Hatem_Afandi

We ended up lowering the string holes at the bridge side by THREE MM's!!!!

I would expect, that this improves the loudness, but the sustain? Interesting.

Sazi - 12-22-2009 at 02:01 PM

Hey Flip! The most echoey ouds I've heard, besides a good floating bridge, are the nomex sandwich tops, they're loud too!

Good luck!

norumba - 12-22-2009 at 08:32 PM

One thing that hasnt been addressed in this is technique, the physical relationship you have with the instrument.

You can vary that amount of echo , surprisingly, by just evaluating how you play: how tight you hold the oud against your body, how much surface contact with your body the oud has, back alignment and posture, breathing, how much weight in the risha arm you carry or bear down on the oud with, how close to the soundboard you hold the wrist, etc., whether you mentally approach the instrument by trying to drive the string into the soundboard versus trying to draw the sound out of the back of the oud bowl, etc...

Experimenting with all of these can make a big difference in the sound you create.

David.B - 12-23-2009 at 12:46 AM

To follow norumba's thinking :

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10167#pid68...

I'd never thought about the position where the risha plucks the strings : It can avoid some harmonic nodes and enhance the fundamental !

charlie oud - 12-23-2009 at 05:45 AM

How do you fix your oud in order to get a more echo sound?

Easy, remove the rose

FLIPAX - 12-24-2009 at 05:23 AM

Hey guys thanks for the advises.

Have been busy on work.

What I'm saying is for example I play on a dry room that doesn't have good ambience and wall reverb ping my oud still not sound dry... seem confusing

I have tried to experiment different ouds in a normal dry room. but some 1 or 2 ouds created a nice sound reverb.

I'm talking about the capabilities of your oud to some not dry even in a dry empty reverb less environment.

Thanks

I hope Its more clearer.... I'm not talking recording here or putting some echo reverb on the computer.

Natural reverb that the instrument can produce. to explained it further an oud that response and creates ambience even in a normal dry room.

This is very subtle guys. the reverb that the instrument creates is not very big.

I just notice this because I tried it on different ouds on same room, position, angle, sitting, etc... etc....

I made it consistent as I can. Same position on the room and angle etc... etc....

Thanks :airguitar:

Philip

farukturunz - 12-24-2009 at 01:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Of course the soundboard is really important and if you're talking about the same "vibration" as Faruk Türünz, (I would say sympathetic resonance, isn't it ?) you should watch this :

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=91588284567#/video/video.php?...

The soundboard is a masterpiece and the way Faruk build this can give an idea about the physical phenomena that happen when the air moves along the soundboard.

Hello all!

Though I had seen no practical solution for "adding" an echoing sound to a finished oud I wanted to share my thoughts on the "echo" in the oud sound.

Echo is a phenomenon comes into existance when there is a phase difference in two identical sound waves. It seems to me that there are two main sources for this phase difference: 1- Phase difference in the vibrating parts of the soundboard which vibrate at the same pitch, 2- Phase difference between the moments of arrival (at the sound holes) of the sound wave caused by vibrating air excited by bowl vibration and the wave caused by vibrating air excited by the soundboard.

I will try to estimate the quantity of these two differences later when I have enough time.

Best to all

Aymara - 12-24-2009 at 11:18 PM

Merry Xmas!

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz

2- Phase difference between the moments of arrival (at the sound holes) of the sound wave caused by vibrating air excited by bowl vibration and the wave caused by vibrating air excited by the soundboard.

Which shows the importance of bowl construction, used wood, it's thinkness ... and also the position of the soundholes and braces.

But I think, there's a further point:

When do we hear echoes in a room? Right, when it's empty, but the more "glossy"/smooth the floor and the walls, the more echoe we hear.

So I wonder, if it might be useful, if the bowl would be varnished from the inside, e.g. with shellack? Maybe not, but I bet, the bowl should have a very smooth surface from the inside.

David.B - 12-25-2009 at 02:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Hello Faruk,

I quoted your video because your speech is really interesting even if it's not well quoted here. By the way, I'm happy because you gave a clear description of the "echo" we're talking about. What do you think Philip ?

Thanks, I'll listen to this phenomenon carefully beside my oud...

farukturunz - 12-26-2009 at 03:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Thank you David.B

Here are the promised calculation and explanations dealing with the “echoing oud sound”

The speed of sound through spruce varies between 5000m-6000m.
All the estimated values hereby are approximate, but they can help us to create a conseption about the length of all the possible “phase differences” which we assume to take place when an oud is plucked.

In my oud models the distances between different vibrating parts on the soundboard vary from 3,5cm to 57,5cm.

Mostly what we hear is a complex sound composed of overtones which are formed one by one (amplified as a resonance) by different “vibrating parts” on the soundboard(dominantly), bowl and the neck.

The phase differences which may occur on any of my models usually are between 580microsecond and 9580microsecond.

All these assumptions are valid under the condition that the oud has been made upon a logically designed plan.

Best regards

David.B - 12-27-2009 at 01:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz

The phase differences which may occur on any of my models usually are between 580microsecond and 9580microsecond.

Thanks for your values

FLIPAX - 12-28-2009 at 09:30 PM

wowowow

dear mr faruk

i would like to have an oud customed to have a good vibrating echo sound.
so If I play in an empty reverb less room i will have still have a nice headroom and overtone.

i'm really interested on this phenomenon. do u need to have a specific design on the rossette to achive this sound?

i really happy to have your thoughts here Mr. faruk.

in the near future i will need you to make me one.

deepest regards

philip

farukturunz - 12-29-2009 at 01:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

wowowow

dear mr faruk

i would like to have an oud customed to have a good vibrating echo sound.
so If I play in an empty reverb less room i will have still have a nice headroom and overtone.

i'm really interested on this phenomenon. do u need to have a specific design on the rossette to achive this sound?

i really happy to have your thoughts here Mr. faruk.

in the near future i will need you to make me one.

deepest regards

philip

Dear FLIPAX,

The echo I have mentioned here is the oud's self behavior, not an echo heard as a reverberation coming from the environs.
Echo has nothing to do with the rosette design. The total area of the holes in the rosettes are related to the inclination of the sound either towards the bass or towards the treble side(But just slightly).
I would be more than happy for providing you with a well echoing and well vibrating oud.

Kind regards

FLIPAX - 12-31-2009 at 01:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz

I would be more than happy for providing you with a well echoing and well vibrating oud.

Kind regards

Good news! Mr Faruk.... well do in some future. I promise.

BTW If u have a longer or shorter sustain of oud does it also affects the echoing sound?

deepest thanks :bowdown:

Philip