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Buzzzing problem

mrkmni - 6-6-2010 at 10:19 AM

What is your best guess for what causes the buzzing noize in my new oud ( sukar)?
thanks

Aymara - 6-6-2010 at 12:49 PM

Hi,

to answer this question, a bit more information would be helpful:

- which Sukar model?
- which strings and tuning?
- how high is the action at the neck/body junction?
- where exactly do the strings buzz (which string, which note)?

Or isn't it string buzzing and it's inside the oud?

fernandraynaud - 6-6-2010 at 02:45 PM

What Chris is asking is important, especially measure the height of treble and bass strings at neck-body junction. It's a matter of taste but many players like 2.5 mm on treble, maybe a hair more on the bass side. You measure to the bottom of the strings, like two US dimes stacked can slip under 2.5 mm without deflecting the strings. At 2.5 mm you will get a touch of a light buzz that's "timbral buzz", it's part of the character of the oud, especially Turkish ouds, not a malfunction. If you listen to some recordings, you know the diff. The factory strings are so bad you can't tell anything until you get some real strings on it.

But there is one thing you SHOULD do before changing strings. Tune it how you will be tuning it, the bizarre strings they ship with notwithstanding, and determine if yiu want more or less clearance at the neck-body junction. Loosen the bass string enough to get your hand in and adjust the butterfly nut inside against the neck. It normally takes 1/8 turn to move the action up or down a millimeter or so. Take it easy. Clockwise tightens, and tighter means the neck is pulled down away from the plane of the soundboard, so the action at the neck-body junction is lower. Counterclockwise is looser, the strings can pull the neck forward/up, so the action rises. It's amazing that only Sukar ouds use this simple mechanism that saves the owner so much gray hair.

Newcomers should know that ouds suffer from lack of adjustment on the action. The traditional avoidance of an adjustable saddle is justified, as a saddle unduly brightens the timbre. The truss rod, so useful on guitars, would not help the oud, as the truss rod shapes the catenary curvature of the neck, and oud necks are short, rigid and straight. The angle between the plane of the soundboard and the plane of the fingerboard, where they meet, is what needs to be adjusted. Over time, the soundboard sags or spoons, the bridge rises or sinks, and only a trip to a luthier equipped with powerful voodoo and frightening equipment will tear the neck from the oud and reset its angle. It's a little like Saint George and the dragon, or Salome with St John's head, or the orthopedist breaking the patient's neck so he can watch television again. With the Sukar mechanism -- a masterpiece of simplicity in line with Sukar's populist approach, implemented using a couple of nails and a bolt at the junction -- these dreadful neck jobs are a thing of the last. Even casual adjustments to tailor the timbre can be done in minutes. So sleep tight, unless there are loose parts rattling around inside, you will be safe. Everybody understands a butterfly nut.

The Faddi Matha design, the only other adjustable neck mechanism on the market, is more complex, equipped with TWO little gizmos to tweak, and an instructional video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s09aZgHejE8

If you pay close attention to the above clip, you will notice how the lower action brings out the "timbral buzz" which makes the oud sound more Turkish.

Indeed, if your Sukar buzzes, you can put on some lighter strings in the bass, tune it up to D, coat the fingerboard with the hardest finish you can muster, lower the action a hair below 2.5 mm and call it a Turkish, OR you can raise the action a bit and call it Arabic ;-) I suspect that the "compromise" 600 mm scale that Sukar seems to have switched to, is precisely in that flexible spirit. Given the difference in pricing between Arabic and Turkish ouds, the ability to transform your oud at will between the two types, is nothing short of a miracle.

-- "Ah, from your black hard case and your fez I see you have a Nomad triple soundboard Turkish oud there, young man, (Ka-Ching!) let me open my cash register and consult the duty tables!"

-- "Oh, no Mr. Customs Man, in your wisdom you surely can hear that this is a humble Kabaret El Fun I got on Muhamed Ali Street! (TripityTripity Plink) Listen to my version of Lissa Faker!"

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 09:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Hi,

to answer this question, a bit more information would be helpful:

- which Sukar model?
- which strings and tuning?
- how high is the action at the neck/body junction?
- where exactly do the strings buzz (which string, which note)?

Or isn't it string buzzing and it's inside the oud?

Hi Aymara,
- Model 1

- standard strings came with..

- Tuning: arab F GG AA DD gg cc

- mostly the gg string almost all the notes: free + fingered

- I thing the buzz is in the strings; i checked if there were someting not fixed inside, i did not find anything..

I posted the sound here and i will post more clear one:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10773

thanks

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 09:42 AM

I have a small distance beteen the strings and the neck; may be 1 mm ( I was with 1 cm with the other oud)
see the photo: the risha did not fall...
the distance between the bridge ( inside) to the nut is shown...

