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Advice on oud buying

diane - 3-24-2010 at 03:15 AM

Hello all,
I am hoping to begin my journey with the oud soon. I hope later I will be able to make a trip to Palestine for a week or so, in the mean time I will have to begin closer to home, Wales.
So,...obtaining an oud to work with. I've seen one advertised for £80 - which was less than I expected. I will be a beginner so cannot justify magnificient oud. Though also I do not want to cause myself difficulties through purshasing a poorly made instrument.
I am hoping for advice. How do I know if it is a good oud at a good price? What are the danger/worry things to look for? I have a musical background so with a group of ouds I'm sure I can pick one I prefer, however this will not be the case...just the one oud...
Yes, it would seem wise to take an oud player with me, but those I know of are on far distant shores.
What questions should I be asking? What should I be checking for?
All inputs greatly appreciated,
With kind regards, Diane

Aymara - 3-24-2010 at 07:41 AM

Hi Diane,

have look at THIS thread as a first start for further research.

And wait for replies from the UK people in the forums

diane - 3-24-2010 at 06:49 PM

Thanks Chris, I've been learning a lot through your links, and links from links.

Kind regards, Diane

fernandraynaud - 3-24-2010 at 09:43 PM

I'm sure you will see this advice repeatedly, but here goes: try to find someone selling a Sukar for under $500 EU, as they are almost always very usable, and the cheap ones are a good deal.

Do you have a background with string instruments, like guitar, violin, etc? If so, you might be able to pick out an acceptable oud for £80. You can get a decent student oud for that much in Egypt or Syria, so with a little luck, someone might be selling one off at that price in Europe too. There's a big jump in price from a beginner's oud to really polished professionals' ouds. And with a little reading and handywork, you can improve and beautify a beginner's oud by yourself, learning a lot in the process.

Aymara - 3-25-2010 at 12:00 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by diane

..., I've been learning a lot through your links, and links from links.

Do a further search through the forums and you'll be astonished how much information you will find, be it from beginners, who were in the same situation like you or even from luthiers talking about building techniques ... the later gives more insight in what's important for the instruments quality. That's how I started research last fall.

Oh, and try to change the title of this diskussion ... put "in the UK" at the end to make the UK people take a look.

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

... try to find someone selling a Sukar for under $500 EU ...

Yes, Shukar Ouds is a good advice ... Model 1 is a good beginner model for a average price of 400$.

Quote:

If so, you might be able to pick out an acceptable oud for £80.

Sorry, but I doubt that ... chances are very high, that such an oud leeds to frustration instead of fun. It's similar to guitars ... many students who start with a very cheap instrument give up learning because of too much frustration.

Diane, look at Falcony's hassle and you'll know, what I mean.

Wait longer, spare more money and get a nice instrument ... the oud is a "magical" instrument, but you won't notice that and won't get drawn into this "magical world", if you buy a lemon.

Quote:

There's a big jump in price from a beginner's oud to really polished professionals' ouds.

Yes, and once she is willing and able to buy a high quality oud ... there's Michael Moussa in the UK

fernandraynaud - 3-25-2010 at 04:32 AM

Chris, you and I have an ongoing disagreement. At least we agree now that a Model 1 Sukar is good and costs less than $400.

It's all a question of what the user is able to do. I see ouds on e-bay and in private hands that are basic ouds like a typical oudmaker in Egypt turns 5 of out in 3 days. These CAN be acquired for 80 quid with some luck, as they sell for far less than that in Egypt. If the user can distinguish a true lemon from a decent instrument, that's a good start. If the user can then put a little work into it, fix little problems, polish it up, they will be rewarded with a first oud that is good enough to get started, appreciate the music, and learn what they want in their next oud.

If Diane is able and willing, to spend more money, then by all means, Diane, we know it's safer to get a more expensive instrument, especially if you can't do fixup work yourself. But if you can't spend over 500 Euros, you scan still get a decent oud, you just have to work harder: learn, and do a little touch up work perhaps.

