Mike's Oud Forums

Question regarding ouds with amp. connector

OudSaleh - 5-26-2010 at 09:08 AM

Hello all,

This being my first post, allow me first to congratulate Mike on creating such an amazing hub for all oud lovers out there.


I have yet to even pick up a oud, but planning on buying one in a week and start my journey with this beautiful instrument. I have no experience with any musical instrument whatsoever.

In my research, I've come across ouds with amp. connectors; my questions therefore is to what extent would having one (plugged to an amp or not) influence the natural sound? Also, are such ouds more expensive than others without? I ask because I'm interested in practising but without disturbing others as I know how the first few months of the learning curve would not sound brilliant and could get annoying.

Thanks everyone,

Saleh

Aymara - 5-26-2010 at 11:20 AM

Hi Saleh,

welcome to the "Club of Oudlovers" ;)
Quote: Originally posted by OudSaleh  

In my research, I've come across ouds with amp. connectors; my questions therefore is to what extent would having one (plugged to an amp or not) influence the natural sound?


It's similar as with guitars ... there are acoustic instruments with an additional pickup, so you can play acoustically or amplified with an amp. And there are electric instruments, that can only be played with an amp ... ok, also without an amp, but then they are too silent ;)

Regarding pickups ... we have a special pickup thread, because there are many different models.

Acoustic ouds with pickup sound different when amplified compared to their acoustic sound ... the better the pickup, the less difference.
Quote:
I ask because I'm interested in practising but without disturbing others as I know how the first few months of the learning curve would not sound brilliant and could get annoying.


Then you'll need an electric oud and an amp with headphones.

fernandraynaud - 5-26-2010 at 12:13 PM

There are normal ouds that are retro-fitted with (piezoelectric) pickup(s), a thin cable goes to a Jack, or to a pre-amp and then to a Jack. Some pickups are visible, on the soundboard or bridge, others are hidden beneath the soundboard. Same with the pre-amp box and controls: visible vs. internal.

The Jack you plug the amp cable into can be mounted on the soundboard, in a hole drilled in the bowl, or on a pre-amp box.

Unless incompetently done, none of these retro-fits appreciably change how the oud sounds "acoustically". Some ouds have the pickups/pre-amps fitted at the "factory".

And then there are Electric Ouds that are built around pickups from the outset, including ones that have only a "frame" body. An electric oud might make little or no sound "acoustically", if it has no resonant cavity, others have a shallow body and play quietly without an amplifier. Both of these are usable for "silent" practice, but the latter generally display the best workmanship, like hollow-body jazz guitars, and are the most expensive.

Oud strings are not made of magnetic materials and thus cannot work with normal guitar pickups. Piezo-electric pickups generate a weak signal subject to distortion, and thus pre-amps are often used. Many experts feel that NO pickups can truly capture the full complexity of the acoustic oud, and hence will categorically state that silent practice and concert sound cannot be coaxed out of one instrument. Others argue that electronics can open new timbres and consider the flat-body oud good enough for both.

Truth be told, it is probably cheaper to buy two specialized ouds than to find a miracle shallow-body oud that does well at quiet practice, amplified shredding, and the occasional unplugged moonlight improvisation!

As a first step you could buy an acoustic oud without an ornamental rosette, so you can cram stuff inside the bowl to mute it to your partners' satisfaction, then gradually remove the stuffing as you gain confidence. Or you could get a solid-body electric oud and a 5000 watt "stack", and resolve any issues by complete and indisputable domination in a 1 kilometer radius.

Aymara - 5-26-2010 at 01:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  

As a first step you could buy an acoustic oud without an ornamental rosette, so you can cram stuff inside the bowl to mute it to your partners' satisfaction, ...


Besides the risk of damaging the braces below the soundboard, I think an electric oud would also sound much better as a stuffed up acoustic and so makes more fun ... you can play as loud as you want, if you use headphones.

Later the electric oud could be sold and exchanged against a good acoustic. Or you keep the electric for late night playing with headphones and use the acoustic during the day.

That's what I would do, if I would be in this situation ... ok, depending on my budget.

OudSaleh - 5-26-2010 at 03:11 PM

Thank you all very much.


