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Question: why would anyone want oud without adjustable neck?

fernandraynaud - 3-29-2010 at 12:24 AM

I am really puzzled. I have seen several decent ouds recently that are ruined by (only) a high action. I have been told repeatedly this is a hard (and costly) problem to fix as it usually means detaching and reattaching the neck. Since Sukar (and one other luthier) makes ouds with an adjustable neck, why would anyone make a high quality oud without such an adjustment, and why would anyone buy an expensive oud without it? Sukar's mechanism isn't even visible, uses no costly parts, and it doesn't seem to weaken the instrument at all. The other mechanism is more complicated, but it too seems all pluses. Can someone explain? Thanks.

Aymara - 3-29-2010 at 12:59 AM

Hi Tony,

how many players know, that adjustable necks are available? And how many of them really know the advantages, maybe because they know it from guitars? And how many of them might not like the ouds of these two luthiers? I don't know ... just thoughts.

And from the luthier's point of view ... how many luthiers have the knowledge to build an adjustable neck? And how many of them are willing to invest time and money in this feature, if they don't see an advantage from the economically point of view?

And then there are the traditionalists, be it players or luthiers? Remember my ideas regarding an adjustable bridge ... how many accused me wanting a guitar-oud-hybrid

I myself would like to have an adjustable neck, so maybe my next oud might be a Shukar ... we'll see, because I tend more to a custom oud in the future.

spyblaster - 3-29-2010 at 01:03 AM

well... one reason is that some people like to have their oud be made in traditional form. they cant accept new initiatives like floating bridges, plastic raqmas, added strings(bass D n high FF) and adjustable neck.

Aymara - 3-29-2010 at 01:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster

... one reason is that some people like to have their oud be made in traditional form.

I called these people traditionalists in my posting. Do you think it's the majority?

spyblaster - 3-29-2010 at 01:25 AM

well he asked why would anyone want oud without an adjustable neck

if someone knows about those necks n have the ability to buy such an oud, i dont know any other reason.
but if some one doesnt know about those necks or he/she cant buy that, he/she will have the usual neck becoz there is no other choice for him/her.

Aymara - 3-29-2010 at 01:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster

.. becoz there is no other choice for him/her.

As it was in my case.

A further thought:

I'm a fan of the long fingerboards, that end at the big soundhole. Does an adjustable neck make sence here? Because when adjusting the neck, doesn't the fingerboard get bend? That was the reason, why I was thinking of an adjustable bridge hight as an alternative.

fernandraynaud - 3-29-2010 at 01:44 AM

There are a number of great luthiers whose instruments are often discussed here, and some less known but equally good. I am thinking of ordering a custom instrument from one of them sometime in the future. But only Ibrahim Sukar and the luthier that I can't remember offer the adjustable neck.

I should add that "adjustment" is just a simple and clever way to join the neck to the body so that there is a small range of motion possible that determines the angle between the soundboard and the fretboard, so you can raise and lower the string height at the body/neck junction by a few millimeters, by turning a butterfly nut inside the bowl. The point is that this is not some complicated machine, and it doesn't change that basic construction of an oud.

Given all this, I can't imagine ordering an oud from one of the Traditionalists and know that I wll be stuck with that neck angle problem that ruins so many ouds or face an expensive repair in maybe only a year. If I put significant money into an oud without this feature, you know all that expensive woood, beautiful design, execution, finish and then WHAT? That's like knowing about the problems with aliphatic resin Carpenter Glues, accepting an instrument ( irreparably) glued with that, and knowing that if any repair is necessary, it will basically require demolishing the oud.

So what is one supposed to do? I wouldn't necessarily choose my dream oud only from Sukar's offerings, but it seems this is the only option.

alfaraby - 3-29-2010 at 01:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I have been told repeatedly this is a hard (and costly) problem to fix as it usually means detaching and reattaching the neck.

First, adjusting the action is very simple & costless. You don't have to detach the neck, it's as easy as inserting a coin in a machine, once you learn how to do that. I adjust the action myself without involving anybody .

Second, it's not advisable, as said by great luthiers, to use metal parts in building the oud. The word "oud" means wood in Arabic, so it's apparently made up of woods only, I mean the structural part, not the design part. Inserting metal parts inside the oud may also affect the sound and make it a bit artificial.

Have you ever seen a Sukkar oud detached neck ? He uses 3 thick nails and this butterfly shape screw. Once you see it you'd prefer a high action over nailing your oud.

Third, high quality oud can be built in a manner that it wouldn't change its action unless a decade has elapsed. I have a Kamil Mowais (Nazareth)1991 high quality oud that I play daily & its action stands still .

So what would you prefer, a metal nailed oud that you play & hear on daily basis, or once a decade all wood oud repaired action ?

Yours Truly
Alfaraby

spyblaster - 3-29-2010 at 01:48 AM

do u mean this?(the left instrument)

if so, ive been playing that instrument for about a year n there was no problem(its made by sukar)

Aymara - 3-29-2010 at 02:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by alfaraby

Inserting metal parts inside the oud may also affect the sound ...