Chris, telling people they SHOULD/MUST spend well over 500 Euros to have a usable learner's oud is a disservice, because a lot of people these days cannot spend that kind of money, and it's not accurate anyway.

First, some people work out good deals. My first 3 ouds cost me a total of about $600, that includes the Sukar Model 1 and the Egyptian you liked the timbre of so much.

Second, we keep seeing people here who have obtained an oud very cheaply, and by the time we see photos we are surprised to find that the ouds looks OK, but the owner has been browbeaten, and keeps repeating the oud is junk, and THAT's not conducive to enjoyment and learning either! For instance they complain that the pegs have to be pushed in to hold tuning, and they don't know yet that pegs have to be pushed in during tuning on ALL ouds. Or they don't know that strings take a good while to stop stretching, and that weather changes cause tuning to slip, or they don't know that almost ALL good oud soundboards are untreated wood, or that many excellent Egyptian ouds look less refined in their finish than sonically inferior Turkish ouds, etc etc. The result of telling people they need to get a "superior" oud is that beginners who have an opportunity to get an inexpensive decent oud get confused and discouraged.

So can we agree that, although it also requires some luck, people who are willing to work a little harder at it CAN get a decent learner's oud sometimes quite inexpensively?

Aymara - 3-25-2010 at 04:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

So can we agree that, although it also requires some luck, ...

Luck, yes, and craftsmanship ... but how many beginners have that or are willing to?

BTW ... do you know, where Diane can get a Model 1 for less than 400$? I think, that's not an easy task for Europeans, but maybe I'm wrong.

I hope the UK people drop in here too ... maybe they have further ideas ... if not, they could report, how they got their first oud.

Luttgutt - 3-25-2010 at 05:14 AM

Hi guys!
Allow me to jump into this discution!

I kind of agree with both! Here are my thought:

1- YES, Sukar model1 is good for the price. BUT Sukar advenced models are even BETTER FOR THE price!
I have the feeling that you, Fernand have never tried one :rolleyes:

. .Have you?

2- It is TRUE that a cheeper oud CAN BECOME as good as the more expensive. But:

a- At what cost? I have DESTROYD 3 of my ouds by trying to improve them! Now that I know what to do, I still have problem perchase the material I need. And I use lots of time and money. And yesterday, I cut my finger badly "fixing" my oud (driven by curiousity, the the love of oud

) But not everybody have the skills, the time, the know how, and the MONEY to do this!!

b- we have to get LUCKY! I have played oud for 30 years, and NEVER seen a oud that cost $80!! I would love to see that

So the way I see it both Fernands and Aymaras tips are excellent tips. It all depends on WhO you are, What you want, How lucky you are etc...

Good luck with your quest

P.s. Fernand, Pushing the pegs is not a FACT for ALL ouds!
Only once in a blue moon I need to "push" down a peg. And that applies to ALL the ouds I owned after 1999!

fernandraynaud - 3-25-2010 at 06:00 AM

Hi, Lutt,

Sorry to hear about your finger!

The price she mentioned was 80 Sterling, that's more like $150, and that's a plausible price for someone's forgotten oud. Like there's one for sale on e-bay that the seller is pretty sure is a Scottish guitar, though he's hoping for more than $150.

I played one of the more expensive Sukars, a model 202 (?). Yes they are great. But I have never played an oud where if you made a big jump in tuning you didn't have to keep inward pressure with a finger on the tuning pegs. Do you have ouds where you can freely tune up and down all you want and somehow the pegs don't work their way outward? Can you explain how that works?

And I'm a believer in minimalism. I have all sorts of instruments and equipment I worked hard to get at bargain price, especially when I could not afford to do otherwise. If somebody had argued that swapping the opamps in my console was a luxury, or an expensive hobby when I got the whole (big) mixer very cheap and carted it from London to SF and I just needed to swap the chips for it to perform, I would have punched them.

We don't know Diane's situation. Let's see what she says.