I just realised what a horrendous, illogical mistake I had made in thinking that having an acoustic oud fitted with a pickup, hooked to an amp. and headphones and VOILÀ! the sounds produced by the natural strumming, not to mention the body itself that would naturally amplify it, would be abolished.

Not a good start OudSaleh!

I guess the only logical and correct thing I have done so far in regards to this was to join the forum!

Although I think the electric oud is fit for my current purposes, I am deeeeeeeeeeeply in love with the natural sounds acoustic ouds make. Did I mention I am an Arab who is half Yemeni? So I guess you can only imagine my infatuation for that rich, authentic sound of an acoustic specifically in playing Arabic music. Although plenty would say that there is little to no difference between the two in terms of sound quality, but I disagree. And I know, I have no experience with either, but I would like to think I have a good ear for music and hence, have noticed a difference. Or maybe its the different tuning between the different videos/sound clips I've heard!? hahah, man I need an oud NOW! I guess I was just too hopeful in having the best of both :( Hmmmmm..I guess as AYMARA pointed out, I would need to have both; if only the budget allowed for it.
Thanks again everybody, great comprehensive replies. Much appreciated.


Regards,


Saleh

fernandraynaud - 5-26-2010 at 06:29 PM

Well, Saleh, welcome! we will help as best we can. If you experiment with different reeshas, you can control the volume.

And there's always the option of enchanting everyone around you into loving the oud, so that it's not a problem. It (largely) worked in my case :D.

Aymara - 5-26-2010 at 11:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by OudSaleh  
Not a good start OudSaleh!


As you found out by yourself, you made a very good start by finding these forums ;)

Imagine you would have bought an oud, would have been disappointed and would have found the forums after that ... THAT would have been a bad start.

So I think the start is very good ... we can discuss anything in detail BEFORE you buy!

And when you look around the forums, you'll find out, that there are not only people like me, who plays oud since last November, but also absolute experts, be it players or luthiers.
Quote:
I guess as AYMARA pointed out, I would need to have both; if only the budget allowed for it.


Well, why not do one step after the other?

You might start with an electric oud and an audio interface for your PC, where you could plugin the oud and headphones ... I reported about my interface HERE ... I think such a PC interface is cheaper as a good amp with headphone output and it gives you the advantage, that you can record your playing too.
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  

And there's always the option of enchanting everyone around you into loving the oud, so that it's not a problem.


I think, this will be no problem after learning the basics ... as long as he is an absolute beginner, this is not likely.

So I would start with an electric oud and buy an acoustic oud later, after learning the basics, which will help to please wanted and unwanted listeners ;)

Another option would be starting directly with a good acoustic oud and searching for a place to practice, where there are no unwanted listeners ... maybe in the basement of the house?

But there's something else we should keep in mind ... an absolute beginner, who never played any instrument before, will need a teacher!

PS:
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
It (largely) worked in my case :D.


But don't forget, that you played bass, guitar and keyboards before, so YOU haven't been an absolute beginner. I think this makes a difference, don't you think so?

I can tell you something ... the daughter of my neighbours learns to play flute currently and she is an absolute beginner ... that can be a pain, yes it can :D

OudSaleh - 5-27-2010 at 02:50 AM
Quote:

And when you look around the forums, you'll find out, that there are not only people like me, who plays oud since last November, but also absolute experts, be it players or luthiers


Exactly the reason I joined :) I am truly humbled by the interest and passion shown in this forum :bowdown:

I think it is settled then; I'll get an electric oud and hopefully, be in a position not too long after that to play well enough and forcefully enchant everyone around me with my playing as FERNANDRAYNAUD put so well. Cant wait to introduce such an instrument to my friends here in the UK (I currently study here at Nottingham University) as they are all quite into their electric guitars and rock music. I'm a man of all genres and styles.

AYMARA, great point on having the pc software instead of an amp. as I was sort of worried about the overall costs such an endeavour would set me back, not to mention the added advantage of recording! Great post on your experience with them btw.

