Edward Powell - 5-2-2010 at 09:28 AM
...just a quick question. I would like to hear others' experience in this regard:
Has anyone ever bought an new oud which perhaps sounds a bit metalic - - - and then over time have it warm up a lot? If yes, then how long did it
take - and can you describe it a bit?
I ask because I just put a new soundboard on my RAGMAKAMTAR (my double neck creation which is a combination of an oud and a sarod)... and it is
slightly on the metalic side. I know that to be safe I made the soundboard slightly thick (2mm), and the two braces by the bridge are definitely solid
enough. I did this because on my last soundboard for this same instrument - on my second day I decided that the sound was too metalic so I immediately
removed the soundboard and majorly trimmed down the main brace near the bridge. The oud's bass frequencies opened up very nicely, but then after some
time the soundboard began to deform too much, and then began cracking under the bridge pressure.... still the sound, with time, kept getting warmer
and warmer and warmer naturally. Finally it had 6 mega cracks and something began buzzing inside - so I decided to replace the entire soundboard.
I remember, from my time with Faruk, that he mentioned that the oud market demands from him ouds that sound immediately loud and warm, so therefore he
feels obliged to make the soundboards between 1.6 - 1.8mm which he feels leaves the instrument too vulnerable to damage. He said that these days few
people want to wait one year for their ouds to warm up - because with a heavier construction this is the time required for the that to happen.
I would like to hear other peoples experience with both:
1. having a metalic oud eventually warm up - OR NOT?
2. people having a new oud which sounded amazing on the first day, and then either got damaged, or eventually became OVERLY BASSLY (lacking clarity),
OR, simply went on sounding great to many years and never got damaged or overly deformed...
THANK ALL!
Al Yahudi - 5-2-2010 at 10:20 AM
Dear Edward,
I am writing just to remind you that you promised to post some video with ornamentation demonstrations to show us newbies (that was before you got
your eu papers , and since you got them already, I am honestly waiting for them)
For your question (sorry for going a little off topic)
I think that my oud is a good example to a well built basic instrument that was bought in cairo a year and a half ago for very little money , made by
abu dagher.
my teacher at the time said it sounded like a plastic guitar especially the high c and g and there was almost no bass to it but after 3 - 4 months it
opened up and delivered a beautiful sound and clarity. these days it buzzes from places i decided to stop look for and so i beleive its a sign to
get a better instrument . but not before i learn some of your ornmamentation techniques
with much appreciation
al
Sazi - 5-2-2010 at 02:04 PM
Hi Edward, There are even some makers who believe an oud should sound good from the first moment, and should not need time to "open up"... however,
there are often stresses in the instrument that need to loosen a bit with playing, so can take a little time to sound their best.
If you want an oud to sound good straight away then it is best to use Cedar for the soundboard, it will reach it's optimum sound in a short time, 2 -
3 months, and usually stays that way with no structural problems as Cedar needs to be a little thicker than Spruce due to being slightly weaker.
German Spruce takes about a year if you play it regularly. The strongest is Sitka spruce, but that can take up to two years for optimum sound,
depending on how much it is played.
On an instrument such as yours, with much tension and in-built stresses, I would be inclined to use Sitka for the strength of it. (Sitka is used for
most steel stringed guitars for it's strength)
Are you still using lattice bracing? You could try adding some carbon fiber to the top of the lattice, negligible weight but great strength.
Have you heard of a thing called the Tone-right? It is a little black box that vibrates the instrument simulating constant heavy use, thus opening up
the sound much quicker than just playing it. Many luthiers use them to make their guitars sound good just a few days after they are finished and the
consensus is that they work.
These things cost a bit but one luthier who had one noticed that the vibration was similar to a small aquarium pump, and tried using a small pump in
the same way as the Tone-right, with the same results, 72 hrs is a good first "opening up"session.
Now, for your original questions, yes I have had an oud that sounded very good at first and then became too bassy eventually, (about just over a year)
it was an amateur level Turkish model with Spruce top, but also am playing in a professional Spruce faced oud which is about a year old now and just
keeps getting better, the bass is getting warmer and the sustain is getting longer and the sound is still beautifully balanced.
My Cedar-faced oud is about the same age, it doesn't get used enough but still it sounds as it always has, very nice, warm and clear.
Good luck, S
Jonathan - 5-2-2010 at 04:26 PM
A lot of that metallic sound will go away.
Here's is my quick and easy approach to helping that process. Put the instrument in a room where a lot of music is played. I have music on about 18
hours a day, and I find that putting the oud in that environment speeds up the process of warming up a new oud. I know it sounds crazy, but perhaps
the vibrations from the music somehow make the whole thing resonate more sympathetically. It works. Somehow, it works.
mavrothis - 5-2-2010 at 06:54 PM
Hi,
I think typically every year or so an instrument changes. Especially when played a lot. Jonathan's suggestion sounds like a good idea.
mavrothi
fernandraynaud - 5-3-2010 at 04:41 AM
On several inexpensive instruments I have seen the sound change significantly after even 2 weeks of regular playing. The primary change has been the
initial simple timbre becoming deeper and more complex, with an increase in both the bass and the high treble. So much so that I was doubting my
impressions. That would be in line with the hard to believe 72 hours of "driving the resonance" making a difference. Playing an oud hard does shake
the (*&#)(#@#$ out of it. But a room with music playing doing it sounds a bit like a "music for plants" type claim. Still, I suppose ...
