I'm thinking to lighten an old oud I have, not the sound so bad but quite uncomfortable to play because of its weight.
First, what do you think it would cause on the sound if I lighten the bowl ? And the soundboard ?
Second, are the tools.
Shall I use a plane tool for the soundboard, or only sand paper?
For the bowl, I don't know what to use because of the convex surface. I saw on videos luthiers using a kind of blade to remove some wood. Do you know
what is this tool?
Last one, I won't sand under the fingerboard as it is extended nor under the bridge, I will not know how to fix it after.
Is it a big problem to proceed this way?
I will remove the pickguard, but don't know how to bring enough heat without risk to peel the braces under the board.
So many question to solve before beginning...
Thank you for your help.David.B - 12-21-2009 at 02:37 PM
I already sanded the fingerboard and it improved the sustain and the sound in a general way. I guess less matter we have more we touch the perfection,
after everything depends on your ability to keep your oud in one piece for a long time ! Also, I don't know if you're going to lighten it so much...
The density of the wood should be more important than its thickness, shouldn't be ? I can't help you so much but I wish you good luck. oudde - 12-22-2009 at 12:06 AM
I dont think its a good idea to modify your oud and i dont know if sanding or removing material from your oud will make any good results.
Trying to make a new one the way you like it, it would be better i think!
And most of your questions will be answered...suz_i_dil - 12-22-2009 at 10:11 AM
Thank you guys, after taking different opinion I will try to show it to a luthier, to see if it worth the work, and if it is possible for a reasonable
price.
Too difficult to do that for me.
By the way I can't to get an average for arabic oud soundboard thickness.
I checked a bit the oud project forum, and just saw a measurment for Nahat, which seems to be 1.8 mm center and going down to edge...1.3mm and event
1mm (?) on the bass edge.
Is this really possible to get a stable soundboard with such a thin board?
ANyway, as you say David, if I remove so much matter, pretty sure I would not keep it in one piece. I would just make 3 or 4 soundholes more....Aymara - 12-22-2009 at 10:22 AM
To me it's the best way to get a thick solid soundboard which is also very light ! I already handled honeycombs in aircraft industry and I can easily
understand why it's so light. I've never heard such a oud in live, but there's a really good feedback. BTW, really difficult to find someone able to
handle such a material except Faruk himself... (tu habites en France : Aquitaine ?)
PS
You should post some pics, some luthiers might have some ideas suz_i_dil - 12-22-2009 at 02:53 PM
I'm pretty sure double soundboard have a great sound, unfortunately I never tried it.
For me it only a matter of price. No way for me at the moment to put such an amount...If not that price I would have order a sandwich top for a
while.
But indeed Faruk Turunz are great, both in sound and craftmanship...don't miss to go to his workshop if one day you travel there.
Et toi David, tu es dans quel region?
Aymara, I don't know how to explain but I feel more pleasure and more comfortable to play on light ouds, like turkish for exemple.
I can get use to it anyway, the tonality is nice, but I was just wondering if I can get more resonance by lightening the board.
From a previous thread (from Edward Powell) I saw there is 2 main way of building:
1/thin soundboard and bowl to use the whole as resonance.
2/thin soundboard and thick bowl to force the whole vibration on the soundboard.
I don't know what it worth in oud building. But in both a thin soundboard shall be the choice. suz_i_dil - 12-22-2009 at 02:58 PM
Aymara
Here is the thread where the maker say he flattened the edge to 1mm: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=5816&pa...
(Post of the 3/23/2007)
I would be curious to know 2 years after if the soundboard stayed fine or if any structural problems did occured.
aytayfun - 12-22-2009 at 06:41 PM
Do not touch the soundboard. You can sand the bowl But if you are not experienced with observing the thicknes of a wood by tapping do not try this
also. Aymara - 12-23-2009 at 12:42 AM
I would be curious to know 2 years after if the soundboard stayed fine or if any structural problems did occured.
I think, that's the point ... we know it's possible, but is it really worthwhile ... might there be long term downsides?suz_i_dil - 12-23-2009 at 01:08 AM
Thank you all for your message...the more I read the more I think I won't touch anything to the board.