My overall problem is not knowing EXACTLY what the music stores at home (Oman) have to offer in terms of elec. oud choices, but that will be finally settled in a matter of days once I fly back by the end of this week. I realise there are plentiful of websites out there (which this forum has pointed out) but being the first, I got to feel it in my arms before buying it, not to mention having a store warranty :P

I am really excited, and you guys and this forum are only fuelling that desire even more!


Much appreciated,


OudSaleh

Aymara - 5-27-2010 at 03:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by OudSaleh  

Cant wait to introduce such an instrument to my friends here in the UK (I currently study here at Nottingham University) as they are all quite into their electric guitars and rock music.


Well, then a further advantage for the electric oud ;) ... search Youtube for a band called Speed Caravan to show your friends, how the oud can rock :airguitar:

BTW ... if you study in the UK, you should know of Michael Moussa, an Egypt oud luthier located in the UK. I'm not shure, if he also builds electric ouds, I fear he doesn't, but his acoustic ouds have a great reputation. So this information might become important later.
Quote:
great point on having the pc software instead of an amp


You'll need the audio interface too, not only software. I use a Tascam US-122 Mk II, which I got for 140 Euros. But there are several others availlable on the market, with similar features. Before you buy such a device, make shure, that the drivers of the manufacturer have a good reputation. Many drivers cause problems with Windows Vista and 7, especially the 64Bit versions.
Quote:
My overall problem is not knowing EXACTLY what the music stores at home (Oman) have to offer in terms of elec. oud choices, ...


Check it out and open a new discussion about electric ouds, where you could show photos and MP3 files of what you found. This might help to avoid buying "the wrong instrument".
Quote:
I am really excited, and you guys and this forum are only fuelling that desire even more!


Haha, you're not the first one, who got infected with the oud virus ;)

fernandraynaud - 5-27-2010 at 03:30 AM

Saleh,

The audio interface that's part of almost every motherboard is just about good enough to get started if you install a driver called ASIO4ALL, and set the DAW software to use that driver. You don't HAVE to start out buying an audio interface.

The point at which you truly benefit from a better audio interface usually works itself out over time if you start out with decent software. Aymara can tell you all about it, we use different software.

Aymara - 5-27-2010 at 03:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
You don't HAVE to start out buying an audio interface.


That depends ... most onboard soundcards don't have a line-in, only a microphone input, especially on notebooks. And you can't plugin the e-oud to the mic-input.

OudSaleh - 5-27-2010 at 04:00 AM

I see...then in my case have to get an audio interface as well since my notebook doesn't have a line-in input, and 140 euros ain't that bad to be fair. Nonetheless, thanks for the interjection FERNANDRAYNAUD.

I'll definitely look into taking pics.

Yes, Ive come across Michael Moussa in my research and have definitely made note of him, he seems to have excellent craftsmanship, very beautiful ouds indeed. Thanks for pointing it out.

Speed Caravan, very cool :cool:


Cheers guys,


OudSaleh

danieletarab - 5-27-2010 at 04:51 AM


Honestly I think that electric oud is very bad for beginners\ It's quiet bad in general, but I undertand it if you're and oud player performing with a noisy band (drums, el bass, keyboard etc..).
I think that for a beginner is VERY important to start to "understand" the instrument and the way it's supposed to be played with an acoustic one\
You can't really get the feeling of the oud with an electric one\
Electric ones are maybe good for those who already know how to play an oud, and they accept the compromise.

Dear friend, oud is not a loud instrument, especially if you get a cheap one (!)\ It's not like practising trumpet, drums or violin.

Maybe an acoustic one is not going to be such a big problem?





OudSaleh - 5-27-2010 at 06:18 AM

Thanks for the input DANIELETARAB

Although I cringe at the fact at coming to a realisation where my first oud would have to be an electric one instead of acoustic :mad: unfortunately, my circumstances don't allow for it;

Firstly, I plan on practising each day for a minimum of 3 hours and at night as I will be extremely busy through out the day.

2, my house back home is also filled with people who I know for a fact wont appreciate me practising for such a long time.

