Mike's Oud Forums

How many different types of oud are there?

jdowning - 10-30-2010 at 12:28 PM

How many different types of traditional (fixed bridge) oud are there and how do they differ from each other? What are their distinguishing features?

Are 'Arabic' and 'Turkish' style distinct types of oud?

For example, how does a 'Syrian' or 'Egyptian' oud differ from an 'Arabic' or 'Turkish' style oud - are they a unique category of instrument or just ouds that happen to have been made in Syria or Egypt?

ameer - 10-30-2010 at 09:21 PM

One way (though not the only way) to look at it is a matter of bowl size and resulting bassyness. The typical continuum goes Syrian->Egyptian->Turkish where the former two are closer to each other than to the Turkish style. Syrian ouds more than any other are more comfortable tuned down a halfstep or even a wholestep compared to Arabic standard because the brightness of the lower-tension strings uniquely compensates for the extreme bass of the oud. Turkish ouds really shine at the higher pitch of Turkish standard where their form of brightness which is based more on the oud's smaller body really stands out. Egyptian ouds have an interesting middle ground; there are those that sound more Turkish or Syrian but all in all they manage to slip right through the middle of the two extremes. This is derived strictly from my playing and generalizations from what I've read which is nowhere near accurate enough to count as scientific.
Then too you run into other categories such as Lebanese, Iraqi, etc which I have not played enough to generalize in any way so this continuum tends to break down when you plug them in.

jdowning - 11-1-2010 at 12:00 PM

Thanks ameer.

So, if there are only two main categories of oud - 'Arabic' and 'Turkish' (essentially based upon how the instruments are tuned and their relative tonal pitch) each type of oud should fall into either one or the other. A 'Syrian' or 'Lebanese' style oud might, therefore, be classified as a sub category of an 'Arabic' oud? Are there any such sub categories of the 'Turkish' oud?

Is it possible to tell the difference between say a traditional Lebanese oud and a traditional Syrian oud or between say a Syrian oud and Egyptian oud from their outward physical appearance? If so, what are the unique defining characteristics of each type? Is it a combination of relative string length, bowl dimension and geometry, materials of construction, unique decorative features etc?

As I understand it a traditional Turkish oud can be made in four sizes - 'girl', 'woman', 'boy' and 'man' - with string lengths ranging from 54cm to 58.5 cm. (but all with the same relative geometry scaled accordingly). I have not had time to investigate Turkish oud geometry in detail but at first glance it seems uniquely different from say the typical profile of an early Nahat oud.

Another category of oud that is of interest historically is the Tunisian 'oud al-arbi' having features that may relate to a much earlier period in the development of the oud (and lute of the 16th C). For example it has four courses and is fretted. The sound holes (either 1 or 3) are 'cut in' to the sound board (like a lute). The finger board is proportionally longer (like a lute) than on an 'Arabic' or 'Turkish' oud. The ends of the bridge terminate in a decorative feature ('mustachio') similar in design to a lute bridge.
There is a very nice and interesting blog by Mouats Hafid of Skikda, Algeria, that gives (among other things) a lot of detail about the 'oud arbi' (and its related instruments). It is in French.

http://diapasondeskikda.blogspot.com




ameer - 11-1-2010 at 03:33 PM

I have not heard of any size classifications for Arabic ouds like the ones you describe. If I had to pick a visible attribute to distinguish between a Syrian or Egyptian style oud It would be bowl depth/width. Egyptian bowls tend to be shallower if you're looking down through the sound holes from above and they will likely be longer in the direction parallel to the strings. Syrian bowls will tend to be deeper and more squat. The result that I find particularly noteable about this is that I like the sound of playing towards the center (as opposed to playing right near the bridge) better if I'm playing an Egyptian over a Syrian style oud.

paulO - 11-1-2010 at 06:53 PM

Two -- Good and Bad.

Cheers..PaulO

fernandraynaud - 11-1-2010 at 10:20 PM

A little detail I happen to appreciate a lot: I have 3 ouds made by Ibrahim Sukar's in Aleppo. One is a 615mm Arabic. But the other two are newer instruments with 600 compromise mm scale, but a full-sized body. And here is the interesting thing. They have an adjustable action because there's a threaded rod that allows slightly pulling the neck down out of the plane of the soundboard, or released so it rises. An unexpected result is that the instruments take on a more Arabic timbre and character as the action is raised, and a more Turkish one as the strings are lowered. If the 3rd course is lightened a bit and the tuning pulled up to D, the transformation is of course more convincing. It's not quite complete but uncannily effective nonetheless. It has a lot to do with the slight buzz of the lower action, but there's more to it. As to why, I rather believe that being based in the North of Syria, Sukar would make instruments that, although fundamentally Arabic/Syrian, can also appeal to Turkish players, who would naturally set the action as low as possible. Take it for what it's worth, and dismiss it if you think it's a placebo effect, but I'm very happy with it. You can hear a bit of a similar effect on YouTube where the high vs. low action of a Faddi Matta adjustable action oud is demonstrated.  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s09aZgHejE8&feature=youtube_gdat...

ameer - 11-2-2010 at 08:18 AM

Interesting. To my ear the higher action boosts the low mids and perhaps the lows a little as well. This corresponds with a recent experience of mine: last week I was making a new saddle for my Shehata which has an acoustic guitar style bridge setup and when I first tried it the saddle was too high for comfort and the low mids really stood out in comparison to when I brought it down a bit.

