Hi everybody,
I'm a classical guitar student and teacher from Poland. One of my dream is to make my own lute, inspired by european late renaissance lutes.
So I purchased some 1,5 mm thick mahogany, two Stanley planes, some minor tools and a pack of hide glue, and started to work. There are results - one
bowl finished, and next one in preparation (I have done some progress since the photos were taken, I will upload more views just later):
The first one is my design and was done without any mold, and then I didn't realised that after gluing together some ribs the shape was improper, so I
had to "cover" it with wider top ribs. And the final reult is quite weird shape... To the second bowl I'm carvind, I've prepared a simple mold, and
started to work with gluing central rib, then "thirds", "fifths" and fitting the rest beetwen them (i don't know if it is a good idea in general). But
unfortunately I have still troubles - the ribs aren't equally wide and there are still small gaps beetwen them.
So I hereby want to ask You:
- the desing of the ribs to have them fitting to each others is still a mystery for me - how to predict a shape of ribs when cutting?
- I'm feeling that the mold is quite too huge - are there some principals for making mold?
- I have read somewhere that making a bowl with spacers beetween ribs is easier than without - Is it true?
- and the last - I think that while mahogany is quite soft, elastic and flexible, it is very hard to bend to a proper shape. it remembers previous
shape? I'am right? Maybe it is not the best wood I can start with?
Thank You in advance for any opinions and suggestions.fernandraynaud - 5-25-2010 at 12:16 AM
Panie Antku, witamy! Welcome to our forum!
Oud bowls are even more beautiful than lute bowls I think. Look at Dr Oud's book if you can, I hope he answers your questions. And there are many
photos here, as some of our members completely design and make their own ouds -- use the forum's Search. antekboodzik - 5-25-2010 at 12:17 AM
Niezmiernie mi miło I'm glad.jdowning - 5-25-2010 at 02:09 PM
Although the oud and European lute are historically directly related and are, therefore, substantially very similar instruments in design and method
of construction, there are some important differences. If you intend to make a lute that will enable you to explore the vast surviving repertoire of
the 16th/17th lute music (including the works of the lute virtuosi employed by the Polish courts) you will need a lute of appropriate historical
design - not an oud, no matter what its geometrical profile happens to be(!).
It is not necessary (or advisable) for you to try to 'design' a lute (unless you happen to have an 'in depth' knowledge and data about the surviving
lutes). Otherwise, you will likely waste a lot of time, effort and money and probably end up disappointed in the results.
Your best approach would be to follow what luthiers, with first hand experience in building lutes, have to offer.
One possibility might be to purchase the lute plan/CD ROM by luthier David van Edwards which gives a step by step procedure for making a 7 course lute
- a good starting point for a novice. I have not had the opportunity to review and assess the content of the package but forum member Yaron Naor is
currently sharing his experience in making a lute in accordance with the instructions in "Making a 7 Course Renaissance Lute" on this forum so would
be worth contacting for his opinion.
Another approach might be to purchase the book "Historical Lute Construction" by Robert Lundberg - giving a detailed account of the process of
building a lute.
The book and associated full size working drawings are available from the Guild of American Luthiers
You will also find a detailed description about making a lute/oud mold, making a rib template, shaping the ribs and assembling the bowl using hot hide
glue (using a method practiced by the ancient oud and lute makers) on the project "Old Oud - New Project" on this forum.
Additionally, with reference to your specific questions about making a lute bowl, spacers or 'lines' between the ribs is an additional complication -
i.e. more work - that does not make construction of the bowl any easier.
The bowl is assembled - rib by rib in sequence - starting from the central rib and working outwards.
The ribs must fit precisely to the contour of the mold as well as edge to edge - without gaps and without forcing the ribs together. This takes
practice and attention to detail to perfect.
The rib blanks should be bent to the required curvature with dry heat (at close to scorching temperature) some time prior to constructing the bowl.
Individual ribs are then again re-bent to the exact mold profile - to correct any 'spring back' or relaxation of the wood fibres - just prior to final
shaping and fitting.
Mahogany was not a wood traditionally used for making lute bowls. A European hardwood such as figured Maple or Ash would be a better choice.
Good luck with your project.
antekboodzik - 5-25-2010 at 11:28 PM
Thank you, jdowning!
How can I miss this thread (Old Oud - New Project), it reveals nearly everything for me
About these books and courses, I can afford them, but 60$ for one is rather expensive for me. So then I want to proof myself, if I'am skilled enough
to make at least an instrument which doesn't crack at strings tension. Next step will be exploring things deeper of course.
If everything will go fine, today I will finish the second of my bowls I will
share images.