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 09:54 AM

another photos

Aymara - 6-7-2010 at 10:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni

I have a small distance beteen the strings and the neck; may be 1 mm ...

At the neck-body-junction, where you placed the risha in the photo?

If yes, than this is most likely the reason ... 1mm is too low ... try 2mm. Most people use 2.5-3mm to avoid buzzing.

I have 3mm on my oud, but would prefer 2mm. Too bad I can't ajust it as you.

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 10:19 AM

Yes Chris at the jonction, it is easy to play though..
how to high the strings 1 mm?

Aymara - 6-7-2010 at 10:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni

how to high the strings 1 mm?

With the neck screw inside the bowl ... read FernandRaynaud's explanations above.

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 10:29 AM

Iteresting discovery.. did not know about this before, and I am not sure I have on in my oud..
I will check; I need to remove the strings and get in my hand right?
thanks Chris and Fernand,
I am confused with this oud It is between arabic and turkish

Aymara - 6-7-2010 at 10:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni

Iteresting discovery...

Yes, that's one of the greatest advantages of sukar ouds.

Quote:

I need to remove the strings and get in my hand right?

It might be enough to loosen them ... check Fernand's explanations or ask him for further details ... he has the same oud

David.B - 6-7-2010 at 10:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

The factory strings are so bad you can't tell anything until you get some real strings on it.

Yes ! Change the strings !
Even with good brand new strings my Sukar buzzes. It needs a few days before it fits correctly. Also, always keep the butterfly nut screwed (better for the health of your oud).

At last, try the way I tie the strings, it will stop untimely buzzes (when it's a mess in the peg box or when the dead part of the strings on the bridge are too long)...

6090_1146227826731_1558601928_347687_4602541_n.jpg - 52kB

6090_1146227786730_1558601928_347686_6845486_n.jpg - 49kB

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 11:05 AM

Hi David, so you also have sukar oud, I am not alone

what do you mean by screwed? I have to loosen it a little to get some room at the jonction...
In my other oud I have your ties, also I was surprised by the arrangement of the strings in the peg box the cc goes at the extremity, should I keep it? or rearrange them as you?

What kind of string is the better for sukar, on ebay preferably?
thanks

Manil - 6-7-2010 at 11:27 AM

David,

You should shorten the length of your strings, I see way to much enrolled all over the peg, it can give you headache for tuning.

David.B - 6-7-2010 at 11:39 AM

Hi mrkmni,

By keeping the screw... screwed, I mean not unscrewed, you must have some tension to keep the neck strong (otherwise the junction will hurt).

I don't know about your peg box, mine is standard. What is important (to me) it's to start to tune on the G then c, D, AA, CC (skip the CC for yours) and at last FF : It respects the implantation of the pegs and you won't untune the AA strings, for example, if you tune G next because the AA strings are laid on the G ones...

David.B - 6-7-2010 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Manil

David,

You should shorten the length of your strings, I see way to much enrolled all over the peg, it can give you headache for tuning.

Yes, these photos are a bit old... Now I use Daniel Mari and the length is perfect ! Except for the CC which is a bit short.

mrkmni :

Try

http://ostriemusicsupplies.com/oud-strings.htm

Very good strings, except for the G.

Aymara - 6-7-2010 at 12:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni

What kind of string is the better for sukar, ...

Fernand also uses the Daniel Mari strings on his Model 1, but tunes to CEEAAddggcc.

I somewhere read of people being happy with Pyramid strings on Sukar ouds too.

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 05:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Manil

David,

You should shorten the length of your strings, I see way to much enrolled all over the peg, it can give you headache for tuning.

In case they cut, he has reserve

OK for Mari Danial strings, which ones arab or turkish?
I just unscrewed the butterfly, it was easy task, I can do it without loosening any string, it is amazing. I red a notice of the maker about this tip, i could not understand eventhough I read arabic well...
I loosened the butterfly , I could get only may be 2.3 mm , maybe with time it will bend because the oud spent almost 2 years untuned...
Thanks guys for the advise...

- Dear fernand: I am sorry, sometimes I do not read your lengthy paragraphs, they remind me the small-print contracts that come with credit cards...but I have to say that your writing is full of wisdom- Thanks

Aymara - 6-7-2010 at 11:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni

OK for Mari Danial strings, which ones arab or turkish?

Turkish string sets are designed for ouds with a string length of 58.5cm ... for a Sukar oud you definitly need the arab set, which is designed for string lengths between 60-62cm.

Quote:

..., I could get only may be 2.3 mm , ...

That should be a nice compromise between buzzing and playability.

fernandraynaud - 6-8-2010 at 11:23 AM

I am in central america. A noisy family was assigned the room NeXT to ours. I am playing the oud even louder to drive them away, so they ask for another room.