3, when I come back to the UK in a few months, I'll be living in an apartment with a very hard headed house mate in that he wont appreciate the music until I can actually produce music good enough to show my footing in this particular field/instrument. Moreover, I myself would not like to listen to a beginner practice over and over again as it can become annoying over time. Not to mention how in a way, I would like to seclude myself for a while, learn well enough, then announce my new acquired abilities to everyone. This will be a motivational challenge for me :)

4, there is also neighbors to think about, especially with specific laws regarding that, our tenancy obligations, etc. I just don't want to open any room for anyone or anything to hinder my learning experience, which I know will be effected if I choose otherwise.


I understand how it is not as loud as a trumpet or drums, but I would like to practice with the full range available and that would some times mean hitting the strings hard. But for now, all I am concerned with is handling a double stringed instrument and getting the proper finger positions, etc.

Quote:

DANIELETARAB: Electric ones are maybe good for those who already know how to play an oud, and they accept the compromise.


Completely logical, but the flip-side; electric ones are perhaps suitable for practice purposes for those who no nothing about it, but look forward to and aim only at playing acoustic when their abilities allow for it. Hahaha, I just realised... I guess I'll be learning the oud....twice!LOL! :shrug:


Regards,


OudSaleh





fernandraynaud - 5-27-2010 at 05:34 PM

Saleh, I was only partly joking when I suggested putting padding inside a normal oud. This would give you two birds with one stroke. If you get a shallow short scale oud for portability and comfort, then gently fill part of the bowl with sound-absorbing stuff, you can fully and reversibly adjust the volume.

Daniele is SO right. There's something important about feeling the instrument that is absent in a solid-body frame-only oud. Normally you hold the oud vertical, facing away, so that you play by feel and not by watching the fingerboard. I cannot imagine learning on a frame-only oud! The only electric oud I can imagine using is a (more expensive) shallow-body like the newest Sukar, the Yissi

http://cgi.ebay.com/Yissi-NEW-Pro-Flat-body-Turkish-Electric-Oud-Ud...

or the E-2000 at the bottom of the page here:

http://www.oud.net/electric.htm

Sazi - 5-27-2010 at 11:02 PM

But as you can tell in this recording, the new electric Sukar is not particularly quiet acoustically...

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10665&g...

The E-2000 is quite expensive. I don't like the plugged in sound of it myself, but that is just my personal taste, and could have had something to do with the gear it was plugged into.

Aymara - 5-28-2010 at 12:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by OudSaleh  

Firstly, I plan on practising each day for a minimum of 3 hours and at night ...

3, when I come back to the UK in a few months, I'll be living in an apartment with a very hard headed house mate ...


These are the facts, especially playing at night, where I would say an electric oud is the only way to go, though I understand Daniele's pro acoustic arguments.

But on the other hand ... let's compare with a guitar ... why should a beginner not learn guitar with an e-guitar?

I think, the first steps in learning oud are getting comfortable with the double strings and the fretless fingerboard ... you have to learn finding the notes and grip the strings precisely ... and I don't see a problem in doing this first step with an e-oud.

I think, the best our friend Saleh can do as a first step, is entering an oud shop in Oman and try both several acoustic and several electric ouds ... how they feel and sound.

The second step might be discussing THIS experience here in the forum, before he buys his first oud.

What do you think? Is that a "deal"? ;)

PS: There are VST plugins available for recording software like Reaper or Cubase, that simulate an acoustic guitar, when recording an e-guitar. Maybe these plugins work with an e-oud too to let it sound more acoustic? Too bad, that I don't have an e-oud available for such a test. I think this might be interesting for Saleh, because he will very likely be using his PC instead of an amp.

PPS: There's also a guitar effect device (Boss AC-3) on the market, that let's an e-guitar sound like an amped western guitar ... look HERE. It might be interesting, how it would sound like with an e-oud, that has nylon strings and not steel strings like an e-guitar.

OudSaleh - 5-28-2010 at 04:32 PM

Hello all,

Believe me, I completely understand the sacrifice I'm forcing upon myself but then again as I said before - and AYMARA - my circumstances don't allow for it, so since it comes down to it, and more importantly my desire to learn ASAP!, then it seems like I have no option, regardless of how padded down the oud is as FERNANDREYANUD mentioned. I truly appreciate your inputs guys, but also keep in mind how y'all are professional players and hence think of how your views might be influenced by your current subjective views, and not my objective, yet simple one.

