Mike's Oud Forums

oud as a reverb chamber

littleseb - 11-5-2011 at 03:21 PM

well, has anybody on here used an oud as a reverb chamber in a home recording set up?
any thoughts, ideas, experiences?

DoggerelPundit - 11-6-2011 at 08:08 PM

Hi <seb,

Nothing for home recording, but a kanun player friend and I stumbled onto an interesting effect. It takes two to make it work.

While one of you plays an oud, another person can sit around 6 - 10 feet away, with a second oud held exactly facing the one being played. The one holding the facing oud also holds it so the main rose is at the holder's ear—3 to 4 inches away. The holder's head is now between the two ouds.

The effect causes the holder to hear both the oud being played, and a pronounced voicing from the second oud. The overall sound is thicker and richer. This is all true only for the listener; the player hears no difference. It might be interesting to try an omni mike in there somewhere.

Note: we did this outdoors in a quiet wooded area, using a Karibyan, and a very very good Najarian.

-Stephen

fernandraynaud - 11-6-2011 at 10:20 PM

A friend said about my clavichord that "it has a EMT plate built in". What he meant is that the bridge intersects the strings so there is a good length of inactive string to the right, while the portion on the left is played on. These "inactive" string lengths vibrate sympathetically and create a reverb effect. If a piece of felt is placed on those string sections, the instrument sounds completely different. That effect likely contributes something to the timbre of the floating bridge oud. BTW, the soundhole on the clavichord is hidden, it faces UNDER the keys. And a closer cousin is the Lautenwerk, a sort of harpsichord that uses lute/oud strings.

Img_0067m.jpg - 81kB Img_4681m.jpg - 122kB sbin.jpeg - 32kB lutehpschdhulgeL.jpg - 77kB

On the oud the unplayed strings are themselves excited by the played notes and contribute to the richness of the sound. The tuning in ascending fourths seems to accentuate the effect. It's also very noticeable on the viola da gamba, which is also light and resonant, and has 6 strings tuned similarly, so that letting a note "ring out" and excite all the strings and the "case" is part of "its sound". A "tuned reverb" effect could be tried by mounting a speaker on a soundhole to excite the oud with the source, and mic'ing at another soundhole. I don't know how strong it would be.



littleseb - 11-7-2011 at 03:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
A friend said about my clavichord that "it has a EMT plate built in". What he meant is that the bridge intersects the strings so there is a good length of inactive string to the right, while the portion on the left is played on. These "inactive" string lengths vibrate sympathetically and create a reverb effect. If a piece of felt is placed on those string sections, the instrument sounds completely different. That effect likely contributes something to the timbre of the floating bridge oud. BTW, the soundhole on the clavichord is hidden, it faces UNDER the keys. And a closer cousin is the Lautenwerk, a sort of harpsichord that uses lute/oud strings.



On the oud the unplayed strings are themselves excited by the played notes and contribute to the richness of the sound. The tuning in ascending fourths seems to accentuate the effect. It's also very noticeable on the viola da gamba, which is also light and resonant, and has 6 strings tuned similarly, so that letting a note "ring out" and excite all the strings and the "case" is part of "its sound". A "tuned reverb" effect could be tried by mounting a speaker on a soundhole to excite the oud with the source, and mic'ing at another soundhole. I don't know how strong it would be.




that's more or less what i was getting at. my oud has a decay of a good 2 or 3 seconds when i plug a string and then mute it without dampening the other strings. i thought this could make a good diy reverb unit by, like you said, placing a small speaker (even a headphone) into one of the small sound holes, and placing a a large diaphram mic 5 or 10 inches above the main sound hole. the strings could be tuned to whatever harmonics are required. i should just try instead of asking here, but it's always good to ask if somebaidy has experience...

littleseb - 11-7-2011 at 03:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DoggerelPundit  
Hi <seb,

Nothing for home recording, but a kanun player friend and I stumbled onto an interesting effect. It takes two to make it work.

While one of you plays an oud, another person can sit around 6 - 10 feet away, with a second oud held exactly facing the one being played. The one holding the facing oud also holds it so the main rose is at the holder's ear—3 to 4 inches away. The holder's head is now between the two ouds.

