Mike's Oud Forums

Old oud building techniques and soundboard choice

Bodhi - 5-15-2012 at 02:57 AM

Hi all,
I was looking recently at old Persian artwork involving the oud and noticed that it is quite common that the soundboard appears to have two darker/harder types of wood on either side of a lighter/softer type as shown in the picture I have uploaded.

I wondered if this has been abandoned in practise for a particular reason (perhaps a change in the tones that were considered pleasing or simply that it is easier)?

Also, what benefits that type of soundboard might have (structurally or in relation to the amplification of sound)?

Maybe some of the resident luthiers know, or any perhaps it has been researched before?

Thanks
Bodhi

barbat.jpg - 175kB

Jody Stecher - 5-15-2012 at 06:01 AM

The conventions of Persian painting dictated that the painter be faithful to the rules and practices of earlier painting, but not that it depict mundane reality. Colors may be symbolic as well. Back to the first point, if a painter depicted a barabat with dark/light/dark
soundboard it may be because that is how barabats were depicted, not because the painter actually saw a barabat in the real world that was built like that.

Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi  
Hi all,
I was looking recently at old Persian artwork involving the oud and noticed that it is quite common that the soundboard appears to have two darker/harder types of wood on either side of a lighter/softer type as shown in the picture I have uploaded.

I wondered if this has been abandoned in practise for a particular reason (perhaps a change in the tones that were considered pleasing or simply that it is easier)?

Also, what benefits that type of soundboard might have (structurally or in relation to the amplification of sound)?

Maybe some of the resident luthiers know, or any perhaps it has been researched before?

Thanks
Bodhi

Ararat66 - 5-15-2012 at 06:02 AM

Could be animal hide and wood - some Barbats are made like this I think.

Leon

abc123xyz - 5-15-2012 at 01:28 PM

Many sāzes are still made that way, with a three piece soundboard, the outer panels in a contrasting shade.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Tamburasaz-Bagla...

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqJ,!l!E5YQw5HnPBOW,ruoNmQ~~60_3.JPG

Sāzes and ouds both are often depicted in Persian miniature paintings with that type of soundboard.

David

Bodhi - 5-15-2012 at 01:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
The conventions of Persian painting dictated that the painter be faithful to the rules and practices of earlier painting, but not that it depict mundane reality. Colors may be symbolic as well. Back to the first point, if a painter depicted a barabat with dark/light/dark soundboard it may be because that is how barabats were depicted, not because the painter actually saw a barabat in the real world that was built like that.


In the book 'the art of persian music' by Jean During he quite clearly states that it was common practise with Barbats at the time to use contrasting woods but offers no reason for the abandonment of the practise nor reasons why it was employed. So, perhaps you have a valid point in some cases but I think not all.

Could be animal hide and wood

Yes it could be but on some pictures a rosette is visible so again maybe in some cases but not all.

I have seen Sazes with this design and also the Bosnian Sargija in many cases follows that pattern.

So, back to the questions assuming they are using three piece wooden soundboard... What kind of tonal advantages could be gained from this? and why would this practise fall out of fashion?

jdowning - 5-16-2012 at 05:40 AM

Presumably Jean During was speculating that contrasting woods were once used on Barbat sound boards based upon his perception on the way they are represented in the iconography? I think that this interpretation - as far as the posted miniature painting is concerned - is a possibility but it could also be that the sound board has been stained a darker colour to match the wood of the fingerboard (?) with inlaid lines of contrasting wood used to separate the the stained and unstained areas (to prevent the darker stain 'wicking' into the unstained central panel). If this is the case then the intent would have been purely decorative.
This is a decorative feature found today on some Saz but is not so pronounced as on the barbat depicted in the miniature covering a much smaller area.

Note also that the sound board, pegbox and fingerboard are decorated with what appears to be banding inlay. This feature again suggests an all wood sound board rather than one of wood and skin - or does it?
The two ladies behind the barbat player are each playing a skin covered tambourine or daf yet each frame drum is likewise decorated with what appears to be banding inlay. As far as I am aware these instruments never had wooden drum heads but were fitted with animal skin stretched over the frame and held in place on the side of the frame with glue and/or nails. This suggests that the decoration may have been painted on to the surface of the skin. If this is the case then the darker area of the barbat sound board seen in the miniature may have been intended to represent skin.

