I've heard a lot of older oud recordings that were tuned down a wholestep, or at least almost a wholestep. In my experience I have yet to find a nylon
third course that can maintain decent tension (on my Sukar anyway) at that tuning without some kind of special shim in the loop on the bridge. My
question is how did they do it: did they just use thicker strings or maybe different strings or what?Danielo - 5-4-2010 at 10:08 AM
Hi Ameer,
At that time they were presumably using gut strings which are more dense than nylon, hence thinner for a given tension.. The modern replacement for
gut strings are Nylguts from Aquilas but even with the standard tuning I find the plain third course too thick (nylon would be even thicker). Thinner
strings could be obtained using very low tensions (below 3kg) but I doubt it would sound ok, not mentionning the buzzing problems. PVF is even more
dense and should give good results, but it does not sound really 'old school'.
I am also looking for the best third course strings!
regards,
Dan ameer - 5-4-2010 at 11:15 AM
I dunno... we're talking 1970's recordings that sound very nylon. Take a look at some of the Farid El Atrash taqasims on this site; at least a couple
are tuned down more than a halfstep.rojaros - 5-5-2010 at 02:26 PM
I dunno... we're talking 1970's recordings that sound very nylon. Take a look at some of the Farid El Atrash taqasims on this site; at least a couple
are tuned down more than a halfstep.
How about wound strings? They can take much more tuning abuse than plain nylon strings!
best wishes
Robertameer - 5-5-2010 at 06:52 PM
True, it's just that a wound third doesn't really have that old school vibe so to speak. On the other hand, I just tuned my Gamil George oud down a
wholestep (1.8725 to be exact, don't know where it comes from but I heard it and liked it) and the third feels fine. It's definitely loose, but not
quite as much on my Sukar when it's tuned the same. Here's the kicker: my George is 60.5 CM and the third is a .039, but my Sukar which is 62 CM needs
a .041 to get that level of tension.rojaros - 5-17-2010 at 04:58 AM
I dunno... we're talking 1970's recordings that sound very nylon. Take a look at some of the Farid El Atrash taqasims on this site; at least a couple
are tuned down more than a halfstep.
How about wound strings? They can take much more tuning abuse than plain nylon strings!
best wishes
Robert
I should mention that fluorocarbon strings are even a lot denser than nylgut (nylgut has 1260 kg/m3 and fluorocarbon 1791 kg/m3, whereas gut has 1300
kg/m3 and typical nylon has 1040 kg/m3. So nylgut is less dense than gut and fuorocarbon is much denser than gut) .
So for a plain string third course they might be the way to go. I have them on one oud as third course (a pyramid flouro carbon guitar g-string) and
I like it best of all plain courses I had. Especially if it is chosen so that it can be tuned not too hard, the sound is nice without beeing too sharp
-- as when flouorocarbon is used as hard tension string.
best wishes
Robertameer - 5-17-2010 at 05:57 AM
Right now what I do is to use a .038 nylon but I put a little shim in the loops so that the loop is larger than the other strings; a 1 CM boost should
be enough. This boosts the tension just enough so I can comfortably use it at a halfstep down. What I've thought of doing is getting a custom bridge
that protrudes somehow at the third course so it does the same thing but is inherent in the bridge design.jass - 5-17-2010 at 06:38 AM
I think here the clip is lower than a whole step, no?
Right now what I do is to use a .038 nylon but I put a little shim in the loops so that the loop is larger than the other strings; a 1 CM boost should
be enough. This boosts the tension just enough so I can comfortably use it at a halfstep down. What I've thought of doing is getting a custom bridge
that protrudes somehow at the third course so it does the same thing but is inherent in the bridge design.
But the technique you use seems just to make the action higher but doesn't make the tension harder. Don't you have a difference in intonation between
the 3rd and the 2d course?
best wishes
RobertEdward Powell - 5-17-2010 at 02:30 PM
this is wound third tuned down??ameer - 5-18-2010 at 04:49 AM
The shim is actually in the loop and sits on top of the bridge so it's like the bridge gets higher under that course. It increases the tension
slightly but as far as I can tell doesn't alter the intonation because the vibrating string length doesn't actually change.
I'm reasonably sure the third in that clip is nylon but it's muffled enough that I could easily be wrong; it sounds like a nylon third tuned down a
halfstep which in my experience is no problem in terms of tension. It's once you start going lower that it becomes an issue.
I'd be interested to know what the second was in that clip though; I haven't found anything that can quite nail it. A plastic wound second can get
close but doesn't have the same character.