Luttgutt - 3-25-2010 at 07:03 AM

SORRY! I thought it says 80$. My mistake :wavey:

Well, after I put on the strings and tune for first time, I NEVER need to turn a peg more than a half turn!! Why should you?!
P.S. Well, model1 sukar does that if I keep tuning back and forth. Then it jumps out, yes. But Why should I tune back and forth?

And my pegs DON't produce this "klick" sound I hear often on youtube when folk are tuning! If a peg does that, I put violin soap on it (is that the right name?), and the klick is over.

Totally agree with you. We don't know waht is Diane situation!
You Hvae the knowledge, the expirience, and you ARE handy (I can see that without even "knowing" you

That is why I keep on asking you for advise, and always get grate answers :bowdown:

)

But not everybody can do what you can. You'll have to acknowledge that. My 3 distroyd ouds, and now my cut finger are witnesses

My big respect :bowdown:

fernandraynaud - 3-25-2010 at 10:10 PM

The finger might be dead but the will is alive!

Even if people don't make mods, they can read and learn and shop smarter. Start out slow. And then, in time, they can start hacking instruments, dreaming ouds, looking for ouds on cragslist every day, playing oud in their heads at work, and altogether get sucked into this obsession with the rest of us.

The "tick-tick" is sometimes the wound strings' windings catching on the nut, and that's very hard to completely eliminate once you have it. Same on guitars.

My Egyptian never "ticks" because it has an interesting solution: the nut slits are so narrow, that many wound strings are captive, and as you tune, the inner core moves, but the outer layer does not. If you are way off you have to make a big adjustment (that's when you have to apply inward pressure on the peg), but then it's very smooth. "Whatever works" as they say!

Aymara - 3-26-2010 at 01:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Same on guitars.

Yes ... though graphit can do wonders to this nut problem, it's sometimes impossible to eliminate without exchanging the nut.

And here we are back to the quality topic:

Some beginners ouds have flaws, that are easy to eliminate ... on others it's a hassle. The Model 1 for example has a varnished fingerboard (if I remember that correctly), which will wear off soon, look ugly then and might also cause sound problems. But this is easy to solve, as Fernand showed us HERE.

A nut exchange for example is more hassle ... you need to remove the old one, get a new one (with the same shape) and need to place the "cuts" for the strings correctly ... often a job for a luthier depending on one's own craftsmanship and available time.

But this are only examples ... there are much more potential flaws on cheap ouds.

So Luttgutt is right ... sometimes "perfecting" a cheap oud costs more money one would expect before.

But we forgot something, which is important too:

Diane, did you already find out, which oud design you like most? Turkish versus Arabic? If Arabic, which type? Fixed bridge versus floating bridge? Etc.

To find an answer to THIS question a first step might be to search Youtube for oud videos. A second step might be to visit the next UK meeting, if possible. I myself was undecided, if I would like a floating bridge or not, but when I tried one, I found out, that for me as a former guitarist, this bridge design is a no-go.

So there are more questions to answer, than price and quality, when buying the first oud.

fernandraynaud - 3-26-2010 at 04:36 AM

Of course some fixes are essential and some are preferences.

But Chris I'm serious, think about this: If I had taken the > 500 Euro rule seriously, I would never have been blessed with the oud, because I was tight on money and I didn't consider an oud a priority at that time. Capisce? It was only because when I was asking, and I got a bit of the usual "those ouds are junk", and I WAS feeling discouraged, then someone mercifully pointed me to the low cost Model 1 Sukars on e-bay. If not for that kind Samaritan, rather than developing contemplative Taqasim and Polkas in 13/5 time on this divine instrument, I might be playing country western in 3/4 in a bar in Lodi on the Sacramento delta, with drunk cowboys shooting out the lights and breaking bottles on their friends' heads. For all the people that speak up and ask, there will be more people reading our posts, seeing the > 500 Euros recommendation, and walking away shaking their heads, because they THINK they can't spend that much. Do we want to lose potential oudists, people who HAVE realized there is no limit to what they can mortgage and hock and steal and strip in order to buy ANOTHER oud?