Sorry if I write long messages. I try to Include some useful information.

It looks like David's pegbox arrangement is the standard way. I think it is on oud cafe as photo as well.

My tuning is not the most common way, I am used to 6 string bass and having the 5th course as EE rather than FF let's me use it easier as part of the melody. Both 5th and 6th course are often retuned for different maqamat, nothing dangerous, CFF is OK, CEE is OK, your choice.

I never could figure out the diff between Mari Turkish and Arabic strings. Maybe you are right that it's the length.

It's strange that you cannot get more than 2.3mm height at the place where the neck and body meet. Of course if you had 1 mm it would buzz!

The neck will not bend. But if you gently pull the neck forward as you loosen the butterfly nut, it may settle a little higher. Don't leave the butterfly nut completely loose, the neck could take an unhealthy turn ;-) you should tighten until you feel it is pulling the neck, then pull gently on the neck and turn Back and forth, and feel the nut work against the pull of the strings, and tighten again and loosen again. You will start to feel it better. You want to leave it just a little looser than when it is pulling the neck down. You can gradually develop the feeling. Normally you should be able to get 1.5 mm to 5 mm string height adjustment exactly where your risha was not falling. 1.5 mm is buzzy, 5 mm is hard to play on.

mrkmni - 6-8-2010 at 05:05 PM

OK this is my peg box with black pegs ( in the photos)
I am going to buy Mari strings with ff.

Dear Fernand, enjoy your trip in Central America...did you bring a oud with you?

fernandraynaud - 6-8-2010 at 07:48 PM

Oh, yes, of course I have an oud! But I have not yet succeeded in driving the people in the next room away, though I'm playing louder and louder. I mean them no harm, all I want is for them to move to another room. There ARE other rooms.

I've gone through mind-numbing practice of several maqamat early this morning, it's probably just a matter of hitting the right one, it's like a dentist probing with a metal hook. Hijaz and Kurd and Nahawand and Saba have not done it. Then I had other more mundane things to do. Tonight I'm back on the project.

I can't remember the names as well as 'd like to, there's one I remember practicing that has has like a Hijaz leap, but with a couple quarter tones, and it's pretty anxiety-provoking to Western ears. To someone raised on Protestant Hymns and a little Frank Sinatra, it sounds like a minor scale when the capstan on the eight track has a bad spot.

I am going through the OudProf DVD to find it tonight. I can probably make up something savage to "sing" along with it ...

Yesterday I was waiting at the airport, and waiting, and waiting. And finally I broke down and pulled out the oud and started playing (quietly) in the Fox Sports Bar at the Phoenix Airport. Everybody was quite cool about it except one tough-looking guy, who was walking by on the way to his flight, and saw the oud and spun around like he'd seen the Devil. Then he looked at the slavic-looking guy playing it, and gave me strange look. Heh, Heh.

David.B - 6-8-2010 at 09:28 PM

Hey Tony, I can't understand your whole post (no time to check a dictionary) but Houzam and Sikah are very painful for western ears

mrkmni, when you cross the strings in the pegbox it might buzz...

fernandraynaud - 6-8-2010 at 09:58 PM

No need for detail, you got the general idea. Thanks for the suggestions.

But at the rate my oud is turning to compost (fumier), I may just have to leave it on their doorstep

Aymara - 6-8-2010 at 11:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

But I have not yet succeeded in driving the people in the next room away, ...

I think, you should start to sing ... as falsely as possible. Maybe get a bottle of rum, which will help a lot

But maybe you should choose a different room yourself ... that might be the easiest solution ... except you have fun with continueing your musical-psychological experiment

mrkmni - 6-9-2010 at 06:34 AM

Fernand,
I guess they say : what a strange man with a strange (ethnic) instrument?

mrkmni - 6-10-2010 at 01:58 PM

Based on this photo, http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10779#pid73...
What is the scale of the oud and can I tune it turkish and arabic?
I notice that it is not 58.5 nor 61.5 cm

Aymara - 6-10-2010 at 02:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni

What is the scale of the oud and can I tune it turkish and arabic?

In the photo you showed the string length to the front of the nut is 60.5cm, so you need an arab string set and tuning!

mrkmni - 6-13-2010 at 07:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Quote: Originally posted by Manil

David,

You should shorten the length of your strings, I see way to much enrolled all over the peg, it can give you headache for tuning.

What is the problem with the G string?
I have the same problem now. I tuned GGAADDggccff so I should have more tension in strings...than when I tune FGGAADDggcc for example.
It is pretty strange, the G has a wiered sound.
any advice?
tks

fernandraynaud - 6-13-2010 at 10:13 PM

mrkmni: I try to write in detail so you understand, sorry if it comes out long. Unless we are talking in different OCTAVES, my calculations in the other thread are reasonably accurate. I hope I clearly communicated that the way you have it tuned you risk destroying the oud very quickly. The problem with the "G" string is likely that it is severely damaged from 8-11 kg tension. That string should be tuned to B, C or at most D, not G.