P.S. I now want a Fadi Matta. Thanks for renewing my gear acquisition syndrome.

jdowning - 11-2-2010 at 12:34 PM

The 'low' (Turkish) versus 'high' (Arabic) action demonstration noted by fernadraynaud is interesting. Low action here being about 2mm (?) compared to about 3mm for an 'Arabic' oud. Some mediaeval/renaissance gut strung harps were fitted with 'bray' pegs that were set to just touch the strings at the sound board to produce an amplified, sustained 'buzzing' sound that was popular in those times. Possibly an historical connection with sounds heard from instruments of the Middle East such as the oud in the 'mediaeval' Byzantine period?

A preliminary check of some 'old' Turkish oud images suggests that the geometric profile of the upper part of the sound board conforms to a very early geometry dating from the 13th/14th C. (more about this on the 'Old oud compared to Old Lute Geometry' thread on this forum - as data comes to light).

'Egyptian' oud geometry with its more elongated 'almond' shaped profile will be subject to a separate investigation. However, at first sight, the traditional geometries of Syrian - Egyptian - Turkish ouds would appear to have a very similar counterpart in the European lutes of the 14th - 17th C. In this case the historical time sequence (based upon lute geometry) might be Turkish (earliest) - Syrian/Egyptian (latest).


tchandler - 11-2-2010 at 12:51 PM

wouldn't we want to say that floating bridge ouds occupy a separate territory? They could be viewed as Arabic, but the feel and sound really is dramatically affected by the bridge.
tom

jdowning - 11-2-2010 at 01:38 PM

Yes it does, but the so called 'Iraqi floating bridge' oud is a 'modern' invention (dating to the mid 20th C) so probably has little, if any, connection to early traditional oud design or development.

jdowning - 11-6-2010 at 12:44 PM

Another traditional feature of Turkish style ouds would appear to be lightness of construction (like a lute but unlike an 'Arabic' style oud).

Many of the famous oud luthiers would appear to be of Armenian origin. I am not sure if there is a unique "Armenian" style oud as the surviving late 19th C/early 20th C ouds by the Armenian makers would appear to be either 'Syrian' or 'Turkish' in style (judging from the geometry).

Check out:
http://www.varjouds.com/armenian_oud.htm

suz_i_dil - 11-9-2010 at 05:06 AM

I'ld like to ad a feeling I have while listening to Simon Shaheen Nahat, the one with the extended fingerboard.
I never tried it of course, but while listening recordings I really feel the sound of my arabic oud made by Faruk Turunz being near of it.
So an arabic bracing oud with turkish features such as lightness of construction? Bowl shape? To my point, maybe another type of arabic oud you can take in consideration.
What you think?

jdowning - 11-9-2010 at 05:55 AM

I suppose that what I am looking for are distinct traditional forms of the oud that might perhaps identify their place of origin - Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Egypt etc.

Modern ouds (say from the late the 20th C) are more likely (I suspect) to be modifications of traditional forms so may not be good examples to use for this more restrictive objective.

I am curious about the extended fingerboard feature of some ouds as this might be one identifying feature of an oud type. I was under the impression that extended fingerboards are generally set flush with the sound board surface (so are the same thickness as the sound board) - rather than being raised above the sound board surface (as on a guitar).

suz_i_dil - 11-9-2010 at 01:33 PM

I understand better your search.

But don't you think a family like Nahat may has been influenced by turkish way of making oud?
Do we know in the history of this family who learned them to make ouds?
You are right when saying now modifications and influences are likely, but we can easily imagine those were usual also at the last century, moreover when Syria was part of Ottoman empire.

Just a thought anyway...I cannot help you more ahead in your search!

Regards


fernandraynaud - 11-9-2010 at 04:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ameer  
Interesting. To my ear the higher action boosts the low mids and perhaps the lows a little as well. This corresponds with a recent experience of mine: last week I was making a new saddle for my Shehata which has an acoustic guitar style bridge setup and when I first tried it the saddle was too high for comfort and the low mids really stood out in comparison to when I brought it down a bit.

P.S. I now want a Fadi Matta. Thanks for renewing my gear acquisition syndrome.