As to fingerboards, coating the fingerboard is something I do on ANY fretless bass or oud, with the possible exception of a fingerboard made of very high quality ebony, better than what most oud-makers use. Having first done it on basses, I coat everything, I see I'm much happier with the lack of wear and better sustain. I almost coated our dog. It happens that it helps most with the soft woods used on cheaper ouds.

Nuts are rather hard to work on, but fortunately most nuts are fine as they are, even if they are ugly.

Aymara - 3-26-2010 at 04:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

..., I might be playing country western in 3/4 in a bar in Lodi on the Sacramento delta, with drunk cowboys shooting out the lights ...

You might have become famous in doing so ... lol.

Quote:

Do we want to lose potential oudists, ...

Definitely not, but I think we showed Diane, that it's some kind of tightrope walk to find the right compromise between price and quality ... I think a high price can shock as much as too low quality can lead to too much frustration.

Quote:

I almost coated our dog.

This one?

Luttgutt - 3-26-2010 at 05:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

My Egyptian never "ticks" because it has an interesting solution: the nut slits are so narrow, that many wound strings are captive, and as you tune, the inner core moves, but the outer layer does not. If you are way off you have to make a big adjustment (that's when you have to apply inward pressure on the peg), but then it's very smooth. "Whatever works" as they say!

Hmm! interristing! I thought that the nut should be fixed when this happens!!!
NO limit to what I learn on this Forum

I never thought that this is something one "wishes" to accomplish. But wodn't the wounded strings ware out fast then? How often do you change them om your egyptien oud?

P.s. I have the will (and the bleeding finger

So I am still working on my oud

So a new QUESTION: now I took away the shellac from my finger board (indian rosewood). And I put a couple layers of LEMON OIL. Can I still put Polymerized tung oil (over the lemon oil, that is)?

P.s. I am not sure that Diane is even READING all this

diane - 3-26-2010 at 01:30 PM

I am! I am! ... though haven't had a chance to read the last couple of mails. Have only had tiny windows to read them in though. When hav ea quite moment will reply I assure you :-)
My many thanks in the meantime,
Diane

diane - 3-27-2010 at 01:11 PM

Okay finally got to read all the mails. :-) Definately an arabic oud, Chris, for the bass tones. Floating bridge or not...I'm tended to say 'not' but it is with no real understanding of the difference it makes to anything - so it would be a rather pointless comment from me! I very much hope to make it up to Manchester very soon, possibly Easter weekend and I will learn much more then I'm sure with ouds to hand to properly understand.
As someone with no understanding but Vegan I would say lemon oil in place of shellac sounds a far better idea! Yeah, okay, probably don't tell me about what the strings are made of! No, really! :-)
Best wishes Diane :-)

Aymara - 3-27-2010 at 01:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by diane

..., Chris, for the bass tones.

Yes, we love it deeep

Quote:

Floating bridge or not...

... is something you should test for yourself ... some love it, some hate it.

Quote:

... I will learn much more then I'm sure with ouds to hand to properly understand.

It will open your eyes ... and ears

fernandraynaud - 3-27-2010 at 02:50 PM

Luttgutt,

That Egyptian is one reason I have respect for inexpensive ouds. Bottom line: it sounds good, it plays well, I only wish the action were a millimeter lower.

That nut would be very easy to widen the grooves on a hair, but this way works fine, the strings hold up OK. I don't KNOW if it was done on purpose, but it seems like it, the grooves are deep and narrow. I'm exaggerating when I say ONLY the inner core moves, but it seems like the outer layer moves less freely. It works better than the customary jumpy relationship between the windings and the nut, so I left it alone.