Why then do we have so many people in these forums, that especially like the sound of Shukar ouds?

Quote:

Third, high quality oud can be built in a manner that it wouldn't change its action unless a decade has elapsed.

Yes, but how many of us can afford such an expensive instrument?

fernandraynaud - 3-29-2010 at 02:04 AM

No, Chris, the Sukar long fingerboard has a small space at the junction. The motion of the neck when making adjustments is so small that it looks like most fingerboards, no crevasse!

Oh and BTW, the long fingerbaords are rather loosely mounted in the soundboard. They are acoustically decoupled to a degree. You can see that in the photo along with the adjustment butterfly-nut. The whole point is so you don't mute the soundboard as you play the high notes. The floating fingerboard might be the next evolution.

Personally I don't like improvements that radically change the instrument, like saddles, floating bridge, machine-pegs(except those invisible planetaries). We know by now that the floating bridge and the saddle DO change the timbre quite a bit.

fernandraynaud - 3-29-2010 at 02:14 AM

Alfaraby, can you please tell us how to do this "simple as inserting a coin" operation? If it is as simple as that, of course it might change my mind.

But I don't think I would prefer a high action to anything, an instrument with a high action is literally unplayable.

ameer - 4-5-2010 at 10:52 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the most important component part of action (in terms of comfort) is the nut height more than the neck angle. Generally speaking the more dominant notes on an oud tend to be those closer to the nut and farther from the soundboard, making the impact of the neck angle smaller than it otherwise would be. It's not like an electric guitar for example where it can be argued that the most dominant notes are past the 12th fret if you're a lead player.

Aymara - 4-5-2010 at 11:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ameer

... the nut height more than the neck angle.

In my opinion both are important, because I myself play along the whole fingerboard, not only near the nut.

fernandraynaud - 4-5-2010 at 02:56 PM

Ameer, you are right but I wish it were enough. The nut height is easy to adjust if hide glue was used. But even for playing around "fret 7", not to speak of higher up, the bridge-side action matters to me.

AND there is another aspect: timbre. High strings make a different, shorter, more percussive sound, more like a nylon guitar. To get the best sustain and "sizzle", I need a low action and a very flat fingerboard with a hard surface. So to adjust the neck is also a way to control the tone!

Help, Alfaraby! I have an oud that I still can't decide what to do with: to glue on a higher fingerboard and nut, drill lower holes in the bridge or unglue the ring at the neck-body joint and see what hides beneath, if you are right maybe I can easily adjust the angle, and reject my heresy! Of course I would prefer 100% wood.

I am not one to reinvent the traditional oud, but I feel that a couple of metal parts buried in the neck don't bother me too much if it helps the player control important areas that otherwise cannot be changed. And it's not like we are playing Stradivari ouds made 400 years ago, and I worry the 2 nails will rust at year 357. We say "this oud plays very well" and "this one does not", but Sukar owners know they have more options.

Sazi - 4-5-2010 at 05:17 PM

Old Lutes generally had their neck attached with a (metal) screw. It should make no difference to the tone, in fact the neck should ideally be inert anyway, from an acoustics point of view, the bolt may even help, as the more solid the neck is the less chance of it robbing string energy from the soundboard.

fernandraynaud - 4-5-2010 at 06:17 PM

Interesting on old lutes. Does the bolt provide some "adjustment"?

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear on timbre. What seems to happen is that the angle at which the string is fingered against the fingerboard determines part of something we might call the "fingerboard timbre". The hardness of the fingerboard contributes another element. The nature of the strings also, like the way the texture or windings vibrate against the fingerboard.

If we take an old fashioned string bass fingered (pizzicato) at one extreme, with a short plunk sound, and the innovative sound of Jaco Pastorius' electric jazz bass at the other, we have a demonstration of "fretless timbre", where many listeners mistook his bass for a wind instrument. The rich harmonics and the very long sustain on his bass was due to the very low angle that the strings were fingered at, i.e. low action, the hard and smooth epoxy-coated neck, and the round-wound strings. The so-called "mwah" of the fretless bass, that thick timbre evolving as a note develops, is a wave that travels up and down the string causing the windings to contact the (close) fingerboard at different places. It's on the verge of "buzzing", "sizzle" is what one luthier called it. Good ouds have the same evolving rich timbre, in addition to the core tone of the bowl/soundboard, if the action is low and the fingerboard is level, hard and smooth. If these elements are missing, the timbre is vastly impoverished. The ability to adjust the "action" thus controls part of the timbre.

Sazi - 4-5-2010 at 10:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Interesting on old lutes. Does the bolt provide some "adjustment"?

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Old Lutes generally had their neck attached with a (metal) screw.

Sorry, no mention of bolts, adjustable or otherwise.

fernandraynaud - 4-5-2010 at 11:17 PM

OK, screw, sorry. Can the screw tightness ever affect the neck angle?

Sazi - 4-5-2010 at 11:29 PM

Not sure, but I don't think so.

John, jdowning, is our resident Lute expert, I'm sure he would know.