And fortunately, Sapelle mahogany is quite cheap, materials for more than two bowls costs not more than 10$ fernandraynaud - 5-26-2010 at 12:17 AM
Allow me to suggest a little thought that you can leave in a corner of your mind, to visit now and then, and see how it's doing. The thought is this:
consider defecting!
Defecting from the fretted Lute and coming with us, to discover the Oud and the Maqam musical tradition, sounds and ideas that go back to our common
roots in Classical Greece, the tetrachord system that was rediscovered by the great brotherhoods of the 8 -13th centuries that knew Latin, Arabic and
Greek, and flourished before restrictive minds limited scales to more rigid intervals!
Search on Youtube for "Taqsim Oud". The Taqsim is an improvised piece that develops in a specific Maqam. antekboodzik - 5-27-2010 at 03:04 PM
Unfortunately, I've got an idea to brush inner surface of my bowl with glue when putting paper strips, and I think it was not good, because the bowl
is still a little wet, so I didn't decide to take it to my home, and the place where it's is not for taking photos...
But the bowl is secured against stretching to an improper shape, hope it will work,
and we will see tomorrow :]
And I admire the flavour of ud, but nobody knows why, that the thing that amaze me is 9 or 11 ribbed shape of the bowl! :]Dr. Oud - 5-28-2010 at 12:41 PM
Oud Construction, rather than lute construction.antekboodzik - 5-28-2010 at 01:12 PM
As I promised:
When I finish any playable instrument, I will purchase the book immediately. But at first I must be sure that I can use it.
Progress of my work.
antekboodzik - 6-9-2010 at 09:25 AM
here's what i'm working on:
Two completed bowl (the same like above) wiith some materials for a neck - two pieces of mahogany sapelli and two jatoba pieces (I got them in
shipyard, those are offcuts from wood used to decorate yahts' cabins, and one man told me those are at least few yeras old - would mapple be
better?)
And I started to make another bowl (and fortunately run out from those <b>shoot</b>ty sapelli )
It's much more accurate for now, but I have some troubles and would like to ask You for an advise, Every time I do it, 3rds, 4ths and next pairs of
ribs counting from center are a little away from mold:
Is it a fault or it is normal?
So then I realized that last (top) ribs shall be slightly wider. Considering that, I have cut them (acctually much more) wider:
And now I have a confusion - Maybe shall I fit them perfectly to the edge of mold with a piece of paper, then transfer to the wider rib and cut? Or
leave it intact, producing a bowl a little wider (like on next image)?
Please, tell me what do You think.Dr. Oud - 6-9-2010 at 02:23 PM
As I promised:...
When I finish any playable instrument, I will purchase the book immediately. But at first I must be sure that I can use it.
the book is about construction of the oud, not playing the oud.
It's normal and preferable for the ribs to space out from the mold. If you force the ribs against the mold you will create tension in the rib, which
makes the bowel much more likely to crack or split later when it is bumped.
as for the top rib< Make it a bit wider so you have plenty of material to trim the top edge and align the neck and tail blocks.jdowning - 6-9-2010 at 06:17 PM
Just to add to Richard's comments.
The baseplate of your mold should be thick enough to provide dimensional stability to the mold structure (at least 3/4 inch). On completion of the
bowl the mold is then placed on a flat surface and the top edge of the bowl marked around the perimeter at the correct height for trimming (using, for
example, a pencil taped to a block of wood of the required thickness). See the attached sketch.
All of the ribs should be hot bent to fit the mold profile as closely as possible - without any forcing. This will minimise any of the 'ballooning'
effect that you have experienced (due to an accumulation of errors). If the ribs are correctly fitted there should be very little, if any, final
deviation from the mold profile. This requires some practice and attention to detail to achieve.
antekboodzik - 6-11-2010 at 02:33 AM
Thank You for your tips :] They're very valuable and important for me.
jdowning: Your sketch has given me an idea, nothing is lost with my thin baseplate instead. I can still put it on small wooden bricks and guide the
line to trim.
Dr. Oud: I wanted to say, that before purchasig any book I shall prove myself, I am skilled enough to make at least an instrument which doesn't crack
at string tension. then I will have a good point to start developing my skills. Otherwise I can end with a knowledge but without ability to use it.
That's why I think so.
jdowning - 6-11-2010 at 04:12 AM
Blocks under the mold base plate will work but it is important for the base plate to be rigid and flat in the first place because any flexing (or
warping with humidity changes) of the mold during construction of the bowl can cause alignment problems later.antekboodzik - 6-11-2010 at 10:41 PM
And one more - It is a good idea to "paint" inner surface of the bowl with hide glue? Or whole bowl?fernandraynaud - 6-12-2010 at 01:41 AM
I can certainly tell you about one oud where a little less painting with glue might have been better.
I'm glad.
)