=======================

I'm pretty sure "lemon oil" is another fiction, an unknown mix of whatever the manufacturer thought could be sold to the public as "naturally nourishing the wood". You want the "tung oil" polymerizing oil mixture to penetrate so as to bond the film of polymerized oils + resins (that we are about to form) to the wood. If this "lemon oil" you put on is miscible with your polymerizing oil blend, it will at least connect. If not, the film will not bond to the fingerboard, it will "pool up". You will have to see once you obtain the "tung oil" polymerizing oil mixture. The "lemon oil" may work as a base for this "tung oil", or it might need to be cleaned up and roughed lightly with solvents and sandpaper. I rather think I would clean the hell out of it ANYWAY, enough that you can hopefully see the first layer of your polymerizing oil mix "wick up" into the wood. I would not want any chance of the film separating from the base, that's what happened to that soft varnish that was there in the first place!

======================

I think the need to use quotation marks around names of products like "tung oil" reflects a bit of tragic and widespread deception in the marketplace.

I just heard that on guitars when they say "select spruce soundboard" they mean that it's made of many "selected" pieces of spruce, not a "selected" primo variety of spruce. Not that composite materials necessarily make for bad instruments, but it's irritating and suggests a deeper lie, like when C.F Martin conceals the "wood flotsam something with photo of wood grain bonded on" that they use on some of their guitar sides/backs under an acronym.

Ironically, when such materials/issues appear on ouds, we will have a hard time deciding how to view it. There is no question that Chinese violins, guitars, etc, are bringing very good quality at very low prices to the millions. I have several Chinese instruments that I purchased and upgraded to excellent quality at unthinkably low cost. Will we rejoice at the widespread adoption of the oud, its eventual manufacturing in the Far East, or should we curse the customary BS of the marketplace?

diane - 3-27-2010 at 03:22 PM

PS My above was simply a vegan comment, not attempting to be a reference to the care of ouds. I am in no place to know :-)

Luttgutt - 3-27-2010 at 04:04 PM

Yes, I have guessed that you are lucky with your egyptian (or maybe it is more then luck. Bought it in Egypt?)

You might be right about "lemon oil", but I really don't think Jameel sells rubbish. It say it is a cleaner and conditionar :shrug:

Still hoping to find my Poly. tung oil... but anyway, I am glad I took away the shellac.

fernandraynaud - 3-27-2010 at 05:20 PM

I love that word "conditioner". It's really total BS, isn't it? Is it that your oud needs groovy waves in it like a woman's hair? It's bad enough that they sell us a dab of oil and emulsifiers and dilute them in surfactants to reduce the dryness that we just worked hard to achieve in the hair, and imply that the hair is nourished etc. Now they extend the concept to your furniture and such!!!

fernandraynaud - 3-27-2010 at 05:50 PM

Sorry this conversation between Luttgutt and me has leaked over from the topic of coating fretless fingerbaords to reduce string "gouging". Apologies. Not sure if I should delete it or what .

I have a pretty good background in Chemistry, but the more I dug into the topic of varnishes the more BS I found until I reached the point of desperation, as every definition I though real turned out not to be. For instance, I though the polymerizing oils were very distinct from varnishes. But in fact varnish is a generic term that encompasses stuff that uses polymerizing oils as a main ingredient. So there are different types of "varnish" mixtures, but they will never tell you what exactly is in them, so you could have two mixtures, one called a "tung oil" and the other a "marine varnish" and in fact they might have very similar composition. Or you might have two mixtures both called "varnish" and one be largely polyurethane in paint thinner and the other largely shellac (made from insect droppins) in alcohol! In other words these two "varnishes" are completely different from each other. One would have to spend a lot of time in the field to reach a sufficient proficiency and knowledge to be able to meaningfully navigate these available finishes.

All WE care about in fingerboard coating is that it make a hard coating that is not at all soluble in water or alcohol and with very low solubility in organic solvents, i.e. that solidifies primarily by polymerization of the oil ingredient and not by evaporation of the solvents. And we want that ability to add a little more easily as touch-up.

