I learned the first of these makam-s — Saba on hüseyni as a modulation after Rast in its place — as "Dalanshin," and the second as properly
Dilnişin, that is, as a sort of bottom-heavy version of Selmek. I wonder if they were once distinct and got merged due to a confounding of the
names? As far as I'm aware, that Saba on hüseyni after either Rast or Hüseyni is alien to the Turkish aesthetic of the last couple centuries —
I'll be able look it up in Kutluğ 2000 in a couple of days, but I wonder if you have any pre-D'Erlanger source for this in the Arab world... is
it in Mashaqa? Just curious... thanks for the posts — interesting pieces!Jono Oud N.Z - 2-5-2012 at 04:55 PM
Hi.
I just checked Mashaqa.
There is no mention there.
Here are two (Arabic) Rast Bashraf that modulate to Dilnishin (Dalansheen).
The first is my re-written version of the Sami Al Shawwa piece.
Dilnishin appears in the third khana.
The second is a Syrian piece by Mohammed Fakhri.
Dilnishin is in the fourth khana.
I have heard the modulation mostly in music from Aleppo.
There are also two songs: Abd El Hamouli's dawr "Eshna we shofna senin"and Mohammed Osman's "Bustan Gamalak" that are in or use this maqam.
Does anyone have the sheet music or recordings of these?
I have been trying to find more information about maqam Dilnishin.
I am curious about the origin of this maqam.
Does anyone know of any other pieces with this modulation?
I could not find any in the Cantemir collection.
The modulations (from Rast, Cantemir) are limited mostly to Nakriz, Mahur and Panjgah.
I have also encountered Saba (on Dugah) following Rast (Rast).
Rob Simms, in his book 'The repertoire of Iraqi Maqam',
mentions that there are two varieties of Rast; 'Rast Hindi' and 'Rast Turki'.
'Rast Hindi' commonly modulates to Bayati, Saba and Hijaz on Nawa and Segah.
'Rast Turki' commonly modulates to Saba (dugah) and Hijaz (dugah).
This modulation to Saba (dugah) is in the third khana of the 'Bashraf Rast Qadim' piece (Cantemir) .
.
I found this document that mentions that before the 1932 (Cairo Congress), this maqam was referred to as Mahur/Kerdan in Egypt.
I just realised this was your work Plum_Pasha.
Hope you don't mind me linking it here?
I think the maqam is mostly used as a modulation from Rast to Saba on Huseyni pitch, same as they do a Bayati modulation on Newa pitch and its called
Nairouz (but the most common is the modulation to Hijaz on Newa, Suzinak).
The popular song Ya Mal Shaam has a small passage to Saba
I dont think that there is a turkish piece for that.
I'm also 99% sure that there is no greek piece doin Dilnisin.
Most of the times we have the usual modulation to Saba on Dugah pitch.
===========================================
As far as I know, in the Byzantine era, Sabah wasnt accepted as a maqam, but only as a modulation. The greek word was "chroa" and means a chromatic
"passage" or "modulation".
Due to the extremely popularity of Saba , and being highly used it was soon accepted as a unique maqam.Plum_Pasha - 2-6-2012 at 01:56 PM
A good discussion, all!
Jono, I had forgotten about that Syrian Jewish "maqom" piece, and it surprised me to see it here (I had written it specifically for a couple guys on a
Facebook microtonal group), especially with that perhaps slightly misleading file name! But I should say firstly that the quote with info on Dilnishin
(in relation to "Mahour") came from an unidentified and seemingly non-scholarly (though evidently informed) source at http://www.pizmonim.com/ — they have since changed their website a bit and I no longer see that part of the quote (I would have expected it
here: http://www.pizmonim.com/maqam.php?maqam=Mahour).
In any case, I wouldn't take that source as definitive regarding Dilnishin being unknown by Arabs pre-1932 — since d'Erlanger died that year, I
think that that aspect at least is already disproved by his having described the makam, as you have shown.
I'm looking now at the entry for Dilnişin in Yakup Fikret Kutluğ's "Türk Musikisinde Makamlar" (2000) — before I translate from that, let
me just recommend the text generally: I believe only 1000 copies were printed, and only in Turkish, but it's the only text I know of that describes
(Turkish) makam-s in multiple iterations/definitions, and over long historical periods, so he'll often be able to say "the Systematists thought it was
like X in the year 1300, then in the 1700s it became Y, and by 1920 it was Z..." — very interesting text! Unfortunately the author died the year his
book came out.
So... Dilnişin according to Kutluğ:
"Abdülbaki Nâsır Dede [1765-1871] explained dilnişin makam thus: 'Playing a Hüseyni melody, make the final cadence on rast; this
combination is forgotten in our day.' ... In the time of Sultan Selim III [1761-1808] it was understood that there had been a no-longer-played makam
called Dilhişin, but there's no other record of a Dilnişin in the literature ... "
After further exploration of what we *don't* know, he describes the makam pretty much in the same way: after playing Hüseyni, move to Rast (though
not for very long before cadencing there); it can go as low as aşiran. He contrasts it to Selmek by saying that Dilnişin plays Hüseyni
first and most broadly while Selmek plays Rast first and most broadly, with a bit of Hüseyni inside.