Don't take it the wrong way, but please guys, as I do plan on continuing this awesome relationship with you all on such a basis, but I have set my mind on getting an e-oud. I'll say it again, I realise the 'mistake' I'm getting myself into, but as AYMARA mentioned, getting used to the generalities of the instrument itself in terms of playing the darn thing, at this point, is absolute and priority.

I definitely intend to post a thread (a few of them for that matter! LOL) on my experience(s) on both routes.

Regards,


OudSaleh

Aymara - 5-28-2010 at 10:30 PM

Hi Saleh!
Quote: Originally posted by OudSaleh  
I truly appreciate your inputs guys, but also keep in mind how y'all are professional players ...


Professional? Some, yes, but not all. The experience levels here in the forums are very different ... from real pro to absolute beginner. I myself started playing oud last November, but I played guitar before, so my progress is faster, as if it would be, when it would have been my first instrument. My main worry was, that it would take very long to get used to the fretless fingerboard, but I got used to it in two weeks ... not perfect until then, but good enough to have much fun. And this ... FUN ... is the most important thing, isn't it?
Quote:
Don't take it the wrong way, ...


There's no need for excuses ;)

In my opinion, the explanations of your situation stated clearly, that an e-oud is the only way currently. But I think the day will come, where you'll have the money for a second oud and that will be an acoustic, I bet.

But as an absolute beginner you should think of the way (the how) to learn. I think, you'll need a teacher. Did you learn to read sheets (notes) in school?

OudSaleh - 5-28-2010 at 11:29 PM

Hello,
Quote:

AYMARA: Professional? Some, yes, but not all. The experience levels here in the forums are very different


I'm sorry, I do realize that, I just meant the current contributing members in this thread. And you are right, there is no need for excuses.

Quote:

AYMARA: where you'll have the money for a second oud and that will be an acoustic, I bet.


NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!

As for learning to read sheet music, IT came across ME in school in a few grades over the years, but I never really took an interest and didn't care much for it so to answer your question...No.

So far, I am keeping my options open (whether I want to do this alone or not) because I do understand how some people HAVE done it alone and HAVE become quite proficient players in a matter of months as opposed to some who were taught by someone, taking them more time to reach that same level of proficiency.

BUT

One key option of mine which actually, might prove to be perfect in terms of learning on the acoustic, getting the feel for it, and practising on the e-oud when at home;

http://www.oud-ha.gov.om/2010/Default.aspx Not very updated website, but the video in the beginning gives a good idea of what they have in store.

I've already put in mind long ago to join the association well, basically this coming Tuesday. Oh, and it is free to join :) Then again, I will still have to see how big of a commitment this would be in terms of fitting it into my schedule, and whether they run courses at the moment anyways! and whether they will be able to supply me with an oud while I'm practising.

As oud hobbyists from around the world and of different cultures, what do you think of such a place? *bear with the arabic in the video, although the footage does give a comprehensive intro. of the association through video/pics. Sanctioned by the sultan's royal court a few years ago, I for one think its great. Very good and successful attempt at livening the instrument's tradition and modernity.

Regards,


OudSaleh

Sazi - 5-28-2010 at 11:47 PM

Wow! Interesting link. I never knew that site existed, great music at the beginning by the Syrian Maestro Husain Sabsaby, love it. (by the way, that's a floating bridge oud you hear there, (at the beginning) tuned usually fcgdCF or fcgdAF.)

It appears that the courses are held in Oman, I can't see mention of any on-line course. (but still looking)

Aymara - 5-29-2010 at 12:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by OudSaleh  
I do understand how some people HAVE done it alone and HAVE become quite proficient players in a matter of months ...


But I fear, nearly all of them played another instrument before.

On the other hand we shouldn't forget, that progress depends much on the individuals musical talent.
Quote:
As oud hobbyists from around the world and of different cultures, what do you think of such a place?


It makes me believe, I live in the wrong country ... LOL ... looks very promising.

