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synthetic ouds?

Edward Powell - 5-12-2010 at 10:57 AM

does anyone know of any excellent sounding ouds make with synthetic materials?

Sazi - 5-13-2010 at 08:14 PM

Hi Edward,

I have not as yet heard of any synthetic ouds, and indeed one well respected Arabic luthier I spoke to regarding this expressed indignation at the very thought of it, stating that an oud by definition is made of wood.

However, good instrument grade timber is becoming harder to find and more expensive, and I believe it is only a matter of time.

There are already producers of very good synthetic guitars, violins and cellos. However, no-one is giving away any "secrets"and it will probably be left to one of us enthusiasts due to the research and developement involved.

I am interested in this too as I live in a hot humid place, but where the humidity can vary greatly, and have had problems due to this. I have already found a local supplier for some of the materials for my own experiments in this direction.

Below are a few links to the little information I have found so far...

http://www.pdfsource.com/musics-files/8668/materials-inspired-innov...

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Guitars/Special/Graphite/graphite.html

http://www.blackbirdguitars.com/technology.html

Cheers, S

Sazi - 5-13-2010 at 11:42 PM

By the way, If you are interested I will keep you up to date on anything else that eventuates in this area, and would be grateful for any additional info you could throw my way too.

Cheers, S

Edward Powell - 5-14-2010 at 12:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

By the way, If you are interested I will keep you up to date on anything else that eventuates in this area, and would be grateful for any additional info you could throw my way too.

Cheers, S

there is a ton of stuff on synthetic guitars - cellos etc etc and they seem to sound good.

my main concern here is travelling back and forth between mid-east and eur. and having my 31 string instrument survive the atmospheric changes.

Aymara - 5-14-2010 at 12:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

... and having my 31 string instrument survive the atmospheric changes.

A further approach might be an electric instrument, that sounds accoustic.

Gibson for example developed an electric guitar called Dusk Tiger, which seems to go that route. But I didn't hear it so far.

Maybe further research in this direction might be worth it too?

Edward Powell - 5-14-2010 at 12:44 AM

Thanks Chris... but actually it is important for me to remain acoustic, that is part of the "message" of my music.

Aymara - 5-14-2010 at 12:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

... it is important for me to remain acoustic ...

Ok ... understandable ... then maybe have a look at Ovation Guitars as a further inspiration.

Edward Powell - 5-14-2010 at 01:45 AM

...the back is not really the problem - it is the soundboard. Maybe I could learn how to make the DOUBLE SOUNDBOARD... the one huge advantage of these is that they will NEVER crack.

Aymara - 5-14-2010 at 02:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

... the one huge advantage of these is that they will NEVER crack.

OK, but you still have the problem, that wood warps under uge humidity/temperature changes.

That's why I talked about Ovation ... they have the synthetic body and above we saw graphit soundboards. But what about the neck? Maybe a steel core like on guitars and basses is the solution for the neck.

Hard to tell without trying, but I fear a synthetic material instrument will always sound worse than a wooden.

So maybe a double soundboard combined with a steel core neck is the way to go? Maybe a colaboration with your friend Faruk Türünz is possible? Building a custom instrument together with you might be an interesting advertising for him.

Edward Powell - 5-14-2010 at 03:15 AM

weight is also a huge factor....
I know for sure that I am going to learn to make an adjustable neck for all my future instruments (as well as some non-crackable way to make soundboards)... I am really fed up with all this changability.

this instrument http://www.edwardpowell.com/rmtar3.html was built 95% in Faruk's shop - started out with Faruk doing mostly everything (you can see him in the first pic doing the bracing), but then later he could see I was gaining confidence and ability - and on top of that he was obviously busy with his stuff.... so I finished it mostly on my own with the occational help from Faruk and the other great guys there.

i was lucky, because i got in there just before faruk started getting REALLY busy---- now i think the workshop is too crowded busy probably.... and in any case i need to develop my own workshop and skills - and the instrument is changing and refining all the time I don't want to get too committed to one design until I have a fool-proof prototype. This was the mistake I made with ragmakamtar version #3 - I was thinking that this would be the LAST instrument I would ever build... until I realised that it was the FIRST (actually it was my 11th, but you know what I mean). I put everything into it - incredibly fine decorations bla bla bla. . . . . only to finally realise that I was not completely satisfied with it. But I did do many concerts with it and recorded one CD... http://www.edwardpowell.com/rmcd.html [but of course, ultimately to build again in Faruk's workshop would be the "BEST"

thing on the PLANET to do!!!]

Sazi - 5-14-2010 at 05:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Maybe a steel core like on guitars and basses is the solution for the neck.

I don't think so because...

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

weight is also a huge factor....

Just my opinion...

If I were in your position Edward, I would definitely go for a graphite insert in the neck, at least the "Sarod" neck, really the oud neck should not need a truss rod as the tension is not that great, but a graphite rod certainly wouldn't hurt, I know some makers are using CF "truss rods" (really just reinforcement inserts) that run right through the neck into the neck block, - result- they don't move, and the weight is negligible compared to hardwood or steel inserts, and no need to build in any adjustment mechanisms. Graphite reinforcement would be much lighter and it is 10 times stronger than steel for the weight. I know the fingerboards on those CF guitars are also carbon fibre, perhaps you wouldn't want it on the oud neck, but it may be a good option for the sarod neck, it may help that sliding tone.

All in all, since apart from a stable soundboard, which as you say, would be taken care of with a nomex sandwich, your main worry is weight, so I think CF is the way to go, for the body, neck reinforcement, even the bridges.

