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about to live an study oud in Lebanon

michoud - 7-16-2011 at 05:18 PM

Hi all!!
I want to go to Lebanon to live about one year to study oud.
I was living in Syria until 3 weeks ago...but I came back to Spain due to the country´s current situation.
So I decide to try to go to Lebanon...

I have some questions about it, maybe someone can help me

1º WHERE ???
Beirut or Tripoli???

2º LIVING COSTS (Beirut & Tripoli):
I want to rent an apartment in a normal area, not the poorest and not rich) or rent a room in appartment with other people, students, or something like that, HOW MUCH??I have not much money

What about the food?? I want to cook in my home... and maybe someday I´ll eat in a restaurant, but I ussually prefer, traditional restaurants where the Lebanese people eat...
How much money I must have to live there per month (minimun) I have not a luxury life at all

3º WORK IN LEBANON
Maybe I need to work there, I can teach spanish language (private lessons or something like this, I had a little experience teaching spanish in Western Sahara)
Do you think I can find enough students to have money to live there each month??
How much can I ask for each student per hour or per course??
I know about all this questions in Syria, but in Lebanon...

4º TEACHER
Where is the best place to study oud or where can I find a good teacher?? How much per lesson (private lesson) or how much to study in an academy or institute of music?
Please some names of oud players who teach oud??

Many thanks to all who can help me!!

michoud - 7-20-2011 at 08:04 AM

:wavey:

Nobody can help me?? nobody in this forum is from lebanon???

ALAMI - 7-20-2011 at 02:33 PM

Dear Michoud,
You're talking about Lebanon, so it is a bit complex, the answers won't be yes or no

Beirut is an expensive city, to give you an average, it is more expensive than Munich, Montreal ot Los Angeles.
Ref from a recent article in Beirut Daily Star

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Business/Lebanon/2011/Jul-18/Beirut-ran...

Tripoli is way cheaper and more authentic city, but you have to expect a totally different lifestyle than the one you could have in Beirut. So it depends on your taste. I love Tripoli, I was born there, but nothing much is going on there, no real night life and no real communities of expats,
Beirut is a big city that lives in the night, people are more multilingual and multicultural a lot of things are happening all the time, musically, culturally.

Food is good, this is something not to worry about, you'll gain weight for sure.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but I'd advise you not to count on living from teaching Spanish, it is taught in many schools and the Cervantes Institute is very active here. You may still get a student or two but not enough to make a living.

In Beirut private oud lessons would be for 15/20 $ / hour but making a long term deal with a oud teacher would be possible.
There are some institutes that are more oriented towards oriental music teaching and not specific instrument oriented like the Antonine University and the USEK (université Saint-Esprit Kaslik), do you speak French?

As an average I think you should account for 1500-1800$ per month for Beirut
And may be around 1000-1200 for Tripoli.

Good luck,

michoud - 7-21-2011 at 09:28 AM

Dear Alami
Thanks for the info.
The life style I prefer, is Tripoli style, I don´t care about night life...and I prefer to enjoy my time with lebanese people than with expats...
When I was living in Syria, I was living first in Homs and after in Aleppo, both very different than Damascus with more night life etc etc and I love this kind of places.
I don´t speak french, just spanish, english and a little bit of arabic ( syrian dialect, I think very similar of lebanese...no?
In Tripoli...can I find more students than in Beirut? I know there is only Cervantes institute in Beirut...so maybe...in Aleppo I had more chances to teach spanish than in Damascus, because there is not Cervantes in Aleppo...
Is there any other city to bear in mind in Lebanon?? for example, when, long time ago I asked about Syria, all people told me about Damascus and Aleppo, but I went to
Homs, which is cheaper and quiet than the other cities...so maybe there is another city you can recommend me...
Thanks again Alami!