But even the word "solidifies" is open to many interpretations. Did you know that glass is a liquid? So how do we even TALK about such things when all the terms are complex and IN ADDITION are being changed on us in the interest of spreading confusion in order to sell more stuff?

The lemon oil stuff I have seen is mostly scented mineral oil that doesn't set at all, it makes the wood slick, ironically much like a hair conditioner. It's useful on hardwood fingerboards? keeps it from drying out and cracking, maybe, though it's not a coating.

I have this stuff called "fast-fret" that's recommended for guitar necks as it speeds up playing ?! Guess what's in it -- lightly scented mineral oil. It's nice on a rosewood or ebony fretboard, cleans and "conditions" ;-)

I would imagine that Norway has a lot of wood to finish, and would have some knowledgeable people in this area, no?

Aymara - 3-28-2010 at 01:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

It's useful on hardwood fingerboards? keeps it from drying out and cracking, maybe, though it's not a coating.

That's why many players of classical strings like violin or double bass recommend lemon oil for ebony fingerboard care. Even guitarists use it for rosewood fingerboards too.

But they also warn, that most oils are fake (mineral oil) and that you should buy the real lemon oil in a drugstore, which is expensive.

fernandraynaud - 3-28-2010 at 11:31 PM

I'm not even sure ANY lemon oil is lemon oil. We are back to the problem of false labeling. Wikipedia says:

Wood treatment - the traditional lemon oil used on the unsealed rosewood fingerboards of guitars and other stringed instruments is not made from lemons. It's a different product altogether, made from mineral oil and a solvent, usually naphtha, and got its name from its color and tart smell, and should not be confused with the corrosive oil of lemons.

Amazing ... I wouldn't put that stuff on wood to be coated with a polymerizing oil mix. But I think it comes off pretty easily. Woodwind players are graced with Almond Oil. And children with Cod Liver Oil (foooey!), though not like they were mid 20th century. And let us not forget Crude Oil, Black Gold, or everybody's headache.

fernandraynaud - 3-29-2010 at 03:06 AM

Not to beat this point to death, but one of the things that a slow economy has done is brought out inexpensive instruments out of storage. And reset prices, with Asian goods in the lead.

I just got a Spanish style guitar in large measure because of the price. I was looking for a guitar with low tension, and at $109 I couldn't resist. It is a surprisingly good instrument, made in Indonesia, the action is 3 mm, everything is fine on it, the finish is good (not very thick), the pickup is not very fancy but it works, even has a volume and tone control. It may not have the most incredible Sitka Spruce on the soundboard, but it's some kind of fir, the guitar sounds great. The fingerboard is very well done, lightly contoured, plays well enough. Even the factory strings were OK. Oh yes, I had to run a file along a few of the fret edges and adjust the truss rod. Labor: 30 minutes for now.

I disagree that someone would be "very frustrated" learning on this guitar. This is not a "luthier's" guitar, but the bar gets reset higher with more workers making better goods. The difference in an oud is that guitars benefit from an economy of scale, so that ready-made machine tuners for such a guitar are available to the makers very cheaply, and work well enough for now. One reviewer had it for 4 years before he changed the gears. The pegs on a cheap oud are poorly made and you cannot buy direct replacements; you would have to buy good Viola or Violin pegs (no problem: $15 total) but also ream new holes (cost of reamer (~$90), skill, time required). OK, learn, and save reamer for next cheap oud ;-) ?

Christian1095 - 4-6-2010 at 12:00 PM

Hey Diane, my first oud was a cheepo turist oud from Amazon... It sucked when I pulled it out of the box, but it was pretty, and I ended up giving it to my folks as a decoration and reminder of thier weirdo son who's into middle eastern music

That being said, there are good instruments out there... but one thing that hurts us as a new player is the ability to distinguish good from bad.

