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Selling this oud

Arab Instrument - 3-18-2010 at 09:23 AM

Hi
Please check this oud.
Sound sample inside: http://www.arabinstruments.com/112730/Gawharet-El-Fan-Pro-Oud-CAT-1...

Manil - 3-19-2010 at 10:31 AM

Do you ship to canada?

DaveH - 3-19-2010 at 10:59 AM

I may be overreacting, but that pick guard is a very obvious imitation of a Samir Azar oud. I wonder if royalties are payed? By the way, Samir Azar makes far, far superior ouds to this and at a very reasonable price (I'm in no way connected with Mr Azar).

I also note that the music that accompanies ArabInstrument's oud tuner gimmick is from Nizar Rohana's CD Sard. Again, I wonder if royalties are paid. Somehow I suspect perhaps not.

I'm in no way intending to denigrate the ouds AI sells or his service, about which I have no idea, but I do wonder if ripping off other people's ideas should be considered as acceptable practice on this forum.

As always, caveat emptor.

Arab Instrument - 3-19-2010 at 11:22 AM

Hi
The music of the oud tuner is from "Nizar Rohana's" and has been donate by him with his permission and with his blessing.
So i think that you should check very carefully the things that come out from your words.

Yes we will ship to Canada

Thanks

DaveH - 3-19-2010 at 11:54 AM

I apologise, AI. And Samir Azar?

Arab Instrument - 3-19-2010 at 12:32 PM

I don't know who is "Samir Azar" we are selling Gawharet El Fan Ouds.

Thanks

Luttgutt - 3-19-2010 at 05:19 PM

Hi DaveH!

I guess we all see your point.
But Arab instruments are not to blame. They are just the dealers. And it looks to me that they are honest dealers. And I beleave him when he says he doesn't know who Azar is.

And they have video for ALL the ouds they are selling, with all the detailes. So one knows what one is getting.
And I believe that we need to incourage such dealers!! Don't you agree?
If anyone is to answer your question, it should be the maker, Gawharet al fan.

But again, everybody is taking ideas fra each other when it comes to designe and otherwise. I beleave this is a difficult subject.

No offence meant to anybody.

Yours
Geko

Aymara - 3-20-2010 at 02:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Arab Instrument

I don't know who is "Samir Azar" ...

Samir Azar is the most well known oud luthier in Syria besides Ibrahim Sukar as it seems and also a member of these forums, where his ouds have a very good reputation. I once had the chance to test one of his floating bridge ouds, which he built for another oud player in Germany ... and yes, this oud was of fine quality.

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

If anyone is to answer your question, it should be the maker, Gawharet al fan.

Correct.

Greg - 3-20-2010 at 04:59 AM

An interesting subject indeed. Let me play devil's advocate for a while.

Do we know for sure that the pickguard design originated with Samir Azar? It probably did, but I think one needs more than a "probably" before one can accuse someone of ripping off other peoples ideas.

It may be that Samir saw that design on someone elses instrument and liked it. Or it may be that it is his design. Even if it is his design, he would not be able to stop other people using it, unless he owns the trademark for that shape in connection with oud pickguards.

Most will be aware of the difficulty Fender has with its Telecaster and Stratocaster body shapes. They seem to have been reasonably successful in stopping other builders using their headstock design, but totally unsuccessful in stopping them using the body shape. No doubt this would have been different if they had taken out trademark protection back in the late 1940s, but they didn't.

Look at the design of electric ouds. Most use the same open frame design. Whose design was it? I have always felt that it was probably Viken Najarian. But I would not be so sure of that fact that I would accuse Ibrahim Sukar (and many others) of stealing the design.

Going back a very long time, nobody ever built an oud that didn't first see one that had been made by someone else. So what part or parts of the instrument design are sacrosanct and must not be copied by any other builder?

If the maker of this particular instrument had tried to pass it off as being made by someone other than himself, then that is fraud. But, in this case, it is my understanding that the instrument is advertised as being made by 'Gawharet El fan.'
I am not even sure that Gawharet El fan is not just a marketing company that brands and sells instruments made by several luthiers. There is even a possibility that they have commissioned Samir Azar to make some instruments for them and this is one of them.

