Mike's Oud Forums

Verbal Diarrhoea

Greg - 5-12-2010 at 04:31 AM

Is it just me or are other members getting a little tired of the constant barrage of 'expert opinion' coming from the same few members?

We seem to have acquired a few individuals who feel compelled to comment, in great detail, on every single topic and to bore the rest of us with their incessant chatter.

There are 1,837 members of these forums. Just once in a while it would be nice to be able to check the forums and not find every thread dominated by the thoughts and opinions of the same few individuals.

Perhaps I am the only person feeling this way. If so, I offer the chatterers my apologies. But if there are others who share my opinion, please let us all know.

Personally, I feel that the forums need a little more 'breathing space', so that all members may feel inclined to contribute.

As it is now, if anyone starts a thread on any subject, he or she will quickly be immersed in the verbal diarrhoea of the chattering experts.

My .02c worth.

Warm regards to all.

Greg Marsh

Branko - 5-12-2010 at 05:16 AM

No Greg, it is not just you.

But, let us be more understanding, this is also a kind of a social club for some, place to gain bit of a recognition for some, etc. We are just humans.


My 0.01 cent contribution

littleseb - 5-12-2010 at 05:21 AM

my 50p's worth:

i'd rather have people babbling than seeing no reaction at all to threats. everybody's contribution is valuable. and, when opening a new threat, one wants to get as many points of views as possible. if i don't like a certain post i just don't take notice.

please, let's not discourage people from posting!!!

Edward Powell - 5-12-2010 at 05:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by littleseb  
my 50p's worth:

i'd rather have people babbling than seeing no reaction at all to threats. everybody's contribution is valuable. and, when opening a new threat, one wants to get as many points of views as possible. if i don't like a certain post i just don't take notice.

please, let's not discourage people from posting!!!


my feelings exactly... the other two forums I blab on sometimes have very few participants, and that's a bummer. It is easy enough just to skip over endless text when it seems uninteresting - but I love this forum because it is ALIVE.

However, I do think the admin. could jump in perhaps a bit more quickly at times to try to trim down the personal attacks when they occationally happen.

littleseb - 5-12-2010 at 05:45 AM

i'm glad we agree ed!

but personal attacks on here are rare. compared to some other forums this is a place of endless harmony!

Manil - 5-12-2010 at 05:48 AM

The thread of Joseph Tawdaros new album is just a good example of a thread going mango like Greg said...He putted the thread back on topic, I think we need more moderating efforts to keep this forum a place for oud lovers that can help each others.

My 2 dinars :)

DaveH - 5-12-2010 at 06:05 AM

Hi Greg

This is going to be a good one. You're a brave man.

No, it’s not just you. But I hate to do anything to discourage participation. That’s how you kill a forum.

My feeling would be, as a gentle reminder to the more exuberant among us, post as much as you like, but try and

1) keep it relevant to the thread
2) make sure it’s comprehensible to an international audience – avoid colloquialisms, “in jokes” and cultural references
3) take the hint when people are starting to become offended – either drop it, make peace or find another, diplomatic way to address the point. Certain words may touch nerves with some people for reasons you don’t understand. Screaming arbuments are sometimes a good way of getting outcomes face-to-face in business, politics the legal system or relationships. I don’t believe they get any results in an internet forum. It just doesn't work that way. We’re not trying to save the world, just exchange information, learn, and express ourselves.
4) make sure you specify, when putting forward technical suggestions/advice, whether it’s:
a) generally accepted expert opinion
b) the results of personal experience, or
c) unproven experimentation and general, unsubstantiated weirdness (nothing wrong with this, so long as it’s clear, especially to easily influenced new folk)

The other thing I’d say is that for something like this to be successful, everyone has to participate in contributing new, interesting topics, responding to threads and encouraging others. Some people may have been put off by the issues you raise, but the only solution is to post stuff that interests you, not to discourage people you don’t agree with.

Many members seem to go through a life cycle of exuberance and being all over the forums like a rash (that’s me a few years back) and then ending up with a lot of knowledge but rarely contributing, perhaps because the debates aren’t ones that interest them.

The experienced members can seem like a bit of a closed circle to the newbie, and the newbie with questions tends to get answers from other newbies - which probably wasn't what he/she was looking for.

Maybe that’s just life, but perhaps to keep the forums on track, it would help for the more experienced members to keep a more active and open presence. I’m afraid I think that the burden probably always falls on the more experienced members to take more than their fare share of the load – and I conveniently exclude myself from this category.