It also seems that instruments that have been stored "open up", suggesting that the opposite "closing down" also takes place.
Has anyone found any controlled experiments ?
Luttgutt - 5-3-2010 at 05:17 AM
I don't know what this is based on, but all the old makers and old players I met has told me at one time or another that the oud HAS to be played a
lot the first YEAR in order to get to its maximum output!
And I am NOT just talking about Oud makers, but also violin makers!!!
If this is true, then the oud will open up with time!
I am sure Jonathan is right! It is not the fact that you are "playing" the oud that makes it "mature", rather the fact that it "vibrates" when you
play it!
So putting it in a roon with loud music does the job (... as long as the oud is IN tune to the music beeing played....!!)
I have even a better and faster way:
Playing on stage with loud jazz or rock band, with the pick up (shadow in my case), with monitors... I feel that the oud is vibrating to the point
that I have to hold it hard not to fall apart : )
After 10 min. either the oud will expload, or opens up like $&#€%$
exuse my language 
p.s. Playing with 12 daff does NOT do the same job! It is NOT loud enough!!
Edward Powell - 5-3-2010 at 12:11 PM
Thanks so much everybody! This makes me feel better. . . . and guess what? In just 24 hours the thing is opening up majorly! The sound is now
coming really really nicely and there is no deformation at all under both the floating bridges!
So I am very glad I resisted the temptation to open her up and shave her down prematurely.
I would respond more but I am doing my last preparations before flying to Cairo! :-)
Edward Powell - 5-8-2010 at 01:47 AM
Interesting.... since coming to Cairo (I put the new soundboard on last week in Czech), my instrument has changed completely: the bass is strong in
completely different spots, the deformation of the soundboard changed totally... and the action is now even higher.
I guess is it drier here...
I now have an action problem... I should probably reset the neck angle, but that would be too heavy a surgery for right now -- instead I will steam
off the fingerboards and sand the neck angle back a bit. There is still enough meat on the necks to do this safely - and I only need to get thru this
one month (with some important concerts and recording).
But when I get home I will open it all up again and reset the necks and also alter the bracing again.
But what I can see is that a soundboard can not be judged until it is at least 10 days with full tension on it (at least with this 31 string
RAGMAKAMTAR).
But, the good news is that I am pleased with the tone.
JT83 - 5-8-2010 at 09:24 AM
Hello Mr Edward,
You might find this interesting: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/powerhousetwins.html
Best!
JT
bibo10 - 5-8-2010 at 02:25 PM
That's a very interesting article Joe, the last few statements sum up the point; that 3 years of playing wouldn't change much as far as the sound is
concerned.
I think this answers Edward's question. However, could this be different for the oud???
Edward,
I hope your stay in Egypt is a fun and productive one. I am very envious, wish i can visit the motherland soon
Edward Powell - 5-8-2010 at 03:02 PM
thanks...
well tomorrow I move into Mohammed Antar's flat with his family for one month --- we will work intensively on composing and recording a CD
together..... I think I will not experience much of Cairo this time.... but we should get a good cd out of it.
about instruments - it has been my experience that once an instrument has "broken in" then it does not really improve much more.... it just needs
that initial break in--- maybe that is what the article is saying?
sabbassi - 5-10-2010 at 12:36 AM
Edward,
The Metal sound on new ouds is a fact indeed true and very common with new ouds. but the oud should sound good already the first time. you can't add
better sound to it in the years.
there is some cripspness (don't know how to describe it) and warmth added. but you should recognize the sound you heard the first day. (le timbre)
there is a 4 season rule that appply to music instrument I think. an oud is at it's best when it survive 4 seasons at least and have changed
according to each season.
and of course each oud is different as are the people, coulours, on our planet. (different material used, glue, paper etc..)
after all this is only a theory not based on any scientifique test I have made. Its just a feeling.
thanks
Rg,
Samir
Edward Powell - 5-10-2010 at 12:57 AM
yes! my new ragmakamtar just failed the summer test..... but at least if I take it apart and reassemble it down here in hot cairo, it should then
be more immune to the heat in future...
actually, to be fair, I made the necks so they would be easily removable and therefore more vulnerable... I will now bite the bullet and glue them
permanently on with super glue - now that I have a better idea what the correct angles should be.
By the way Samir, you ouds sound GREAT!
I also know Khalid very well, and he was a big inspiration to me to start making my own instruments. . . . I have a very funny and long story to
tell about my experience with him, and watch him give birth to a custom oud for me in lightening speed! [it is a long story].
What a great man, and amazing maker!
sabbassi - 5-10-2010 at 01:08 AM
Thank Edward, enjoy your stary in Cairo.
Khalid is a master in oud making, amazing precision and also a music lover.
By the way I have some pictures of him of the last meeting with Turunz and other oud makers in Algeria about 8 months ago.. I will post some of them
soon.
Regards,
Samir
Edward Powell - 5-10-2010 at 01:54 PM
please please send pics... yes he is amazing with hand tools. . . . he totally blew my mind when I was there. First with how he used a scraper...
he always had a scraper in one hand a was continuously caressing his ouds with this sending off little gentle curls of wood shavings - how the hell
does he get his scrapers so sharp!!!
second, he cut his purfling channels by hand and by eye with nothing but an exacto knife!!! It just freaked me out what this guy is able to do so
effectively and gracefully with almost nothing for tools!