Something to think about anyway...

Cheers, S

Edward Powell - 5-14-2010 at 05:55 AM

what about CF for the entire thing?

Sazi - 5-14-2010 at 06:24 AM

Now you're talking! That's the pioneering spirit I like to hear! It would solve all our problems. If they can do it successfully with guitars, violins and cellos to the satisfaction of professional players, there is no reason why not!

An added bonus is that CF instruments are LOUD, which is great when you're playing acoustically with a bunch of over-enthusiastic percussionists, or other loud instruments.

Edward Powell - 5-14-2010 at 06:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Now you're talking! That's the pioneering spirit I like to hear! It would solve all our problems. If they can do it successfully with guitars, violins and cellos to the satisfaction of professional players, there is no reason why not!

An added bonus is that CF instruments are LOUD, which is great when you're playing acoustically with a bunch of over-enthusiastic percussionists, or other loud instruments.

...yes, I'm afraid you are right - - - seems that CF is used similar to fiberglassing. . .

Sazi - 5-14-2010 at 07:01 AM

Yes, very similar to fiberglassing, lot's of epoxy resin, not too difficult to layer up, but some people are allergic to epoxies.

oudtab - 5-15-2010 at 03:35 AM

Bonjour Edward,

Dan Armstrong made an acrylic guitar in the 60's :

- http://www.danarmstrong.org/photos.html
- http://www.danarmstrong.org/guitar2a.html
- http://www.danarmstrong.org/guitar3.html
- http://www.ampeg.com/products/daplexi/ada6/index.html

If you try to build an oud with this material, let us know in the "Oud Projects Forum".

Edward Powell - 5-15-2010 at 03:43 AM

thanks!

probably I will try to build a RAGMAKAMTAR with this. . . .

http://www.edwardpowell.com/rmtar6.html

Sazi - 5-15-2010 at 04:57 AM

I never thought of acrylic, I don't know what it's acoustic properties are, isn't it relatively heavy? It scratches easily.
I do know that the other material used for soundboards with success is foamed polycarbonate, with acoustic properties very close to spruce, (Polycarbonate is used for bullet-proof "glass", among other things, so I guess it's pretty strong!) (and if someone pulls out a gun you can hide behind it)

I found plenty of polycarbonate but Foamed Polycarbonate seems to be rare, fairly new so I was told by a rep from a plastics company here, so relatively unknown that they weren't even going to stock it. But then again I am at the end of the world... it's probably easily available in Europe.

adamgood - 5-15-2010 at 10:25 AM

The...

Cumpiano/Janes
Compression-molded, 100% carbon-fiber laminated guitar soundboard

...looks like the tree worth barking up! That plus an Ovation style back (what material do they use?) and...and...and...something more on my wishlist, headless Steinberger neck (made of wood, I wouldn't worry too hard about a truss rod) and we have some interesting ud of the future. I even have an idea for the tuners.

Edward get yer butt over here and let's draw up the plans

Edward Powell - 5-15-2010 at 10:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by adamgood

Edward get yer butt over here and let's draw up the plans

sounds like fun bro! ...and i haven't been to Berlin in ages........

mavrothis - 5-15-2010 at 11:20 AM

Peter Kyvelos made some kind of synthetic oud years ago. I haven't seen it or heard it, but you might want to get in touch with him about it.

Good luck,

mavrothi

Aymara - 5-15-2010 at 12:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by adamgood

... an Ovation style back (what material do they use?) ...

It's called Lycrachord, a material similar to fiberglass. I bet the details are a secret. There are rumours, it's a fiberglass-plastic mixture.

Sazi - 5-15-2010 at 03:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Quote: Originally posted by adamgood

... an Ovation style back (what material do they use?) ...

It's called Lycrachord, a material similar to fiberglass. I bet the details are a secret. There are rumours, it's a fiberglass-plastic mixture.

That's old technology

and fiberglass is heavy, weight is a concern for Edward here. Go for the CF!

I know this is really about the Ragmakamtar, but ooh! a shiny all-black featherweight weather-proof oud... yum! :cool:

Edward Powell - 5-15-2010 at 03:33 PM

the more toxic and carcinogenic the better! :xtreme:

Sazi - 5-15-2010 at 03:35 PM

:applause:

(It's a joke, people, remember laughter? it's good for you!)

Edward Powell - 5-15-2010 at 03:45 PM

...actually the funny thing is that I just finished making a fiberglass custom flight case for my RAGMAKAMTAR... and I actually managed to put it off! So now I am getting familiar with how this stuff works... but man it is toxic stuff - I was in a haze for 2 weeks! (and almost divorsed because of it!)

)

Sazi - 5-15-2010 at 04:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

...actually the funny thing is ...

That's not funny Edward, please take care!

If you can't beg, borrow or otherwise obtain breathing apparatus, at least try to do it outdoors.

Edward Powell - 5-15-2010 at 10:37 PM

yes, not funny at all! Just that alone is a big plus for just sticking with wood. Even having a filter and doing it outdoors is not completely enough (although <b>certainly totally essential</b> for this kind of work)

Sazi - 5-15-2010 at 10:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

...that alone is a big plus for just sticking with wood.

Wood is looking good! I was reading on another oud forum, the well-known and respected maker says he sprays the entire inside of the oud, soundboard and all with a moisture barrier, (& his soundboards are only 1mm thick) maybe that would solve your humidity/warping problems.