Mike's Oud Forums

Rast makam and Rauf Yekta's Seyir

keving - 5-17-2012 at 07:32 AM

hey oudis

I introduced this idea in http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12956

Obviously, most of this info is repeated in text books and around the web, especially for the more common makams. My intention for presenting it like this is to a) definitively put together an accepted seyir (Yekta) along with English commentary about the makam, b) have some practical input from relevant performance practice, c) collect data as complete as is possible for all 30 makams included in Yekta seyir listing, d) make it available to those of us who would find it an useful English reference.

I am hoping everyone here will add and or correct what you see is missing, PLEASE DO, your input will make this much more realistic and useful. Let make this as true to the tradition as we are capable of. I am in most need of help with suggestion on "suspended cadences" and the available modulations within the makam. While reference to the repertoire is certainly the way to elucidate this, I feel a discussion among players is just as valuable, which is where your input is important! Please make note if you are drawing from another tradition other than Turkish makam, as it is important that we keep aware of the distinctions between each music practice.

I will be following this post up soon with other makams as I get them ready.

thank you! - kevin germain


Rast Makam

Rauf Yekta's Seyir


Note, Yekta's notation here leaves out the accidental "koma", which in current practice would be notated as the 'backwards' flat for segah (B).

Durak (Final or Tonic) : Rast (G)
Güçlü (Dominant): Neva (D)
Yeden (Leading tone) : Irak (F#)

Seyir: Ascending

Rast Makam is composed of a rast pentachord and rast tetrachord. Occasionally a buselik tetrachord is used on descending from tiz durak (G), (octave tonic), giving a acem (F) in place for eviç (F#). Extending past tiz durak (G) a rast pentatonic is used from gerdanyine. Going below rast, a rast tetrachord is used from yegah. This is demonstrated in the scale below:





Asma Karar (Suspended cadences):

neva and segah pitches

Ussak tetrachord from dugah
Segah pentachord from segah, sometime dik hisar is substituted for huseyni.
Ferahnak pentachord from segah

Some typical and accepted possible makam modulations within Rast:
Segah makam from segah
Huzzam makam from segah
Hicaz makam from dugah
Hicaz makam from gerdaniye
Karcigar makam from dugah
Eviç makam from eviç
Mustear from segah
Nikriz from rast
Ussak from neva

Saba from huseyin (Arabic trad.)

Single note borrowing:
kurdi, hicaz, sübüle

Commentary: As with all of his demonstrations of the seyir, Rauf Yekta's Seyir of makam Rast is set in the untypical rhythm of a waltz, a much unused beat in Turkish classical music. Another drawback is his choice of accidental notation which is no longer accepted, as opposed to the current system in use developed by Ezgi and Arel. This presents some confusion as to the exact performance of certain pitches, in this case of Segah, which in current usage would be notated with an accidental. A more serious critique of this seyir notes that is lacks the Ussak asma kara nor one from Segah. Another case is made by some against the meyan or middle section being set in a too high register.


Some accepted pieces illustrating Rast within the repertoire:
Rast Pesrevi and Saz Semaisi by Kemani Tatyos Efendi
Rast Zeybek by Tanburi Cemil Bey
Yüzündür cihani münevver sharki by Dede Efendi
Yine bir gül nihal sharki by Dede Efendi

Sources:

(Seyir) Rauf Yekta 1922. "La Musique turque", Encylopédie de la musique (Albert Lavignac),
Ismail Hakki Özkan, Türk Musikisi Nazariyati ve Usulleri (1984)
Mutlu Torun, "Ud Metodu" (2000)
Karl Signell, "Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music" (2008)

Online Resources:
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/ (David Parfitt)
http://www.octave.at/
http://www.neyzenim.com
http://www.oudcafe.com/ (Mavrothis T Kontonis)

Note: With the exception of the Rauf Yekta's seyirs, as presented in the "Encylopédie de la musique", NO file or image was knowingly out and out lifted, copied, used and or altered. Information herein is presented is assumed as common knowledge, belonging to the whole music community and within public domain. If any of the good folks referred to in the above resources feel something has been unjustly taken from their material please notify me and it will be immediately removed.

The concept of a "single note borrowing" is sourced from Signell, "Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music" (2008)"

spartan - 5-17-2012 at 10:46 PM

Nice job
Thanks for sharing

the Rast Pesrev composed by Tatyos has the ideal typical Rast seyir with beautiful modulations .

http://www.oudcafe.com/rast_lesson.htm

Another possible modulation is Mustear from Segah note
Like the 4th Hanna in the Rast Samai (Tatyos). At the same link above.

Another modulation that is rare to Ottoman tradition but common to Arabic music is the Saba from Huseyini note (the Dalnisin maqam)
Like the famous song Ya Mal Il Sham

http://www.issaboulos.com/archive/scores/Ya-Mal-il-Sham1.pdf

keving - 5-18-2012 at 04:03 AM

excellent, thank you. Mustear is still a very new to my ears, I had very hard time picking that phrase out as mustear in the 4th hane. and yet it sounds so right. good call.

adamgood - 5-18-2012 at 07:14 AM

Your descriptions are great!