You enlighted me about the way to check wood thickness Aytayfun, thank you. I was really wondering how a luthier may check his work during processing.David.B - 12-23-2009 at 01:13 AM
Aymara
Here is the thread where the maker say he flattened the edge to 1mm: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=5816&pa...
(Post of the 3/23/2007)
I would be curious to know 2 years after if the soundboard stayed fine or if any structural problems did occured.
Really interesting and it confirms that I won't be able to realize such a thing (not without someone to show me). There's something contradictory : if
your oud is old it should be lighter... The only think I would try is to clean it up with a really thin sand paper, soundboard, bowl, fingerboard...
Then a really thin coat of varnish (that's why I asked for some photos, because heavy ouds use to have a thick coat of varnish...). BTW, I never do
anything on the oud without visiting Wolfang, with my oud, at Le Point d'Accroche (http://www.lepointdaccroche.com/)
He always gave to me great advices aytayfun - 12-23-2009 at 01:46 AM
David when I say old, it is not old in age, I was just meaning a not so valuable instrument, student oud, but I get something like in 2003....I'll
would never think to change anything to the board of a really old instrument!
I'll try to show the oud to Wolfgang next time I'll b in Paris.
Thank you all for your message...the more I read the more I think I won't touch anything to the board.
You enlighted me about the way to check wood thickness Aytayfun, thank you. I was really wondering how a luthier may check his work during processing.
A luthier will check progress when thicknessing a sound board using calipers and by holding the sound board up to a strong backlight to reveal thinned
areas. (To see how I do it check
page 6 of the current "Old Oud - New Project" on this forum).
A sound board thinned to 1 mm (in places) should not result in structural weakness. Old lute sound boards are usually
1.5 mm thickness or less.
The edge thickness of an oud sound board is, in effect, zero (or close to it) due to the edge banding that contributes little to the structural
strength but provides an edge weakness (by design) necessary for proper sound board vibration.
When Aytayfun mentions tapping a sound board I assume that he is referring to so called 'tap' tuning' - the final stage that some luthiers use to
judge the response of a sound board before it is glued to the bowl. Adjustments usually involve removing material from the braces although some
further localised thinning of a sound board might also be resorted to as part of the process.
The links given by Aytayfun are very interesting and well presented.suz_i_dil - 12-23-2009 at 11:00 AM
Thank you John for those precision, i refered back to your thread, indeed I missed this tool.
I'm always amazed by the precision of your works.
I didn't understood first edges were more important for resonance than structural strength.
ABout the links, the one of Ibrahim Ada really gave me the wish to try his work...jdowning - 12-23-2009 at 12:53 PM
The attached sketch - representing a section at the edge of my old Egyptian oud - might help clarify what I mean about deliberate weakening of the
edge of a sound board using banding (or binding).
The sound board thickness of this oud is a nominal 1.5 mm thick but varies in places from 1.8 mm down to 1.2 mm. However, the actual thickness is less
than this because the whole of the underside of the sound board has been finished with a toothing plane producing scored grooves in the direction of
the sound board grain. (The calipers only measure the high points not the depths of the grooves).
The structural strength of the sound board is mainly due to the braces - the edges of the braces being accurately fitted and glued to the side ribs
(very important).
The edge of the sound board of the oud has been rebated for most of the thickness and banding tiles (about 4 mm wide) glued in place - the sound board
thickness (X) under the tiles being typically less than 0.5 mm.
Initially, the tiles will provide some measure of structural support to the sound board edge, a reinforcement that will diminish as the hide glue bond
breaks down over time due to vibration, temp/humidity cycling etc. Part of the 'improvement with age' process for a musical instrument no doubt.
A similar situation applies to ouds with full depth edge banding - where the sound board edge is completely cut away (zero thickness).
Instruments like the violin weaken the sound board edge by cutting a narrow groove into which purfling is lightly glued.
[file]12974[/file]suz_i_dil - 12-24-2009 at 07:47 AM
thank you, I saw very thin band of epicea under the banding on some ouds, now I Understand better.
What do you think of this idea of sanding the board to improve resonance?