Maybe we should mention a further approach of learning oud too: books and DVDs. FernandRaynaud can tell you more about that.
Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
I can't see mention of any on-line course. (but still looking)


Regarding online lessons I remember the young teacher from Cairo, who's also a member of the forums. If I remember it right, FernandRaynaud was happy with the lesson he got over Skype.

fernandraynaud - 5-29-2010 at 06:42 PM

Yes, I can definitely recommend him. I have been busy but plan to take more lessons with him. Anyone looking for lessons over Skype should contact him. He's young, he' flexible, you can find common ground very easily. He's on cairo time, 2+ hours from GMT.

He's Hassan Yousri

hassanyousri@hotmail.com

As far as DVD goes, OudProf's DVD called "Learn Maqamat on oud v2" is fantastic. It's more a practice and learning tool, like a handbook on DVD for your PC, than a movie. You can pop it into your PC, go to a maqam at random, spend some time immersing in the examples, and playing. There are little shorcomings, but overall it's a goldmine, it's been very useful and unquestionably worth the cost.

Of course, an electric oud is far better than no oud. That outfit in Turkey makes what appear to be good quality shallow instruments, I'd get that over a "skeleton oud" any day. It's the skeleton ones that provide the least "feel".

Of course an association like that one can probably help you in many ways. It looks like all government-sponsored efforts, start out well, take the grant, then lose a little focus; they probably need you (to justify their existence) even more than you need them. So let them help you! When you talk to them, discreetly ask them if people outside Oman can join and would we get a hat ? ;-)

Best of wishes on this new adventure!

OudSaleh - 5-30-2010 at 02:12 AM

Hey all,


I'm quite keen on the days to come :)

For starters, I'm beginning my journey to Heathrow airport then to Oman, in a few hours :bounce: Not to mention getting my very first oud :airguitar:

As for the oud association (unfortunately they don't provide online courses, for now maybe :shrug:? ) Thanks AYMARA, I looked into books/DVD's and although I'm not a fan of learning an instrument from a book, DVD sounds plausible and in particular what FERNANDRAYNAUD mentioned. Its ebay link and more elaborate explanation can be found here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260535217405...

In addition, I'll mention how the skype tutoring is quite a good idea. Not to say I'm interested, I just know I wont be able to afford it, regardless, a good contact for the future. Thanks AYMARA and FERNANDRAYNAUD :)
I believe the association came into conception when the sultan hosted and attended the first international oud 'festival' a few years back in Muscat (capital of Oman). If I have my facts straight I believe it w the first in the middle east and whether it is the first of its kind in the world, I'm also not sure. Anyone care to shed some light on this? (various videos available on youtube under 'Oman international oud festival' (the arabic variation "مهرجان مسقط عود" would give you a couple of other artists, the one in the 'dress' being one of my favourite players/singers, Abadi Johar.

So, I guess he got even more interested, and decided to instill it into the younger generation, not to say that there weren't already so many who played, professionaly or not, etc all over the country. Cool stuff.
Quote:

FERNANDRAYNAUD: discreetly ask them if people outside Oman can join and would we get a hat ? ;-)


To be fairly honest, I doubt it specifically since its capacity is initially limited, and its members and applicants must be waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond what they can handle. Not to say that who knows, someday maybe it will decide to open up its doors. I will nonetheless ask gladly.

As for the hat, how about this? I'm planning on coming to visit friends and close friends in California hopefully next summer of 2011, specifically around the bay area then northwards to Sonoma county. SO, if I do come around, with oud in hand of course, I would like to jam with you and I could get you a hat for you and your friends :) If you are interested, I can mail you one from here? set up an ebay account, etc? If interested, feel free to ask about them/price range/quality range/etc.


Regards,

OudSaleh

Aymara - 5-30-2010 at 03:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by OudSaleh  

For starters, I'm beginning my journey to Heathrow airport then to Oman, in a few hours :bounce:


Well, then have a nice travel. I think, we'll read us again, when you're in Oman.
Quote:
In addition, I'll mention how the skype tutoring is quite a good idea. Not to say I'm interested, I just know I wont be able to afford it, ...


His beginner courses cost 25$ per session of 1 1/2 hours ... maybe it's a good addition sometimes, when being back in the UK and get stuck in progress, after you learned the basics in Oman.