ALAMI - 7-21-2011 at 12:34 PM

So if you're for the kind of simple, popular and authentic lifestyle, you'd enjoy Tripoli.
You have to know that Tripoli is in fact two cities, connected but somehow different: Tripoli and El Mina (the port), each has even it's own different municipality. El Mina is a real Mediterranean town that smells fish, it has a small beautiful old city. Saliba Al Qatrib, one of the greatest oud players of all times, comes from there. People there like to eat and drink and make jokes, it is a multi confessional town with many small mosques and churches. An address to remember: Abu Fadi, the best fish sandwiches in Lebanon.
Tripoli is the big city with it's modern and old parts. The modern part is made of big buildings, ugly for most of them. The old city is very large and very old, there you'll need all your Arabic, the dialects are very similar to Syrian in vocabulary but the intonation is different. You may find very cheap places to stay there but the infrastructure is in very bad shape in terms of water, electricity and services.
People are poor but very kind and helpful and they love foreigners as long as "they behave". If you lived in Homs, you know what I am talking about.
I think there is no Cervantes in Tripoli so you may be able to find some students.
I don't know any oud teacher in Tripoli but one of our friends here on the forums who's also a great player, learned oud in Tripoli years ago, he may still know someone.
If you decide to go there, drop me a word.

michoud - 8-19-2011 at 09:30 AM

Hi Alami.
I was thinking a lot about to go to Lebanon...I will try to go in November, I need sometime to save money and after inshalla I´ll go there...so if in this time you have any info about opportunities there in Tripli to teach spanish and about an oud teacher it will be great for me.
Also if you can in this time to accurate a little bit about "cheap prices to stayin the old town of Tripoli", it will help me alot to know how much I need there...
What you said about Tripoli...this is my city man!! I know what you were talking about, and that is what I like.
I have no problems at all about the infrastructure in terms of water, electricity and services, I´m used to it
So..inshalla I´ll visit you in few months when I´ll be there.
Thanks a lot!

SamirCanada - 8-19-2011 at 10:58 AM

I will be in Lebanon from Sept 6 to Sept 18. if anyone wants to get together for some good food, music etc... let me know

suz_i_dil - 8-20-2011 at 04:19 AM

Hello Michoud,

I think you should contact Mustafa Said. He is a great teacher, and works in Antonine university. Even if you don't decide to stay in Beirut he may have contacts to recommend you in others lebanese cities.

You can reach him via facebook. If you don't have fb I'll ask him if he doesn't mind I send you his email.

Best wishes in your project

michoud - 8-20-2011 at 09:06 AM

Hello suz i dil, thanks for your info...yes I have facebook so I´ll try to contact him...if I can´t I´ll tell you....
thanks again!

bulerias1981 - 8-21-2011 at 07:19 AM

Hi there. I lived in Lebanon to study oud for 6 months. This was last year. I loved it and hated it there at the same time. But in short, I can say its very expensive. I went there to study at USEK in Kaslik with Charbel Rouhana and Ghada Shbeir as a 3 year degree for oriental musicology. Due to Lebanon being so expensive and running out of money (I couldn't find work to sustain a living) I had to return to the U.S. I won't say how much money I brought with me, but I thought it would be enough, and in just 6 months it was almost all gone.. and thats with spending as conservative as I could.

What was so expensive? I was living in Jounieh. The rent, the electricity (even though it rarely worked), internet and food. I did find a roommate that loved music, so that made things easier. If I didnt find him, maybe I would have had to leave in 4 months.

I'm not saying its impossible. I was only sharing my experience. Contact me @ bulerias81@gmail.com if you want more details of my trip there.

David.B - 8-22-2011 at 02:45 AM

Really interesting topic, I wish you the best for your project michoud. Please give us some feedback.

Benjamin - 8-22-2011 at 09:59 AM

Dear Michoud,

Actually I had my first real oud lessons in Lebanon. I was in Beyrouth for one month, it was in September 2002 and I managed after 10 days of hard searching to find a very nice teacher from the Conservatory of Beyrouth. He agreed to give me private lessons everyday. I only played day and night and only studied.

This man is named Georges Roufael, and he was very nice with me. If you go in Beyrouth, just go to the conservatory and try to pick one teacher or get his phone number. I used to speak half French half standart Arabic with him. So if you speak at least French or Arabic this will make you things easier.
You can of course look for Charbel Rouhana, but I don't know if this so famous and great oud player will have time for you.

After years of studying oud howewer, I think Lebanon is not the best place to go for that (but you can still discover the country) but still you can learn a lot. Especially Beyrouth which is quite expensive, and I had much trouble to managed even to eat there... I you consider studying turkish oud you can go to Turkey as well, with plenty of oud teachers there.