Does anyone know?

Let's not attack folks just because they make a living re-selling ouds. There are some dishonest traders. But that doesn't mean we have a right to suspect all traders of dishonesty.

Regards,

Greg

alfaraby - 3-20-2010 at 03:20 PM

Does a pickguard design deserve any royalties ? Is it a piece of art or some kind of intellectual property ? I doubt it very much ! Any one may drew a sketch for a pickguard ? Where's the problem here ?

S. Azar , Sukkar & G. Alfann all make pickguards like others have made before & make today & there's nothing unique about their pickguards nor their ouds. They are all good enough without trying to "steal" a pattern of a screw for instance from others ...

Yours All
Alfaraby

Luttgutt - 3-20-2010 at 03:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by alfaraby

Does a pickguard design deserve any royalties ? Is it a piece of art or some kind of intellectual property ? Alfaraby

No, it is neither art når intellectual.

But in ouds, pickgards kan have the function of a LOGO, the trademark of the maker.
And in companies, if you make a logo that resambles another, you get sued!

We have had lately two such cases in Norway, actually!

And it does not help that one is not "cheating", as Greg puts is. None the less, it is still unethical, and on the boarder of being illegal (at least when it comes to big, rich companies. Not poor ones like Mr. Azar)

Stil no offence to anyone is meant.

Aymara - 3-21-2010 at 12:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

But in ouds, pickgards have the function of a LOGO, the trademark of the maker.

Really? Most pickguards look the same regarding the shape. Isn't it the rosette, that gives much more room for creativity/individuality?

But even with rosettes a luthier has "no rights", if it isn't trademarked. Or what about Faruk Turunz's double soundboard? He will need a patent to protect his rights.

The world is bad :mad:

Fact is, Arab Instruments is only a reseller, so not responsibel for such "trademark" questions.

Luttgutt - 3-21-2010 at 05:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

But in ouds, pickgards have the function of a LOGO, the trademark of the maker.

Fact is, Arab Instruments is only a reseller, so not responsibel for such "trademark" questions.

Hi Aymara!
Now I have changed my sentence to:
Pickgards KAN have the function of LOGO (among other thing too, of course. Like rosette, bridge...).

Well I have to disagree with you about the fact that "most pickguards look the same". Lots of makers can be recognized from the pickgaurd: Azar, Matta, Dimitris, Turunz, Sukar... Alomst all the famous ones actually!

And... Samir Azar does NOT have rosette. And his pickguard is quit unique I'ld say!

I know that maybe none of them have the "trademark" you are seeking. But still, I believe in a proffession like this, ethics stands stronger than "modern rules" that seems only to be able to protect the rich!!

By the way, the FIRST to make a Double sound board oud is not Mr. Turunz. It is our good friend on this Forum Jameel Khalaf!

http://www.khalafoud.com/sandwichtop.htm :bowdown:

Yours
Geko

Danielo - 3-21-2010 at 05:21 AM

Actually there's a big difference with Samir Azar's pickgard :

this one is reversed! (the widest part is incorrectly on the bass side)

But of course it can still be a nice sounding oud...

Aymara - 3-21-2010 at 06:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

..., ethics stands stronger than "modern rules" that seems only to be able to protect the rich!!

As I said before ... the world is bad ... there are only a few good guys out there. Thank god, a few are left.

But as soon as money plays a role, only those "modern rules" protect our rights ... too bad, but unfortunately a fact.

Quote:

By the way, the FIRST to make a Double sound board oud is not Mr. Turunz. It is our good friend on this Forum Jameel Khalaf!

Aah ok ... thanks for the correction.

DaveH - 3-21-2010 at 10:53 AM

Wow, didn't intend to generate quite so much comment, and yes, I was overreacting. There's obviously nothing illegal about doing this and no question of royalties.

It just gives me, to be honest, a slightly bad feeling about the seller and about this forum as a marketplace. It couldn't really be described as dishonesty but it falls short of the levels of honour (or basic knowledge, if we are to believe AI has never heard of Samir Azar) I (very naively) hope for from people who are passionate about music. But we've had that debate before and I seem to remember I was for allowing resellers to ply their trade, so I should just suck it up really, as they say.

As you were folks...