David Parfitt - 5-12-2010 at 06:59 AM

Couldn't agree with you more, Greg. But you know what they say: "Empty vessels make the most noise". :D

Brian Prunka - 5-12-2010 at 07:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by littleseb  
i'm glad we agree ed!

but personal attacks on here are rare. compared to some other forums this is a place of endless harmony!


I'm continually amazed at how polite and considerate this forum is, most internet forums seems to be filled with people trolling for arguments and attacking one another. There are some arguments here, some of which may be frivolous, but people do keep them civilized.

I think DaveH's points are all good ones, but most of the nonsense would be avoided if we were more diligent about this one:
1) keep it relevant to the thread

I also totally agree with this:
Quote: Originally posted by DaveH  
Many members seem to go through a life cycle of exuberance and being all over the forums like a rash (that’s me a few years back) and then ending up with a lot of knowledge but rarely contributing, perhaps because the debates aren’t ones that interest them.


Overall, I think that new energy is a good thing, and it's OK if people go overboard a little bit, as long as they a)keep on topic and b)are not intentionally offensive or disrespectful.

Sazi - 5-13-2010 at 08:45 AM

@Greg.

Though I may not be a member of the seemingly exclusive "Mike's Old Boy's Club" I am no newby, yet as one of the few who have been pro-active on the forum quite a bit lately I found your post offensive, especially coming from an administrator. If things have come to this surely a discreet u2u to the perceived "offenders" would be more moderate than a public smack in the face?

Personally if I think a post is not worth wasting my time on I skip it, and that if any so-called expert thinks advice given is wrong or that there is a better answer then it would be beneficial to all to offer that answer regardless.

I think we're all trying to learn from and to help each other, and even experts can sometimes differ in opinion.






Edward Powell - 5-13-2010 at 09:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
@Greg.

Though I may not be a member of the seemingly exclusive "Mike's Old Boy's Club" I am no newby, yet as one of the few who have been pro-active on the forum quite a bit lately I found your post offensive, especially coming from an administrator. If things have come to this surely a discreet u2u to the perceived "offenders" would be more moderate than a public smack in the face?

Personally if I think a post is not worth wasting my time on I skip it, and that if any so-called expert thinks advice given is wrong or that there is a better answer then it would be beneficial to all to offer that answer regardless.

I think we're all trying to learn from and to help each other, and even experts can sometimes differ in opinion.








I agree....
This forum is incredibly popular, - but don't take that for granted.

On the other hand I sympathize with the Admin. because they HAVE to read everything.

Edward Powell - 5-13-2010 at 10:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Greg  
Is it just me or are other members getting a little tired of the constant barrage of 'expert opinion' coming from the same few members?



This sounds pretty sarcastic (or?)... but the truth seems to me that, if I am reading the situation clearly, the "chatterboxes" have in fact been offering very intelligent posts, and I was really enjoying that. I am sitting here alone in a flat all day on the outskirts of Cairo and it is a great pleasure for me to be able to click on MIKES and discuss such things as we are discussing here - I really valued this "chatter" and "expert opinion".

Personally Greg, no offense, but I think you owe us a public apology :)

francis - 5-13-2010 at 05:57 PM

I agree with you Greg, entirely.
A few members write "expert opinion" on most of threads, which looks rather empty sometimes.....but we know after reading 20, 30 or 40 lines. The "best" is when the conclusion is to tell that they have no opinion, I read it in a few posts
Of course it's important that each one can give here is opinions, ideas or feelings.
The incessant chat you speak about must be the wrong side of success.....and may be the forum grows poor these days.
I didn't read some threads, when I see a few names and whole pages written after a few hours, even if I have interest with the subject......verbal diarrhoea brings me to other threads.....effectively it is rather new on this forum; discussion quality was better before, to my opinion, and we could find some air while reading....
My half euro contribution.....
And thanks for opening this thread!

Greg - 5-13-2010 at 10:28 PM

It would appear that a further post from me is in order. Firstly, I regret my use of intemperate language in my first post. I am sorry for the words used in delivering my message, but I do not resile from the sentiments expressed in that message.

Secondly, I should have been more specific about the people my post targeted.
In order to avoid hurting or embarrassing identifiable individuals, I referred to a “few” members. In so doing, I have clearly offended people for which the criticism was never intended. So my unreserved apologies to those people. If your posts are usually on topic, not unnecessarily argumentative, give full respect to the opinions and sensitivities of other members and not intended solely to be provocative, then my criticisms were not meant for you (no matter how often you post).