It was almost ten years ago. I don't know what is Lebanon today, and maybe I was young and with no money lol. And prices maybe changed a lot, I just don't know. 10 years may be a lot in this country.

Hope my little experience helped you!

Benjamin

ALAMI - 8-22-2011 at 11:53 AM

Looks like everybody agrees that Lebanon, specially Beirut, is expensive.
That's true, the last two years things have become even more expensive, specially housing, communications and restaurants.

People have also become more wild, brainless consumers, it is happening everywhere but somehow it seems more pronounced in Lebanon. A society heading towards only rich and poor with no in between. People somehow think that the worst may happen tomorrow so let's have the maximum today, a maximum of money, drugs, sex, cars, cellphones, brands, parties... And also some obtuse, Pre-canned, radical political or religious ideas.

Oudists know the value of simple things, the oud reminds them everyday how a few cheap pieces of wood glued together with art and love can hold an inestimable value.

I don't know if Lebanon is a good place to learn oud, but it is an interesting experience, I understand when Bulerias says he loved and hated Lebanon, I think we all do.

Samir, drop me a u2u when you're in Beirut. Am not far from Ain El Remaneh.

spartan - 8-22-2011 at 09:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI

People have also become more wild, brainless consumers, it is happening everywhere but somehow it seems more pronounced in Lebanon. A society heading towards only rich and poor with no in between. People somehow think that the worst may happen tomorrow so let's have the maximum today, a maximum of money, drugs, sex, cars, cellphones, brands, parties... And also some obtuse, Pre-canned, radical political or religious ideas.

Oudists know the value of simple things, the oud reminds them everyday how a few cheap pieces of wood glued together with art and love can hold an inestimable value.

Excellent approach, I can assure you that this happens in Greece too !

Talking about studying oud abroad of our native country I think there are many options if someone has money and time (unfortunately I havent)

Even in Europe there are many great oud players who teach arabic oud. Adel Salameh, Farhan Sabbagh, etc.

Nizar Rohanna lives in Palestine and he's a great oudist and teacher, personnaly I met him in Athens last year.

Benjamin - 8-23-2011 at 03:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI

People somehow think that the worst may happen tomorrow so let's have the maximum today, a maximum of money, drugs, sex, cars, cellphones, brands, parties... And also some obtuse, Pre-canned, radical political or religious ideas.

Oudists know the value of simple things, the oud reminds them everyday how a few cheap pieces of wood glued together with art and love can hold an inestimable value.

Kalaam 7akim ktir... Very wise observation to my mind.

Benjamin - 8-23-2011 at 03:04 AM

Personnaly I would encourage you to go to Lebanon as it's a great experience to visit this country, especially if now you are in Syria which is just very close by.

If you want to settle for a while in a place to study oud, as everybody said here you have plenty of opportunities. Lebanon is one, Turkey another and the only place I can talk better because I know it well would be in Israel or Palestinian territories where you have many great oud players from different styles and influences.

Good luck

michoud - 8-23-2011 at 07:29 AM

Hi there.
First of all thanks to all who are trying to helping me in this matter.
Benjamin, sadly I´m not in Syria now due to the country´s situation, that´s why I´m looking to other country to go to...
Syria has a lot of great players and teachers and its an amazing country.
I was there studying and working teaching spanish, because I have no money to be outside Spain with no work...
so I´m looking a good place to study but also with some opportunities to work, also in Spain this days I have no work and its difficult to find it, so its better for me to go to an arabic country to learn and work.
I dont wan to go to Turkey because I´m more interested in arabic style.
About Palestinian territories I dont know if there I coud find some work due to the country´s situation., and also I don´t know about the living costs there and wich are the best places to go...so if you can tell me something about it it would be great.
Alami, you are very right, I agree with you 100%
By the way if I go to Lebanon, I would like to go to Tripoli wich looks cheaper than Beirut...
thanks to all

Benjamin - 8-23-2011 at 11:08 AM

A good alternative to learn Arabic style oud could be in Israel. At least I can recommend you many teachers. And there is no political turmoil or any danger, and people speak English or other languages. But to live there it will cost you like in Spain I guess, maybe less, depends where you go. To find a job you should maybe check European Union International Volonteering programs maybe there are in Israel or in Arab countries, or look with embassies, Spanish cultural centers...