For very general advice...
make sure the neck and soundboard are both straight and level.... a little on the soudboard isn't the end of the world... but why buy a potential problem...
Then tap gently around the face of the oud where the face meets the body... any sort of rattle will be bad (indicates loose braces or other weird stuff)
I'd also suggest looking at the general construction of the oud... if the pegs and string holes on the bridge aren't drilled nicely or they look off (don't worry so much about the top string - it's sometimes drilled differently cause of the fat string) then I might look for something different.
Also, check out the label... if it has none, then you're probably looking for a "diamond in the rough" vs. if it does have one... maybe not a HUGE factor... but it does show pride in one's workmanship.
Finally, play the thing a bit.. bring a cheap electronic tuner and make sure it sounds pretty when tuned... Also, make sure to buy new strings... I know the Sukar ouds come with the worst strings in the world (usable only for arts and crafts projects) But if you tune it up and hit the string and you get a ton of rattle and almost no good sound, then it might be a lemon...

I'm with Chris from Germany though.... Living in the Southeastern United States, there are almost no Oudis around me... and no store carries them... so I had to order... After wasting money on an amazon.com oud, I settled on a Sukar and was extremely happy.

Cheers from the Colonies :cool:

fernandraynaud - 4-6-2010 at 06:52 PM

Diane (and other new oudomaniacs)!

This whole topic (of how to buy a first oud) I believe is THE root of the oud experience, as few of us can start out spending on a very fine instrument, yet many members here don't even want to talk about the low end. This is why Sukars are so important, being the best at a moderate price, from $400-900. I know that if I hadn't been advised on buying a Model 1 Sukar, my life would have been different. I thank you on my knees, Marina! Yes, Luttgutt you are right, the higher level Sukars are an even better deal -- once you accept spending over $600.

But what of those ouds cheaper than a Sukar Model 1? What if the applicant oudmaniac insists that even $350 is too much, and $600 is out of the question? Let's see if we can help you, without getting into details of "enhancements", or commenting on specific models we might see on e-bay or Amazon, but know nothing about.

To add to what Chris is saying, if you have previous experience with string instruments, the rough finish on low to mid-range ouds may surprise you. They are hand-made with simple tools. But this also warns you that you are entering"fixer-upper" territory. We're talking rough edges in the pegbox, uneven varnish, a bridge that seems made of driftwood, that sort of thing. You have to lay down some money to enter the "well-finished by industrial standards" category, especially for Arabic type ouds. Turkish ouds tend to be a bit better finished. So when you see "pretty rough" you have to assess the situation and decide if you are up to the challenge. If you are, you CAN extract a playable oud inexpensively. But you can also waste time and money. A non-returnable auction oud usually makes for a fern planter -- not advisable.

I have examined and played a lot of low cost ouds in the last few months, and the majority would be so discouraging to a learner as to kill their interest in a couple of weeks. It's not as simple as "you get what you pay for". There are specifically two very common problems, assuming the instrument is not falling apart and rattling, and setting aside the junk "factory" strings. Amazingly the typical softwood nut works much better than it looks.

1) The Pegs. Tuning is tricky when pegs are unevenly turned or the holes badly reamed. This is QUITE annoying but is in part correctable, or can be lived with using simple remedies. High quality pegs are available cheaply ($15 a set); installation labor costs more. To do it yourself is not hard but the specialized tools cost. I'm about to buy a reamer and a shaver, maybe just a reamer first, those bad pegs are so irritating -- and SO common.

2) The neck. This is a MAJOR problem. Oud necks, unlike guitar necks, tend to be straight, inflexible, and not adjustable. Although the neck is rigid, the soundboard and body can distort in relation to it. If you sight down the neck and the fingerboard is flat, even and level, check with a ruler that it leans back from the plane of the soundboard so that the nut end is a few millimeters "back". A better way is to take a piece of string and stretch it tight between the top of the bridge and the top of the nut. A yardstick is even better. The string/ruler should ride 0.10" to 0.20" (2.5-5 mm) above the fingerboard at the neck-body junction. Obviously it should not be contacting anywhere in between. This will give the pick enough clearance above the soundboard to play loud, and it will make installed strings (which run a little lower through holes in the bridge), sit at a good height above the fingerboard, say 2-4 mm at the neck-body junction. A height of 1/4" (6.3 mm) with the string test leads to an action over 4.5 mm, which is too high for many players.

