Some upcoming performances for the Armenian Oudmaster himself!
See flyer below...
fernandraynaud - 8-7-2010 at 06:31 PM
Why does this unfortunate association of oud with tacky girly entertainment get perpetuated? To me it's as if Andres Segovia or Yehudi Menuhin were
advertised as performing with the "Somewhat Sexy Jewels of the Plastic Beaded Curtain".
Or am I the only person who finds belly dancing in bad taste?
spyros mesogeia - 8-7-2010 at 08:35 PM
I sure agree with you my friend....it's sadMike - 8-8-2010 at 09:52 AM
Where in that flyer does it make mention of the oud being "associated" with anything. The flyer says John will be playing oud and there will also be
bellydancing. It is a night of entertainment. I can't help it if you gaze upon that picture of female bellydancers and your mind immediately gets
titillated by sexual thoughts. If it offends you don't look and don't show up. myeyes2020 - 8-8-2010 at 12:35 PM
One may choose to see or not see an association. I choose to see the association and find it fortunate and pleasant. I find it to be a compliment
when anyone chooses to dance to music and or the oud and associate it in an advertisement.
The way I see it, it is the demand by dancers that promoted the production of many CD's and instrumental music and brought great fortune (not just
financial) to those whose musical talents were found worthy.
It's not that long ago that a dancer entered this forum looking for oud players and a few members jumped at the opportunity.
Here is a sample of John/dancer performance and I would have loved to see it live. It's fortunate that someone has the generousity to share this clip
live for anyone who may be interested.
Mike, I think you misunderstood my post. Sorry if I was unclear. I'm not "offended". Nothing "titillating" about these "somewhat sexy" women or in my
mind. But, let's look at this face-on, as Adel does. The flyer uses and furthers an association, in image and in text. It doesn't say John AND
dancers, it says WITH dancers.
I was asking if others find it in bad taste. Adel does not. I can completely accept that. To each his own. Maybe I underestimate the serious art in
belly-dancing, though I don't find the dancing clip Adel references on Facebook in the least bit interesting. But why would you say it's a matter of
"titillation"? If I were in LA I would go see John, regardless, though with some worry about the "Charlie's Lounge": how much of the evening will
actually allow me to hear john's playing without being drowned out by "entertainment": whistling drunks, feet stomping, shouting, raucous laughter,
clinking bottles. Does that make sense, can you relate to that concern?
I also feel that it demeans a master of an instrument with such a significant historical and cultural role to be promoted a part of dancing dinner
show entertainment. Of course, nothing wrong with having fun, violins and pianos are not demeaned by being used in the circus, and maybe Charlie's
Lounge is a class venue. But such Sheherezade images also continue to paint the oud as a third world accompaniment device, whereas i believe the time
has come to "market" the oud as a very serious (and very spiritual) instrument, strongest as a solo voice.
I would be happier to see a flyer that advertises "John Belizikjien, oud virtuoso, ethnomusicologist, composer and deep-soul meditation Sufi
levitating dervish Andalusian Armenian survivor music master." Ok, maybe not quite "levitating" ;-), and I hope you can appreciate the serious concern
behind the joke. Maybe that wouldn't sell as many dinners and drinks, but a concert and "depth" image might sell more tickets for a different, and
growing, audience, especially on college campuses.
But I am really curious how others see it. Surely we can see things in different ways without it being a problem.
fernandraynaud - 8-9-2010 at 10:51 AM
I apologize for making my points in perhaps too dramatic a way. John must have approved the flyer, and it's clearly up to him. I was not trying to
stress anyone or anything, but rather to open the subject of the oud's image among the Western public, which I hope over time will become more of a
"concert instrument". I was hoping to hear different thoughts on the subject. DoggerelPundit - 8-9-2010 at 12:17 PM
Considering that the ubiquity of Eastern music played for belly dancers has a long and wide tradition in the U.S. and elsewhere, it seems futile to
get exercised over its continuance in modern times. One need only think of the 1940s 8th Avenue scene in New York City, Buddy Sarkissian’s 1960s
revues in Las Vegas (featuring the very Cultural Richard Hagopian), the New England club scene of the 1960s and 70s, where the bands of George
Mgrdichian and Harry Minassian could be heard, etc. etc. and more etc. The Sultans recordings, featuring the uber-Cultural Omar Faruk Tekbelik, were
primarily for belly dancing. Even the redoubtable Farid al Atrache, needed such common themes in his films, to make his oud scenes possible; though
the acclaim of his live concerts is without question. Those comely young women in the poster could be the great grand-daughters of the women who
danced for these musicians.