If you want to go in an Arabic country other than Lebanon, maybe have a look on Tunisia. This is quite cheap for a Westerner and you can find great players there.

In Morocco maybe you can find a job as a Spanish teacher, as many people are looking to learn Spanish.

Actually my advise would be to look on stuff like couch surfing to be hosted for free, even in exchange for Spanish lessons for instance. Then you only pay the food and oud lessons.

Anyway let us know!

michoud - 8-25-2011 at 06:28 PM

Thanks for your advice Benjamin
well it looks better to go to Tunisia (about money matters) but I have no idea about Tunisia at all, is there somebody from there in the forums to tell us some info???
I´m surprised than you didnt mention Egypt...why? is due to the current country´s situation??

spartan - 8-25-2011 at 09:58 PM

I think it will be very helpful to make a "map" of oud teachers and contact infos for each country .

Then it will be easier to decide which country fits to someone

michoud - 8-26-2011 at 11:48 AM

That´s a great idea spartan!
:applause:

Benjamin - 8-27-2011 at 01:38 AM

Good idea indeed Spartan, hope somebody will have the time and the energy to do it...

Michoud yes I forgot Egypt as well. In fact I guess you still can find your way in any Arab country.

Concerning Tunisia I know a good oud player there maybe he can teach you or advise you what to do.

Cheers,

Benjamin

David.B - 8-27-2011 at 03:22 AM

I might say something enormous, but what about schools in western world? ENM (Ecole Nationale de Musique) in Villeurbanne sounds really good, the only national school in France with 100 % oral methods! I give here a few interesting documents but it's a bit long to translate ...

Marc Loopuyt is the teacher and his son, Thomas, is walking in his footsteps at the CNR in Nice.

This is not so stupid when you think about conservatories in orient which use the occidental methods as the best (My teacher comes from the conservatory in Beyrouth and his methods are modeled on western conservatories).

Attachment: ENSEIGNEMENT ET ORALITE A LA VEILLE DU XXIe SIECLE.zip (570kB)
This file has been downloaded 251 times

Attachment: traditionnel_2752.pdf (93kB)
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michoud - 8-28-2011 at 02:12 PM

David, of course we can learn oud from great oud players in Europe for example...but for me there are 2 reasons I would like to do it in an arab country.
1ºAfter my experience living in Syria (I spent there about two years in the last 3 years and half) for me is not only a matter of learning music theory or technic lessons, is a matter of learn from another culture, music, food, way of living, their problems also...I think now I understand better the music, the arabic music, not only because I study it with a teacher, because I lived there.
2º this is also a good reason, usually arabic countries are cheaper than our countries...I´m musician, I study music all my life, my work is music and sometimes films about music...so, usually I have not a lot of money...for me no way to go to France to live...and in this time with the economical crisis, the situation is very bad...

For me now I need to find a place where I can study oud, and also try to find some work teaching spanish, because if I have no work I can not do it, maybe I have money to stay in the country for a month or month and half until I find an apartment and some students to teach spanish, but no more...
When I was in Syria, it was very easy for me, because I have many friends, so I spend long time in my friend´s home until I found a good and cheap apartment...also my teacher is my friend so I didnt pay for my lessons...and finally I found job teaching spanish...but the revolution is the revolution and now I´m back in Spain

So as I said I need a place to go where I can find a good oud teacher and some work teaching spanish...I know a lot of people would like to learn spanish, every year more and more...but I need to find them

Also I have no work in Spain so...yallah!!

David.B - 8-29-2011 at 08:56 AM

Michoud, in fact, this message does not directly concern you, it was a response to spartan about the map ... For the same reasons as you I'd like to go to Lebanon, but for me it's more affordable to stay in France. Anyway, I can not settle in Beirut or in Villeurbanne. At least for quite a few years, so I use the means at hand to improve my skills before traveling. In any case without the community present at this forum, I think I would turn round a lot!

I also wanted to point out that a European country ensured an oral transmission and this is something! How many national school of music in Arab countries, including Turkey, use traditional learning process? And it's a real question, since I don't really know ...

By the way, keep going, and find a nice place to learn and live :cool:

ALAMI - 8-29-2011 at 12:15 PM

David is pointing an important fact, can we still find in the Arab World a teacher that is still attached to the old school oral transmission methods as Marc Loopuyt? I guess yes but very few, very old and probably considered as "outdated" teatchers by the establishment. Marc Loopuyt is a bit of a fundamentalist, but I would like to study with someone like him, I am not sure if there is still a Lebanese teacher as attached to tradition.