The effect causes the holder to hear both the oud being played, and a pronounced voicing from the second oud. The overall sound is thicker and richer. This is all true only for the listener; the player hears no difference. It might be interesting to try an omni mike in there somewhere.

Note: we did this outdoors in a quiet wooded area, using a Karibyan, and a very very good Najarian.

-Stephen


so, basically, you played one oud and used the other as an extra sound body / reflector? yes, this sounds interesting, cheers.

littleseb - 11-7-2011 at 03:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DoggerelPundit  
Hi <seb,

Nothing for home recording, but a kanun player friend and I stumbled onto an interesting effect. It takes two to make it work.

While one of you plays an oud, another person can sit around 6 - 10 feet away, with a second oud held exactly facing the one being played. The one holding the facing oud also holds it so the main rose is at the holder's ear—3 to 4 inches away. The holder's head is now between the two ouds.

The effect causes the holder to hear both the oud being played, and a pronounced voicing from the second oud. The overall sound is thicker and richer. This is all true only for the listener; the player hears no difference. It might be interesting to try an omni mike in there somewhere.

Note: we did this outdoors in a quiet wooded area, using a Karibyan, and a very very good Najarian.

-Stephen


sorry, me again....
so in theory i could (in a studio setting) re-amp a sound, place an oud 6ft away from the speaker, and put a mic 3 inches aay from the sound hole. would this be a similar set-up?

Greg - 11-7-2011 at 05:13 AM

The question asked was whether an oud could be used in a home recording environment as a "reverb chamber."

I think the short answer is no. To be useful in any recording environment, a reverb chamber or any other reverb device is expected to be able to provide a relatively flat and controllable response over a broad range of frequencies.

Certainly, if you are looking for some sort of reverberation effect that will act only upon the frequencies of the open tuned strings (and their harmonics) of the oud in question and you also wish to incorporate the coloration provided by the bowl of this particular instrument, then you will achieve some sort of reverb effect.

However, I thnk you will find that the less 'organic' solutions made by Eventide et al, will give you far more satisfactory results.

Greg

littleseb - 11-7-2011 at 05:23 AM

point taken greg.

thing is - i'm always on the look-out for unique-sounding reverbs as an alternative to my plate and spring. and, being an oudist, it made sense to explore the potentials of a bowl.
i will give it a go at some point and report back.

fernandraynaud - 11-7-2011 at 07:04 AM

I think also you might explore what you can do by simulating string harmonics with tuned filters, I.e. Short delays with feedback, in software, e.g. VST plugins. I rather think what you'll get with actual wood is going to be minimal and impractical compared to that.

DoggerelPundit - 11-7-2011 at 08:02 AM

littleseb,

"so in theory i could (in a studio setting) re-amp a sound, place an oud 6ft away from the speaker, and put a mic 3 inches aay from the sound hole. would this be a similar set-up?"

Just so. But maybe in your setting a directional on the second oud, with its own track, might be more a satisfactory experiment. A little like Paul Horn's flute in the Taj Mahal, but with a (somewhat!) more delicate setup.

Some good input here. Please keep us posted.

-Stephen

littleseb - 11-7-2011 at 08:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
I think also you might explore what you can do by simulating string harmonics with tuned filters, I.e. Short delays with feedback, in software, e.g. VST plugins. I rather think what you'll get with actual wood is going to be minimal and impractical compared to that.


no computers in my studio, hence no softwear or plugins. that's why i'm after natural, organic ways to produce reverbs.

you probably have a point saying that wood might be a bit dry sounding.

cheers!

littleseb - 11-7-2011 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DoggerelPundit  
littleseb,

"so in theory i could (in a studio setting) re-amp a sound, place an oud 6ft away from the speaker, and put a mic 3 inches aay from the sound hole. would this be a similar set-up?"

Just so. But maybe in your setting a directional on the second oud, with its own track, might be more a satisfactory experiment. A little like Paul Horn's flute in the Taj Mahal, but with a (somewhat!) more delicate setup.

Some good input here. Please keep us posted.

-Stephen


cool stephen, thanx for that. will try.