Is this a work possible (by a luthier) or does it definitely has to be done before the braces are glued and the face glued on the bowl?
Wishing you a merry christmas John! jdowning - 12-24-2009 at 08:32 AM
Thank you suz_i_dil and a merry Christmas to you too.
Sanding the sound board of a completed instrument is probably not a good idea as you cannot easily determine the thickness reduction even if you knew
where the sound board needs to be thinned (if it does need thinning).
Thicknessing of a sound board is normally done before gluing on the braces and 'tap tuning' of the sound board is done before gluing the sound board
to the bowl. Tap tuning (if you believe in it) mainly involves trimming the braces. Local thinning of the sound board in the area around the bridge is
only attempted once the bar trimming procedure fails to result in further improvement.
A chapter on how to tune a lute sound board can be found in the late Robert Lundberg's book "Historical Lute Construction" available from the Guild of
American Luthiers.aytayfun - 12-25-2009 at 01:53 AM
My historical master Manol tune the braces and face first and than glue braces to the face. As I am not experienced with tuning the braces by tapping
ı prefer to glue the braces as my knowledge (Location, thickness, weight, height, brace wood year, dentination all are important)to the face then
tap tune the completed face for sanding some parts and finaly glue the face to the bowl. (I do not glue the bigger rosette (shamsiya) untill final
preparation). Than I glue the bridge and put the strings on. I playe the oud for two or three months. Than if it needs some sanding from the face
ı sand and if it needs some brace sanding I do it from the bigger shamsiya than after two or three months (ıt depends on the woods of the
oud) I glue the bigger shamsiya. After all ı never touch to oud for any sanding. This is my method. It is just my experience. suz_i_dil - 12-28-2009 at 01:49 PM
Thank you to both for all you kind advice, you gave us many information for this subject.
Very interesting way you have Dr Tayfun...I love when the maker meet the player!
All the bestjdowning - 12-30-2009 at 07:50 AM
Interesting to see the somewhat different methods luthiers use to optimise the response of an instrument.
Perhaps I should further clarify the procedure for tap tuning (applicable to lutes) that I have briefly described.
After wood selection (sound board and braces), the soundboard is first thicknessed. The braces are then glued in place according to the required
geometry. The braces are then shaped in section and tapered at their ends. The brace ends are trimmed to be a precise fit to the edge of the bowl The
bridge is then glued in place and the edges of the sound board trimmed slightly oversize.
The assembled sound board is then 'tap tuned' by tapping the bridge, listening to the sound produced and removing material in stages from the braces
immediately above and below the bridge as necessary. Final fine tuning may be possible by removing material from the sound board around the bridge
position.
The tuned sound board is then glued to the bowl.
Some luthiers find tap tuning to be of benefit others rely just upon proper material selection and experience. Tuning is perhaps a bit of a misnomer
as the aim apparently is not to produce a sound board that 'rings' at a specified tone frequency but to remove local 'tightness' in sound 'freeing'
the sound board to resonate and respond better. Easy to say but difficult, if not impossible, for luthiers to describe their exact procedure in
sufficient detail for others to follow it would seem.
Robert Lundberg attempts to do this - what to listen for, where to remove material etc. - but I have not tried his method so cannot say if it would
work for me.
aytayfun - 12-31-2009 at 01:08 AM
Is there any body who knows about glueing sequence of the bridge. I think the last thing that old timers do is to glue the bridge. However, jdowning
and some others prefer to glue it before attaching the face to the bowl. Hımm. I'm not sure. Because the bridge is not glued simmetricaly to the
face for right handed ouds left edge is 1 mm lower than the right edge. I think Dincer concluded this in a topic.oudmaker - 1-4-2010 at 11:11 PM
Tayfun
I glue the bridge before puting the top on. Just go on a line perpendicular your centerline and position your bridge the way you like. To my opinion
it is very important to glue the on bridge right location with right posture and rigth strength.
Dinceraytayfun - 1-5-2010 at 12:05 PM
Thank you vey much Master. However, I'm not an experienced aprentice I still prefer to glue the bridge after putting the top on. When I fully learn
how to tune the face than of course I will try your way. Selametle.