Belly dance is a huge sub-culture, both in this country and internationally. The dancers are having a great time, and so are the audiences—club and
concert goers both. Between recordings and live performance, this sub-culture has kept many musicians busy—and paid—for many years. Might it be
said that this has provided a good part of the funding to drive the interest in the instruments? The preservation of the old and the building of the
new? In many cases the learning of the instruments? And, perhaps, a wider introduction to the “legitimate” concert side of the instruments?
IMO, John Bilizikjian is arguably the most successful of what might be called the commercial players. He has, along with those players-for-dancers
mentioned above, helped pave the way for the rest of us. But with him, that is only one facet. I suggest reading up on him. Hear him play Ottoman
classical sometime. Hear him play something—perfectly, note for note—along with a recording which is a few comas sharp to where he is tuned, and
all the opens must be fingered. Whew!
My two lira.fernandraynaud - 8-9-2010 at 03:21 PM
John is a great player, I've never questioned that, on the contrary. And commercial music has always been important. It's a fine line between "folk",
"commercial" and "concert" musics. In so many ways it's a matter of "packaging" and "marketing" that create an image.
What I'm wondering is whether it isn't time to deliberately promote the oud as a more "high-brow" instrument. Look at how the (classical) guitar has
benefited from such an "upgrade", even the name "Classical guitar" says a lot. That's one road to world domination for the oud. The Taqsim, and not
"beloved popular songs", or "belly dancing", makes a great vehicle for such a presentation. Another road is through youth music, like Speed Caravan --
go Mehdi!
In light of those two, isn't the belly dancing image limiting and retro?
spyros mesogeia - 8-9-2010 at 03:29 PM
Depends how you wanna see it.....
There are oudplayers of low level playing that do colaborations with belly dancers,so they can have the opportunity to play.
There are Good players that they want to play with belly dancers for commercial reasons.
There are also oudplayers that give concerts and all the people in front of them just hear the oud.
And there are also oudplayers that they play only to have fun,and people that hear them to have fun....The truth is that the belly dancing that is
here in the USA in majority,with a few exceptions is of very intermediate level....atleast what I saw the 7-8 months that I am here in the USA....
No offense guys,but 50-60 years old mamas can not stimulate me in any way to perform with imagination fernandraynaud - 8-9-2010 at 03:35 PM
Spyros, that's a detail I didn't want to focus on, but the belly dancing I've seen has been unattractive and "tacky", it's a good slang word to
describe something not in good taste. That doesn't help. SamirCanada - 8-9-2010 at 03:57 PM
Hold on a second,
because you have some hippies in california that take a belly dance class for a month and then go jiggle in front of uninformed attendees doesnt mean
we can call that belly dancing. I am sorry Fernand if thats your impression of it, you surely havent seen the real thing.
From what I can tell on the picture, these once arent soo bad. I have seen way worse anyways. And I am sure John made sure that they are dancers who
know how to dance which I must say, like Spyros said, is a minority in that part of the world.
Remember, that this isnt the way how it is everywhere else. In Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Egypt etc... in the clubs where belly dancing is allowed the
dancers are always extremely good and true beauties. One thing you have to remember, if your playing music for a certain ethnic diaspora (armenian,
lebanese etc...) in a restaurant setting. You better make it a party and you better have a belly dancer or you will have a bad night.
Regardless, John accomplished so much in his days as a musician so if he feels like playing the oud with these ladies then who are you to say
otherwise? Plus what makes him even better is that he can play amazing improvs AND he has a deep repertoire.
Start playing taqasims for a hour uninterrupted in that kind of setting and the place will be empty before you know it.
fernandraynaud - 8-9-2010 at 04:09 PM
Ah ... "that kind of setting". OK. But where are the other settings?
And it's true, I've never seen good belly dancing. Maybe if the dancers were great I'd see it a little differently. spyros mesogeia - 8-9-2010 at 05:26 PM
What I wanna say is that what I have seen here has nothing to do with dancers dedicated to the art,and to respect the aspect.House keepers that they
have nothing to do,take some lesseons of belly dancing,they do a tatoo,also some belly dancers cloths and they start to go dancing to any kind of
festivities for free to any possible place you can imagine...pleeeeeeeeease man.I just can't stand that anymore,and believe me,I live in
Maryland....But ofcourse there are some teachers,not performers anymore[that is the diference] that they are great teachers...myeyes2020 - 8-9-2010 at 05:48 PM
Keeping in mind that they are performing in a family setting, here are the dancers in the advertisement.