I am just an amateur and, unfortunately, too busy to dedicate serious time for oud, so I focus on one maqam for 2-3-4 months (very few hours a week) and I read a bit, I've learned more from French documents than from Arabic ones.
When I meet with professional Lebanese or Arab oudists, I know many of them including very well known ones, I am always amazed by how little they know about maqam theory, when i talk about some unusual maqams, very often, they look at me amused and they say "how the hell you know all this?".

Then they take their oud, they do a taqsim and it is great, somehow they don't know that they know, they just know. Many of these oudists are way better in informal or private performance than in their "official" concerts.

Oral transmission has disappeared in its traditional form but, magically, it is still somewhere under the hood, may be in the culture, the water, the music coming from old neighbors' house.I don't know it is not very rational.
This is probably what Michoud is after.

David.B - 8-29-2011 at 01:30 PM

Thanks for your words ALAMI, it confirms my thoughts ...

Also, I totally agree with you, if a musician fell into "the pot", it might be difficult for him to explain about his music : it's like explaining your own culture, the food you eat, the air you breathe, the way you love, and so on.

"Un grand principe méditerranéen est que la musique précède l'instrument et qu'il faut s'y baigner et l'ntérioriser avant de s'escrimer sur les cordes. Sur le terrain d'origine, c'est l'environnement musical qui se charge de cet établissement : le sein, le lait et les berceuses combinées de la nourrice - voire de plusieurs nourrices -, les jeux musicaux des enfants, les musiques de circonstances, la proximité fréquente de musiciens en action... Nous sommes dans dans l'idéal mythique et quelquefois réel du terrain, ce qu'entre nous nous appelons communément "la marmite", celle où il fait bon être tombé, et apparemment Villeurbanne en serait bien loin..."

"A great Mediterranean principle is that music precede the instrument and one must bathe and then internalize before fenced on the strings. In the field of origin, the musical environment is responsible for this establishment: the breast milk and combined lullabies of the nurse - and even more nurses - music games for children, the music of circumstances, frequent proximity of musicians in action ... We are in Ideally mythical and sometimes real field, between us we commonly call "the pot", where it is good that one fell, and apparently would Villeurbanne far ... "

Marc Loopuyt

PS
Sorry about the English translation : a mix of Google and I.

michoud - 8-29-2011 at 05:24 PM

David, your point is really interesting.
I saw both sides in Syria, for example in the high institute of music in Damascus, they way they teach arabic music is totally western way, which I don´t like, but for example you can find great young player and teacher, AIman Jesry, who likes to teach in the old style.
Also he told me that he has problems with some of his students, because most of them they want to play very faaaaast, and this is the only thing they want to learn, technic technic and technic...He knows a lot, he plays perfect turkish and arabic, and his knowledge about maqam is incredible but the young students they are not very interested in "old" stuff.
Also there in Syria you can find some teachers that they teach in the old style, usually are not young, like Mohammad Qadri Dalal in Aleppo.
Also I agree with Alami, what I said is not very rational, but for me is like this, when you are leaving for example in Syria, you take a walk in the old zouq in Aleppo, you eat fool in a small restaurant while you are listening to Fairuz, or you take a taxi late at night and the old taxi driver is listening to Sabah Fahri or Oum Kalthoum...the atmosphere comes over you...also every kind of music borns in a special place, so even if we are living in modern times and you go to a restaurant in Damascus and they are listening to this f**ing Enrique Iglesias, there is magic you only need to feel it,
I can imagine that for a foreign who wants to learn flamenco, is not the same to learn it with a good teacher in Berlin than with a good teacher in Jerez de la Frontera, where you can feel why this music was born there...
I remember once my teacher ask me: why you decide to come to Syria? and specially why you were living in Homs and now in Aleppo and you didnt decide to go to Damascus (cosmopolitan city, night life)? Homs and Aleppo are not very easy to live for a foreign...
I told him, these places have something, I really dont know what or where, but I can feel it
I know I´m very romantic

but I think all of us we are, if not we were not playing this incredible instrument which is the oud!