Your oud scale is 605 mm? I don't see on the photos where you anchored the other end of the measuring tape, but it probably is. You can use the Mari strings (using the optional ff "course 0 mumtaz" strings for the 1st course) to tune it the way you have it now, your 6th course G string will come from the envelope marked 5th course, it will be something like a 0.033", and you will set aside the fattest string marked 6th course. In other words you add a thin course, and "shift" the other courses down in position. Course 0 goes where course 1 normally goes, course 1 goes to where course 2 normally goes, course 2 goes to the third notches, etc. This lightens the gauges and allows you to tune it a 4th higher.

OR you can set aside the ff course 0 and place the 0.025" course 1 strings normally in the top course, and tune it to cc, a normal Arabic tuning, with the other strings "shifted up a course" compared to the high ff tuning, so your bottom string will come from the 6th course envelope, it will be a 0.043", which you would tune to C. In this case you will not use the course 0 "mumtaz" ff strings, it's a standard tuning, standard strings.

Because your Sukar M1 is not 615, but 605 mm, it gives you a bit less tension, and you can pretty safely tune the instrument Turkish using the same string set, with the 0.025" course 1 strings in the top course tuned to dd. Everything will be positioned just as in the Arabic tuning, you will just be tuning it a whole tone higher in the high 4 courses, the 5th course probably F#F# and the 6th course probably D. I say "probably" as I don't play Turkish, and maybe they have other retunings for the bass strings.

Chris: with your shorter yet scale, there's no reason you can't tune yours Arabic OR Turkish with the same strings. Since you have doubts, you should go through the calculations until you are satisfied.

Look at Arto's string tension calculator, and work with Nylon first until it makes perfect sense to you. Nylon has a mass around 1010-1050 kg/cubic meter.

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/

Compare what you calculate with the actual data D'Addario's provides for Nylon strings.

Then plug some actual wound string data into it, like the D'Addario's data, and work backwards by trial and error to derive masses that "work". You will find that in practice wound oud strings act as if they had a mass around 4500-6500 kg/cubic meter. Different thicknesses will have different tightness of winding and thickness of wire, on a varying nylon core, so it makes sense that it's not always the same mass, as it is with a homogeneous material. You can develop a sense for how to raise and drop the mass to get your calculated data to agree exactly with the actual data D'Addario provides, but even if you don't adjust the wound string mass precisely, you can get quite close. You will then be able to plug any plain nylon or silvered copper wound string in and derive a credible tension at any scale length and tuning.

The last piece of the puzzle is that ouds don't like the 6 kg tensions that are common on Spanish guitars, let alone the 12 kg tensions common on Western guitars, and 4 to 4.5 kg is a reasonable ceiling. A common working tension is around 3-3.5 kg. Under 3 kg feels a bit loose, and 5 kg feels too tight. There's a lot of people agreeing with that. Lutes are usually strung even a bit lighter.

My Sukar Model 1 is 615 mm. I have had it tuned Turkish on standard strings, but if it were 600 mm or 585 mm I would be more comfortable leaving it tuned like that.

I had occasion to play a couple of the new Sukars with the 600 mm scale and factory strings. Apparently 600mm is Sukar's new standard. One of them sounded better tuned Turkish, the other sounded better tuned Arabic. The brighter one could be left Turkish or perhaps should use the ff tuning using the "mumtaz" strings.

I hope we can get on the same page here, so people are neither locked into packaged string sets, nor demolishing ouds.

David.B - 6-14-2010 at 09:52 AM

mrkmni:

I'm talking about the G strings for Daniel Mari in the Arabic set, I'm talking about the material. But FLIPAX had the same problem :

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9942

To be honest I haven't read it yet, but I've brought it to the fore...

mrkmni - 6-20-2010 at 08:44 AM

I ordered today the mari strings, of course with mumtaz ( which means excellent)...
It is said that it takes 2 to 7 days for shipping to Canada Qc..
Thanks guys for yout helpful advices.

fernandraynaud - 6-21-2010 at 02:10 AM

I'll be very curious how you like these with the high ff.

On your first course you'll put the Mari "course 0" Mumtaz 0.020" strings, and tune to ff. That will be about the same gauge you have on it now. That's the strange thing, that Sukar ships such a light string for the top course, and then he ships as much as a 0.050" for the bottom, which means that no tuning is going to work very well. That's probably how you got into trying to tune it high, because the top strings sounded flappy when you tuned them to cc.