There is no makam in his section on "makam-s ending on the tone rast" that has either Saba on hüseyni or Beyati (etc.) on neva.
I guess that doesn't solve anything re: "Dalanshin," but at least it confirms that there was never a Rast + Saba version of Dilnişin in the
Turkish sphere.
In any case, it would be interesting to join learning the Turkish Dilnişin with learning both Selmek and Gerdaniye (starts as descending Rast,
ends in Hüseyni, may have a taste of Hisar/Hicaz on hüseyni in between) — ah; that's what the unknown Syrian Jewish source was saying! Gerdaniye =
Kirdan, which he says is confounded sometimes with Mahour/Mahur — interesting!
It still leaves a mystery as to where and when the Saba business came into the picture. I'll ask around — I'll see Scott Marcus and Ya`ir Dalal
tomorrow evening.
Meanwhile thanks for the rare makam-s and interesting discussion!
EricJono Oud N.Z - 2-6-2012 at 04:01 PM
Hi Spartan.
Quote:
The popular song Ya Mal Shaam has a small passage to Saba
Quote:
And ofcourse the famous and beautiful raqsat of Omar Naqshbandi called Saba-huseyni
Thanks!
I had that song (Ya Mal Shaam) in my head and could remember the modulation (Sabah Fakhri) but could not remember what song it was.
The information on Byzantine music is also very interesting.
Hi Plum_ Pasha.
Very informative.
Thanks!
This Turkish source sounds amazing!
I really like the Gerdaniye/Kirdan maqam.
It is in a lot of 'Greek-Turkish' music too.
Do you happen to have the sheet music or recordings of 'Eshna we shofna senin' and 'Bustan Gamalak'.
I have an idea that the Saba on Huseyni modulation (from Rast) may come from the Sufi music from Aleppo.
Most of the pieces with this modulation come from Aleppo.
This needs to be proven though.
The Sufi Mawali order in Aleppo have some pretty interesting and unique modulations.
I heard some of these on the Al Kindi album 'Aleppian Sufi Trance'.
Are you also familiar with the Saba on Dugah modulation?
This seems to be an old modulation as I have not heard or seen it in more recent maqam music.
I have been in contact with Yair Dalal too.
He was my first influence on the oud.
I also posted him my tune book.
Scott Marcus is amazing too!!
Please say hi to Yair from Jonathan 'oud NZ'.
Amazing!!
Plum_Pasha - 2-8-2012 at 06:02 PM
Sorry if this seems unrelated, but someone with the username "beans" sent me a U2U message regarding my comments on Kutluğ 2000 and when I
(thought I) sent the reply I got a screen saying that there was "no such user" — so, just in case there is such a person but I can't for some reason
send him a U2U message, let me say here that that text is not digitized as far as I know; it consists of 8 volumes (1 of theory and history and 7 of
transcribed examples) + several CDs of recorded performances. Because it is rare and relatively expensive in Turkey, I would guess that most copies
are in university libraries — it took me several months to find a complete set in Istanbul in 2009, and when I asked a representative of the
publisher if they had plans to reprint it she was sure they did not intend to. Anyway... I cannot at the moment copy it or scan it all, but if someone
wishing to research a makam wants to contact me about it, I could probably make a xerox copy of a couple pages at a time, or just relate the basics in
a quick translation — send a U2U here with an outside e-mail address I can respond to — anyway, sorry if I missed you "beans"!Jono Oud N.Z - 2-8-2012 at 09:40 PM
Hi.
I am very interested in the Kutluğ 2000 work too. Plum_Pasha - 2-8-2012 at 10:20 PM
It's a beauty, but a little unwieldy, and not just for its size — apart from being in Turkish (which I understand, but of course it's a rare
language outside of Turkey), he often quoted earlier theorists in their native Ottoman without giving a translation — practically no-one understands
Ottoman without a dictionary nowadays, and I only have access to one online — takes forever to get through those passages (I'm not sure whom he was
trying to impress!). I counted the makam-s in it once, I think they come to about 200. Someday I should get it scanned but I'm not in a position to do
it now. As I said to "beans," if you have specific questions I could look things up in it for you occasionally...
Jono Oud N.Z - 2-8-2012 at 11:09 PM
Very interesting.
Did you happen to find out anything more about Dilnishin?
Plum_Pasha - 2-8-2012 at 11:39 PM
Oh, I forgot to ask! Ya`ir is a guest artist with the UCSB Middle East Ensemble all this quarter so I see him (and Scott) at least once a week at
rehearsals, 'til the concert on March 10, but last night Persian composer Dr. Bahram Osqueezadeh led much of the evening and by the end I forgot to
ask about Dalanshin/Dilnişin. Hopefully I'll remember next week!Jono Oud N.Z - 2-9-2012 at 11:34 AM