Someone suggested that it was improper for an Administrator to make such comments. That person may have been right. But it seems to be considered perfectly proper that other members can say anything they want and hurt anyone they want, without repercussions. That apparently is their right – the right of free speech. The right to cause well respected members of our community to have sleepless nights.
Well my friends, if that’s your ‘right’ it is also a right that I, as a member, may like to exercise once in a while.

This issue is not about old members versus new members. If it were not for the "exuberance" of a continual flow of new members, the forums would become a very dull and lifeless place. In the six years I have been associated with the forums, I have seen many new members come and some go. New members bring fresh ideas and enthusiasm. And whilst they usually post at a higher rate than the norm, I have never seen the forums so completely swamped as they have been in the last few months.

Someone suggested I should have quietly sent a private message to the perceived offenders. That is not my right. I am an administrator/moderator, not a censor. I have a clear responsibility to put an immediate halt to anything that is likely to be considered defamatory or anything that has political or religious implications that may offend a large number of people. It is not my right, as an administrator/moderator, to privately contact individual members to ask them to reduce their numbers of posts.
But it is my right as a member to throw the topic open for discussion by starting a public thread and that is what I have done.

This is not about trying to stop people’s enthusiasm . It is about an expectation that all members, new or old, will maintain sensitivity and respect for other members of the forums and not try to dominate all discussion, or provoke unpleasantness.
It is about an expectation that all members will accept that other members may have valid points of view and that those points of view should be respected, rather than argued, ad nauseum. In other words, make your point and then allow space for others to do so. If the opinion of others disagrees with your own, accept that they may just be right and that it is not your right to keep posting until your opinion is accepted by all as the incontrovertible truth.

It is about a realisation that every word you post will be read by others and that those others visit the forums to seek assistance, to keep abreast of changes, to hear about and see new products, to share their joy with a new acquisition, to read the opinions of other ‘oud’ people, and so on. If it becomes necessary to wade through pages and pages of ‘coal’ to find the few ‘diamonds’, then many will not continue to bother.

It is not the lack of "babble" that will kill these forums, it is the lack of regular participation by thoughtful and knowledgeable people.

Sazi - 5-13-2010 at 11:26 PM

Thank you Greg

As someone who is extremely grateful to Mike for these forums to both learn from and to help others, I appreciate your explanation.

p.s. Regarding being mindful when posting, (without wishing to impose religion on anybody) I rather like the little reminder above the quick-reply box at Al Basry's forum, "Remember God is watching"

Selaam.

Edward Powell - 5-14-2010 at 12:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Greg  
It would appear that a further post from me is in order. Firstly,......... etc.

:)

Nihil ad nauseam, habibi

fernandraynaud - 5-14-2010 at 12:57 AM

When you take into account the enormous cultural differences among members, the friendliness and helping hand tenor of this Forum is almost unbelievable.

It's likely because most people here have experienced life's many sides, and have developed kindness and sensitivity as a result. It's not likely because they are coerced, threatened or insulted.

There have been posts on this forum that have caused some people sadness or grief. But when it was brought to the attention of those responsible, sometimes after arguments being restated and repeated (that's how friends talk), their tone changed and became conciliatory, often even expressing a greater sense of friendship, not a pro forma disingenuous "regret". In all cases but one.

I truly have appreciated the company of everyone else on this forum.

Since I have been guilty of spending too much time here (though mostly in the spirit of trying to provide answers and help reconcile different views), my contritely brief and on-topic reply to your unresilement is : ROTFL.

rojaros - 5-24-2010 at 01:08 PM

Hello Greg, I see your point and hope I didn't contribute to your feeling of nausea. I appreciate this forum very much, having got good advice here and also hoping to having been able of giving some advice to others.

I do not visit many other forums just because the general language and stile of dealing with others is just disgusting sometimes. The more I appreciate very much the friendly and helpful atmosphere of Mikes forum which is rare nowadays.

Thanks for all your work to maintain this forum.

best wishes
Robert

Greg - 5-24-2010 at 04:14 PM

Thanks very much Robert.

I had 'almost' forgotten about this thread. Mercifully, it had disappeared off the front page a few days ago.
I think those of us who wanted to have a say on this issue have now done so and I will therefore close off the thread.
Thanks to those who contributed.

Regards,

Greg