I think they are very good!SamirCanada - 8-9-2010 at 06:00 PM
Its supply and demand my friend, you can play in a restaurant party every weekend if you wanted but obviously you cant do a sit down concert every
weekend. Not commercially viable.
If the dancers were great? Fernand my friend, you havent seen the said dancers. how do you know how they dance? I am not saying that they are good but
at least give them the benefit of the doubt if you have never seen them.
The other point is, in this type of party setting which is probably more aimed toward the diaspora, it is totally appropriate to advertise a legendary
oud player will be present at this party and will be accompanying belly dancers. Actually, its pretty rare to see a oud player by himself headline
the music of an event like this. Usually you have band with a name like the oriental stars or something.
Spyros: I agree with you but what can I say... this is America. It is what it is... Belly dancing has become a fad activity that western women take in
their spare time without much knowlege of the true essence. Same goes for the audience, they clap and encourage what they see without really knowing.
You cant blame the audience entirely though since they have sometimes no choice to support it... especially if its their wife up there.
If you have a chance to come up to Montreal, you can occasionally get a good display of what true belly dancing is.fernandraynaud - 8-10-2010 at 12:15 AM
"And it's true, I've never seen good belly dancing. Maybe if the dancers were great I'd see it a little
differently."
I wasn't saying anything about THESE dancers, what I meant that if the belly dancers I that had seen were great I might see the whole
issue differently. A huge problem for dancers is that we are very sophisticated in the visual domain; the public has been watching very professional
dancers in painstakingly edited music videos, with perfect teamwork & synchronization, great costumes, lighting and moves, and these standards are
truly hard to meet.
spyros mesogeia - 8-10-2010 at 04:48 AM
I will come one day Samir,I promisefernandraynaud - 8-10-2010 at 12:57 PM
Someone will always rise to the challenge. Here is belly dancing for the MTV generation, i wouldn't feel embarrassed playing for one if these
productions. Maybe it IS a matter of perceived quality. Look at some of the other clips from the same uploader:
The reality is that the perception by the Western public is that Arabic music (perhaps as well as other Eastern music) is that stuff that you hear in
the background in nightclubs behind the dancer.
This topic reminds me of an old Egyptian movie (I forgot it's name).
A poor tabla player believes he can put on a show and people will line up to see him. He realizes that if he can bring on a dancer, then that would
attract more people. So he takes this shy young pretty innocent shy lady and teaches her to dance. He drills her day and night till she drops and
finally gets it. They put on the show and sure enough they draw a crowd. He collects the fees, lives the good life and gives the dancer a meager
salary. When she really gets good and confident and realizes her self worth, she questions him about splitting the fees. Naturally, he tells her that
he is the whole show and she is secondary, that the real attraction is the tabla and not the dancer. When he accepts her challenge to part ways, she
becomes the primary collector of fees, and pays the tabla players a secondary wage. Of course she lives the wealthy good life and mean while the
protagonist tabla player performs to a little to no audience and loses his lifestyle. He goes back to beg the dancer to resume partnership because
she owes him and he "made her who she is today." She ignores his plea and at the end of the movie the bouncers literally throw him in the street
wounded disheveled and poor.
Someone will always rise to the challenge. Here is belly dancing for the MTV generation,
Many if not all Middle Easterners would not consider this tribal fusion as "belly dancing" at all. In fact we refer to the dance as "raqs sharqi" or
Eastern Dance. I believe its the French who re-named this dance "belly dance" so belly dance became synonymous with "raqs sharqi." While tribal
fusion does have it's place, the powers that be in America made it a "type" or category of belly dance or even a "modern" form of belly dance.
So I'm not sure if you perceive this as representative of belly dance but as an Egyptian, I believe I speak for most Egyptians, if not for the rest of
the Middle Eastern community, when I say this is not the "belly dancing" that is representative of the Middle East.fernandraynaud - 8-10-2010 at 06:41 PM
I don't know what style is authentic anything. As I looked at several of these clips, I was mainly impressed by the quality of the production, the
lighting, the studied moves and competent synchronization of dancers. Dance styles change. If this is a new direction, so be it. It's the tacky
costumes, unattractive dancers and nil production that make typical American "belly dancing" impossible to enjoy.