Yes, his instruments look wonderful. Let me know when you tire of yours.

Another feature of the truly hardcore "homesick" sound of an old-fashioned Egyptian (?) type oud, is a sort of reflection/echo that phase-cancels the fundamental after a slight delay, so the timbre changes almost step-like say 30-50 mS into the note. Anyway, that's what a spectrogram looks like. This gives the impression of a much shorter envelope (though it's not really that) and complements the "hocketing" style of playing, a little like playing along in sync with a delay-line. Raising the action doesn't quite do all that, so the "Arabic" impression is not of the Riyad Al Sunbati type.

ameer - 11-9-2010 at 06:07 PM

The key to sunbati is to play towards the center of a relatively elongated oud with nylon trebbles including the third. That'll also get you to players such as Abdel Wahab and Wadi El Safi who also played towards the center. It never works on an oud like a Sukar or my Shehata but on my Gamil Georges I get this hybrid Sunbati/Wahab sound that I love. An action boost to me is most useful if you're a Farid El Atrash or Simon Shaheen type player where you play close to the bridge; that's when the mid boost becomes most noticeable.
I've found that the optimal stringing for my Shehata is nylgut trebbles including the third and standard Dadario basses. With that I can almost nail this sound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prr7p2ZEINI
It works best on a rather bassy oud; on my Georges nylguts sounded relatively bad but it took to nylons right away. Whenever there's an oud meeting we both can make I'll have to show it to you in person.

Brian Prunka - 11-9-2010 at 07:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
I suppose that what I am looking for are distinct traditional forms of the oud that might perhaps identify their place of origin - Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Egypt etc.

Modern ouds (say from the late the 20th C) are more likely (I suspect) to be modifications of traditional forms so may not be good examples to use for this more restrictive objective.

I am curious about the extended fingerboard feature of some ouds as this might be one identifying feature of an oud type. I was under the impression that extended fingerboards are generally set flush with the sound board surface (so are the same thickness as the sound board) - rather than being raised above the sound board surface (as on a guitar).


I know that the extended fingerboard on Simon's Nahat oud is set on top of the soundboard, not flush. It wasn't originally extended, though: it was a later modification.

Someone who has one can give us a definitive answer, but I seem to recall that Turunz sets his extended fingerboards on on the soundboard also . . .

I think that most modern ouds fall into the "Arabic" and "Turkish" categories. The operating difference to me seems largely to be a difference in the thickness of the face (and possibly the robustness of the bracing), with Turkish ouds being thinner-faced and more lightly braced.

It seems the very old Arabic and Turkish ouds were more alike, and have deviated in opposite directions from one another. The Arabic ouds have emphasized the punchy midrange, the Turkish the clear highs and softer attack.

Turunz is an interesting case, since I think he really falls into neither camp. I have a lot of respect for his instruments, since he seems to have reevaluated the ouds' potential sonic capabilities and developed his own sound (which captures a lot of the most attractive aspects of both styles).


Sazi - 11-9-2010 at 08:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
I was under the impression that extended fingerboards are generally set flush with the sound board surface (so are the same thickness as the sound board) - rather than being raised above the sound board surface (as on a guitar).


Hi John, both of my older ouds with extended fingerboards (Syrian and Iraqi, fixed bridge) had the surface flush with the face, the face itself being cut away to the edges of the fingerboard.

All 3 of my current long fingerboard ouds have the fingerboard on top of the face.

Perhaps the change was for a number of reasons, - besides easier construction. I had problems with the glue joints where the soundboard joined to the fingerboard. I've seen the same problem with other older ouds using the same (traditional?) methods of construction.

suz_i_dil - 11-10-2010 at 11:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  
Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  


Someone who has one can give us a definitive answer, but I seem to recall that Turunz sets his extended fingerboards on on the soundboard also . . .



Indeed the fingerboard is set on the soundboard.

jdowning - 11-10-2010 at 01:38 PM

suz_i_dil - while I have to agree that oud design certainly did evolve over the centuries (as it still does in the modern world), I am hoping that it will eventually be possible to identify the geographic origin of older ouds by their geometry together with other details such as rosette design etc. It is 'early days' yet and much more comparative and investigative work has to be done before any kind of firm conclusion might be drawn. However, a preliminary examination of some of the early Nahat oud geometries (those made in Damascus) based as they seem to be upon a 3:4:5 Pythagorean triangle geometry, suggests that they were not influenced by traditional Turkish oud design that may be based upon a much earlier geometry dating to at least the 14th C.
Sazi - my old Egyptian oud also has an 'extended fingerboard' set flush with the sound board surface (so less than 2mm in thickness). This is certainly a weak point in the sound board but is probably of little consequence in that area as the 'inlay' is usually supported by the neck block and two braces (with paper reinforcement underneath). However, one has to wonder what is the purpose of this extension?