Mike's Oud Forums

Ancient Coptic Melody (Huzam/Rahat al Arwah)

myeyes2020 - 2-22-2012 at 05:27 PM

Just wanted to share an ancient Coptic melody that's used in many Coptic hyms and praises. In this case the hymn is called
"Ifrahi ya Mariam" = Regoice oh Mary.
It is Christian from the Coptic church where the musicality of the pharoas has been preserved. So this is a demonstration of how Huzam/Rahat al Arwah is used in our music.
The beginning is a taqsim that is not part of the hymn but a creation of the qanun player. The Coptic music does have "taqsim" that is also quite uniqe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF1vNEHtHIM&feature=related

fadel - 2-22-2012 at 06:57 PM

الله

افرحي يامريم سلام الله عليكي يامريم

thank

Ararat66 - 2-23-2012 at 01:01 PM

That is just amazing, love the progression through the taksim and the way it turns and pivots throughout.

Leon

Jono Oud N.Z - 2-27-2012 at 04:20 PM

Beautiful!:applause:

fernandraynaud - 2-27-2012 at 11:49 PM

Is the oud used in Coptic tradition at all?

myeyes2020 - 2-28-2012 at 06:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Is the oud used in Coptic tradition at all?
Very interesting question. I can't find any literature on the matter especially of the traditions during the pre-Islamic and pagan times to indicate that the oud was handed down by tradition. From the perpective that Coptic means Egyptian, then of course the Ancient Egyptians (Copts) did use a form of the oud as well as other instruments. What's left of the Coptic "tradition," heritage, language,music and art has been preserved only in the church. According to the canon of the Cotpic Church (rules by which services and formal ceremonies are to be performed), the only instrument to be used in accordance with the tradition of our ancestors is the fine sounding cymbals that we call the "daff" not to confused with the arabic tamborine. The closest Arabic term to describe these cymbals is "naqus." From the perspective that current Coptic tradition is now "Christian," we use any instrument in our social setting for the sole purpose of praising as stated in Psalm 150:04 to "praise the Lord with organ and stringed instruments. " Interestingly, the Coptic translation of "stringed instruments" is "okythara" taken from the greek "kythara." You may know that "guitar" is most likely drived from kythara or Spanish "guitarra.". So accordingly, based on our mileu and the bible, we often use the modern oud for Coptic Christian music other than service but there is no evidence that I can find that this was handed down by tradition. I'm actually more fascinated with the fact that our 2000 year old hymns have the ajnas found in Arabic music. Our music is not studied the academic way. It's learned by the technique of listen to one, sing one, teach one and is handed down from generation to generation. Yet, with a great deal of accuracy, our choirs around the world sing the songs with perfect use of the maqam without ever being able to describe it academically. The voice itself is a fascinating instrument and the next instrument closest to the voice is the oud. Before I even knew what a maqam was or how to tune the oud (4 years ago), I was playing our music on oud (off key albeit), but maintaining the perfect integrity of the sclales. I have these recorded. Thankfully, with the advent of the internet and this forum and study wiht knowlegable friends, I can see our music in light of the academic understanding.

Jono Oud N.Z - 2-28-2012 at 09:48 PM

Very interesting!:)
My oud teacher was Coptic.
I went to a small Church with him once and he played the oud and ney to accompany the songs.
Different from the usual traditional service.
I noticed some maqamat resemblances; Segah, Bayati and Kurdi in particular.


fernandraynaud - 2-29-2012 at 01:05 AM

From what I understand about the Coptic tradition, it's extremely EXTREMELY conservative, as if by definition. So the sung hymns are perhaps an unexplored gold mine for people interested in the nature of music from Alexandrian times, maybe earlier. Too bad there's no instrumental tradition to go with it.

I'm curious what you mean when you say you played the hymn music on oud maintaining the perfect integrity of the scales but off-key. How can scales be "perfect" yet "off-key"? If I play Saba with bad intonation, it doesn't take much for it to no longer be a representation of Saba.

myeyes2020 - 2-29-2012 at 05:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
From what I understand about the Coptic tradition, it's extremely EXTREMELY conservative, as if by definition. So the sung hymns are perhaps an unexplored gold mine for people interested in the nature of music from Alexandrian times, maybe earlier. Too bad there's no instrumental tradition to go with it.

I'm curious what you mean when you say you played the hymn music on oud maintaining the perfect integrity of the scales but off-key. How can scales be "perfect" yet "off-key"? If I play Saba with bad intonation, it doesn't take much for it to no longer be a representation of Saba.


To understand the conservative nature of Copts, it would help to know how we live in as a minority in Egypt. As the indigenous people of the land who struggle to keep our identity and herititage in an Arab state that is "Arabizing" us, the only place that we have to turn is our church. If there ever is a major issue that faces the coptic people, we have a history of turning to the church and the clergy are our spokemen. Perhaps this is changing with time but the nature of being very close to our church was exported with the imigrants who continue to keep close to the church through out the world. So for the most part, our rulees are the same that apply to all Christians, we just take it seriously.

Yes, the sung hyms are an unexplored goldmine and I would argue that the voice of the choir (s) is the amazing instrument that has preserved the music and it's very rhythmic and quite easy to follow. Here's a sample of how we keep the ruthm with the daf (aka naqus).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBWzZwRVpZo&list=FLO8mwKrbO_aTEC...

Perhaps I used the wrong term "off key." But I don't know what you call it when you are out of tune yet aligned in pitch with everyone else. Your oud can be out of tune say by a quarter of a step. Consider that you G string is tuned to A1/2-flat. Using the same finger positions that you would play saba on G would still yield a Saba on A1/2flat because you still maintained the exact intervals between the notes. If all the instruments detuned their strings the same way they would still be aligned when playing saba on A1/2 flat. Correct? What is this condition called in musical terms?

Infact, Um kalthoum's orchestra often "detuned" their instruments to accommodate her voice so that they dont have to do too much finger gymnastics on their instruments. A good example of this is the song fakarouni= ([they] reminded me) which she sung an nahawand/rast A 1/2flat.

Most of our clergy were not gifted with the singing talent. Our hyms are often responses to the clergy and must be somewhat in the vicinity of the key they are singing in. Since we are not musically trained with awareness of absolute pitch, it was never an issue as to what note we are starting at. However, the "scale" chord or maqam is accurate.

To clarify, in the example of the Hymn above (Ifrahi ya Mariam). It is in Huzam. It doesn't necessary have to begin an E1/2flat or B1/2flat. It can begin on Do, Re or Mi or any odd note as it's tonic. It is still Huzam.

So what's the correct term to describe the use of a maqam using an out of ordinary tonic? This is what I meant by off key.