As long as the string in the above test is not so low as to touch the fingerboard, a low action can be compensated for by tying the strings higher at the bridge. But if the action is too high, as it is on most cheap ouds, repairs are costly and/or difficult, so avoid that oud entirely. Sukar ouds are the only readily available oud that offer a neck adjustment, though a few other luthiers have designed adjustable actions in the past. This is a subject of debate. It is rejected by traditionalists, as it involves the luthier using some small metal parts, and "oud" means "wood". Tightening a butterfly nut inside a Sukar allows the user to increase the neck angle to lower the action a little; loosening raises it.

If the inexpensive oud you are examining passes the nut to bridge string test, check the pegs. The pegs can jam and squeak and look rough and hairy and need sanding as long as they seem to want to turn pretty evenly. The peg should sit in the hole so as to rub on both pegbox walls. It's a slow and tricky repair if the peg is only contacting on one wall, as filing/sanding the fatter side tends to create uneven areas.

The nut should not be held in with gobs of glue, you should be able to gently pry it out with some moist heat. Bone is nice, but wood is more common, and works OK. If the oud has bridge holes for 6 string courses but the nut only has 5 slots, you can add the slots for the top course with a little file, or if the spacing needs to be redone, sand down the top and the existing slots, shim up the nut and scribe new slots, or get a $5 bone blank from a guitar shop. The slots need not be anything more than scribed lines, just enough to keep the strings from slipping off. The strings should sit a string's thickness above the fingerboard.

Tap the bridge and try drumming on the soundboard. If you get a specific tuned drum sound, that's the main resonant node. A lot of Arabic ouds seem to work around a main bassy node. If there are strings installed and you can can tune it up and play it, play it loud and make sure nothing rattles inside. The tone will "open up" over the first weeks of playing it. It's normal for new strings to stretch; it doesn't mean the pegs are junk. If nothing is loose and you can live with the finish or know how to spiff it up, and everything so far is reasonably acceptable, you may have a gem, so you have to weigh the total expenditure. If the pegs are awful but everything else is really great, and the oud costs $200, spending $100 to have a violin shop install perfect rosewood pegs might still be worthwhile.

A Sukar Model 1 is vastly superior to the mass marketed ouds we find on the internet. Those are either decoration ouds made mostly for tourists, or commodity instruments made for students or people who play on occasion. The former are useless, but there are some OK ouds among mid-levels, including ones that aren't recognized for what they are. Around $300-$400 is the "agony zone", no point spending $350 total on a nondescript oud if you can get a Sukar, albeit an entry-level one.

Hopefully we can together build up more guidelines to help first time oud buyers in evaluating ouds they run into, so they can avoid wasting money on junk, but not reject a good opportunity just because it's being offered at a low price or has a stain, or some other non-problem. I remember one person being convinced his pegs were garbage because his strings were stretching. Some members had started him off by criticizing low cost ouds, and everything on his oud then became horrible junk.

It would be helpful to have detailed reports about the various easily recognizable Egyptian and Turkish models distributed by MidEast Manufacturing and sold by countless shops (from Santa Cruz to Paris) and via amazon etc. Someone warned about their Pakistani ones that have an integral-look rose in soundboard, like a lute, and come in a boxy hard case. I played one of their Turkish ones, I think model OUDTM, at Lark In The Morning, and it was ruined by a very high action, and overpriced. But had the action and price been lower, it would have been more than acceptable, cosmetically and sonically.

diane - 4-11-2010 at 01:12 AM

I've learnt so much guys, thank you, all. I think my first step is to meet up with some oud players and their ouds.. Which may take me a little while as it is hectic here right now. Glad that I will know what to be looking at and understanding better having already read the notes here.
Kindest regards, Diane