The bridge of the barbat is obscured but most likely would have been a fixed type glued to the soundboard. So a sound board construction with a stiff wooden centre panel to support the string loadings and two very flexible outer panels made of skin would be structurally possible and would likely sound very different from an all wood sound board - perhaps favouring lower frequency vibrations, responding better to string vibration (an advantage when using only three pairs of gut or silk strings) and louder?
However, skin as a vibrating membrane is much more sensitive to humidity changes than wood so such a sound board construction might have been difficult to maintain.

It is said that some modern guitar makers fabricate 3 piece wooden sound boards where the central panel is made stiffer than the outer panels by use of different woods - stiff Spruce for the central panel and softer Cedar for the outer panels. This might be an all wood equivalent to a wood/skin arrangement in favouring bass response etc.?

However, as the oud is said to have been developed directly from the barbat there does not appear to be any mention in the early theoretical writings about the oud (dating as far back as the 9th C) about sound boards being made from anything but wood. Perhaps by then wood/skin sound boards, difficulties with maintenance and their distinctive tonal characteristics had long since fallen into obsolescence and out of fashion? Musical sound is a matter of preference that has been subject to fashion and hence change over the centuries.

All speculation and guesswork unfortunately.

jdowning - 5-16-2012 at 05:49 AM

Here is a link to a forum discussion about mixed wood sound boards for classical guitars.

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6626...

Bodhi - 5-16-2012 at 08:55 AM

thank you jdowning for the link. I think the idea of the two dark panels being made of skin is plausible. I have been told, or read, that the persians used skin untill much after the barbat changed in the arab lands to a wooden board only.

jdowning - 5-16-2012 at 12:23 PM

Some further thoughts.
I am familiar with this Persian miniature but cannot at present find the source or date - 16th C perhaps? The cross eyed ney player on the right hand side is part of the charm of this painting!

If the date is around the 16th C should the instrument in question be more properly called an oud rather than barbat - given the clearly defined neck joint (suggesting a built up bowl from thin ribs and separate neck - not a one piece carved construction)? Note also the seven frets on the fingerboard suggesting the classic oud proportion of nut to neck joint length of 1/3 string length.
Typically the number of strings cannot be determined by counting the pegs - it could mean three double courses or six single (or anything in between!). However, only three strings seem to be represented.

It would be interesting to build a fretted oud with contrasting three piece spruce/cedar sound board - based upon the instrument in this miniature - just to determine the acoustic result (which, of course, would be unlikely to prove anything either way).

Another 'Old Oud - New Project' for the forum perhaps - a tempting idea!



Bodhi - 8-12-2012 at 12:19 PM

Just thought I would revive this thread as I found an Arafati Oud/Barbat with the same three piece soundboard as pictured (if that is what it is) heres the picture:



arafati_mohammadtaghi17.jpg - 49kB

...and what a beauty. The sound we can only speculate but I imagine there would be a difference to regular 2 piece soundboards.

Jody Stecher - 8-12-2012 at 02:01 PM

Consensus in previous forum threads seems to be that multi-piece soundboards and two-piece soundboards sound no more different from each other than various two - piece soundboards of the same wood type sound from each other or different multi-piece sound boards of the same number of pieces sound from each other.

This appears to be photo of an oud with either a four piece or two piece soundboard. It could even be six pieces but I can't see clearly enough. What can be seen ("south" of the bridge) is the division of the light wood into two pieces. I can't tell if the dark part on each side of the light wood of the center represents a different piece of wood or not. The dark wood of the soundboard appears to be stained wood of the same type as the light wood but the light in the photo doesn't make it clear if each dark part is a different piece or not. I don't see any pots of stain on the work bench but I do see a bottle of Titebond II. Uh Oh. Not water-soluble. Can be a bit of a problem for repairs.

stos - 8-16-2012 at 05:29 AM

hello!

maybe i have an hypothese about this bi colored soundboard coming from the book which study the tambouras of makroyianni

the soundboard could be like on this tambouras : slightly curved with no braces, the two pieces of harder wood are there to "stop" the sound board wich support the strings

it is the same technique i think that is used on saz

Şehrud

Microber - 11-14-2012 at 01:59 AM

Finally, I found back that video on youtube about the Şehrud, a big bass turkish oud.
It has that feature of bicolored soundboard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLjJGAa3ECg

And in the video, we can see a young woman luthier, which is not very common.

Robert

Aymara - 11-14-2012 at 11:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Microber  

And in the video, we can see a young woman luthier, which is not very common.


Nice find, Robert ... I found her craftsmanship more interesting than the instrument ;)