Mehran - 3-6-2010 at 08:30 AM
Hey,
Recently after trying some new ouds I noticed that the soundboards were not varnished like mine.
Does soundboard (& also fingerboard) varnish have any significant effect on sound?
In any case, without varnish is more aesthetically pleasing (tactile and visually).
Is it possible to safely remove the varnish? (e.g. sandpaper, chemical agents). Does the type of varnish is used etc.
jdowning - 3-6-2010 at 01:20 PM
Check the forum search facility. "Sound board Varnish" under "Subject Only"
"Seek and ye shall find"!!
Mehran - 3-6-2010 at 02:45 PM
Cheers
fernandraynaud - 3-7-2010 at 02:04 AM
Anything oily or viscous and flexible will dampen the sound. Brittle shellac is fine.
I got an egyptian that was gifted with most of the sins of Mohamed Ali Street, from MOP on the bowl to brushed-on varnish on the soundboard. But it
sounds great. The varnish is not THAT hard to remove, but I found that working it down to a semi-gloss thin layer with fine steel wool is a better
solution. It takes that ugly varnish down to a classy eggshell that looks and feels like French Polish (Shellac). If I had completely removed it, I
probably would have French Polish'd the face to protect it anyway, so I'm quite happy with the compromise. If you have a varnished soundboard it's an
easy first thing to try anyway. See how you like it and decide if you want to go further.
Mehran - 3-7-2010 at 09:27 AM
Taking into account the advice from other posts ive managed to find, suitable options include:
- alcohol (or stronger solvents like acetone) + soft cloth
- steel wool pad + alcohol (or other solvents)
- steel wool alone
Dr Oud in a few posts also recommends with the steel wool to use it perpendicular to the grain to prevent removing soft wood between the grain
lines.
I think I will proceed in a conservative fashion, starting with the least risky method of the soft cloth and alcohol. If this doesnt produce results i
will move onto steel wool methods.
As to how far to go down, i think ill aim to remove a substantial portion of the thickness but not to pursue a more risky complete removal. I presume
a minute residual varnish is probably better than risk taking wood away from the soundboard.
fernandraynaud - 3-8-2010 at 12:17 AM
Mehran,
If you use a solvent you are going MUCH further than if you just use fine steel wool. If you use any kind of solvent it either will be the wrong
solvent type and nothing will happen at all, or it will get sticky and you will have to deal with a major project.
What I used was something like a 000 steel wool as I recall, in circular motion without pressure. What happens is the varnish, instead of glossy and
uneven, starts to get smooth, level and eggshell semi-gloss, and a fine light colored varnish powder comes off onto the steel wool. You are not
digging into the wood at all.
I really think the circular motion steel wool is a better first try. Why? Because it will not change ANYTHING in how the next steps go if you will be
going deeper, or using solvents, yet it just may produce a finish you are happy with, at minimal effort.
If you like the general look & feel, do the whole soundboard and play it like that for a while before you decide if you will be stripping deeper.
It wasn't an earth-shattering change, but my impression was that it took a few days for a new timbre to develop.
Mehran - 3-8-2010 at 04:09 PM
An interesting thought, I admit it does seem more logical to begin with the steel pad alone.
I have some synthetic steel wool 0000 already, this stuff basically is a mesh that contains granules like sandpaper.
I think ill have to find the proper stuff, because I don't think that synthetic pads will be as good as the real steel pads.
I get my oud back Wednesday, giving me time to think and not rush anything.
fernandraynaud - 3-9-2010 at 02:57 AM
Mehran,
Here is the exact steel wool I used. I am familiar with several synthetic "plastic wools" and they are very different from metal, not recommended.
Steel wool CUTS and does not abrade. It shaves off the peaks and leaves a semi-gloss surface. Just do it slowly and lightly with a circular motion,
and you will discover the ideal pressure and motion to use. The hardest part was working around and into the "bays" of inlays.
I was about to embark on my own stripping odyssey when I read about this trick somewhere, and I was amazed at the simplicity of the method and the
resulting look and feel. I wanted to show you, but it's hard to photograph. Below you can see the texture of a typical fugly raised-grain brushwork
varnish from an e-bay wallbanger. Although the wood is different, that's about how the soundboard on my Egyptian was textured at first. On the next
image you can next get a sense of how it turned out. It's better than I ever expected. I don't know if it works as well on all varnishes, and I
certainly wish you the best results on yours.
Mehran - 3-9-2010 at 03:38 AM
Cheers - From the photo the overall finish looks nice and even, the finish im looking for :-) .The finish being uneven and shiny is the main reason im
thinking of this, if the sound opens up as well that would be an ultra bonus indeed.
Seeing as were discussing cleaning technique I might as well ask another question.
My fingerboard is also coated, but the finish quality is has become began to change in areas under the strings. The changes are purely cosmetic and
have not affected playability.
Theoretically could the same technique with steel wool be used to remove these marks? Perhaps it would require me though to remove the coat completely
necessitating an entirely new coat to the fingerboard. In any case this is just for interest in case of future need, as I said it doesn't
affect playability.
fernandraynaud - 3-9-2010 at 07:00 PM
On the fingerboard if you have varnish it cannot last. Smoothing it with steel wool doesn't help a thing. How long did it take for it to start
wearing/peeling? I guess they varnish them for looks, and it's comical.
If you have a hardwood under the varnish, like ebony, or rosewood, the varnish should just be stripped so it doesn't get in the way. But it is
extremely unlikely you have an expensive hardwood under that cheap varnish. And here is where things get tricky. A softer wood on the fingerboard will
start to wear under the strings, and this will cost you long term, as the strings will start to buzz. The area around Rast is the first to go 
A varnish offers zero protection.
A professional replaning of the fingerboard is required, say every couple of years, even on nice ouds like those cheaper Sukars that don't have high
grade ebony fingerboards. The solution (if you don't want to keep re-planing the fingerboard) is to coat it with something that is tough and can be
easily touched up so you never wear down to the wood.
There are many approaches to coating fingerboards, including epoxy, cyanoacrylate (superglue) and polymerizing oils of which Tung Oil is the best. I
use Tung Oil on fretless basses too and the stuff is almost as tough as epoxies yet has a little "give" and is very easy to touch up, just wipe on
another layer or two when you change strings, and let it set. It's not traditional on the oud, but I have had good results so far with Tung Oil, look
it up using Search in this forum. You should clean and smooth yours before applying a coating, since you have some wear. Not difficult.
Cyanoacrylate would give a brighter timbre and more sustain but is harder to work with.
I suppose a thin layer of ebony could also be glued on, but that requires raising the nut and more skill. Maybe an ebony veneer?
You could just let the cratering take its course, the way most oud players have done it, but Tung Oil is "natural" and easy, so why not have the
fingerboard last?