Unfortunately the notated example is bad, bad and badder for showing the Rast seyir. Doesn't give us any idea of what a composition or taksim would be. There's no Ussak asma karar, no Segah, doesn't go to the dominant. And it's showing a high meyan but in my opinion this shouldn't be a part of the seyir.

Sorry to sound ultra negative but I'm sure together we can compose something more interesting than this.

fernandraynaud - 5-18-2012 at 11:23 AM

I have trouble with Turkish notation. My ouds are tuned Arabic and Rast is a C and it's a C on paper. With Turkish examples I'm never sure if a C is a D or a G or what. It makes me nervous and unwilling to look at Turkish notation. Your example says Rast is nothing but G Major, which is perhaps a simplification, and because of the peculiar Turkish notation i cant even try to elucidate it by refrring to the scale that's shown, not being sure if it's in standard notation or Turkish offset. Other than having Turkish musicians join the rest of the world in notating "normally", can you suggest how to approach this anxiety?

Jody Stecher - 5-18-2012 at 09:40 PM

I have a similar problem. I understand that when I see a symbol that would mean G natural for Arabic music, that it means that when playing a Turkish oud to put my finger where I'd get C natural on a Arabic oud but that it comes out D natural. But to hold that in my mind makes my eyes spin, the left eye spinning clockwise and the right eye counter-clockwise. So is there any more useful advice than "get used to it" or "get over it" both of which I've seen in books on Turkish music written in English?

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
I have trouble with Turkish notation. My ouds are tuned Arabic and Rast is a C and it's a C on paper. With Turkish examples I'm never sure if a C is a D or a G or what. It makes me nervous and unwilling to look at Turkish notation. Your example says Rast is nothing but G Major, which is perhaps a simplification, and because of the peculiar Turkish notation i cant even try to elucidate it by refrring to the scale that's shown, not being sure if it's in standard notation or Turkish offset. Other than having Turkish musicians join the rest of the world in notating "normally", can you suggest how to approach this anxiety?

Jody Stecher - 5-18-2012 at 09:56 PM

I may be out of my depth here. But why is the symbol to indicate the pitch segah considered an accidental ? (which really means "incidental" after all). To my ears the third degree of the makam rast is usually segah (and any deviation is usually down in pitch.) A major third would be eccentric wouldn't it? Also to my ears the turkish rast uses a version of the pitch of segah that is a good deal higher than found in Arabic rast. That apparent fact should probably be added to the bucket of Rast data, no?
Quote: Originally posted by keving  
hey oudis


Note, Yekta's notation here leaves out the accidental "koma", which in current practice would be notated as the 'backwards' flat for segah (B).

keving - 5-19-2012 at 04:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by adamgood  


Unfortunately the notated example is bad, bad and badder for showing the Rast seyir. ... Sorry to sound ultra negative but I'm sure together we can compose something more interesting than this.


adamgood - your point is crucial and needs addressing, thank you for pointing it out. We will come across this critique again with other of them. IMO, we benefit from our vantage point we have today in accessing what some of the music scholars did in the past. My intention of using only Yekta's seyir in this case is that I personally feel the link to the past is useful in continuing our conversation with whole makam tradition in its entirety. Ironically, my other reason for doing so is because these seyirs are so very simplified, which I know leaves out perhaps some of the very important information you point out. (There are gaps in what Yekta presents, which I imagine is why in some of the more current Turkish text many of his seyir are not used, not only for the reasons you note but also because of his method of notating the microtones, which also has fallen in disuse.) That aside, this simplicity in my mind says the barest minimum about the makam's individuality, and leaves out idosyncratic figures which may tie it down to one time frame or style. While most teaching rightly suggest using the repertoire as sources for learning makam, my concern here lies in seeing the makam's shape laid out in the most possible primary fashion, albeit there are issues with doing this in this way.

The reason of connection to a past figure within the tradition which is also why I am loathe to break from in trying to compose one of our own seyirs , as it would be in danger of including more modern interpretation of the makam. Which in itself there is nothing wrong with, at all, actually - rather it would be very nice. But, I guess, my conservatism is showing in my desire to look to the past.

I suggest, as an alternative approach, to include your remarks - and others - as part of a commentary upon this and future seyir? Perhaps that may make this endeavor more useful and current?

p.s. oh yes, perhaps we could include a short list of representational pieces from the repertoire, as well. That would be useful, I think.

keving - 5-19-2012 at 05:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
I have a similar problem.]...So is there any more useful advice than "get used to it" or "get over it" both of which I've seen in books on Turkish music written in English?

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
I have trouble with Turkish notation. ...Other than having Turkish musicians join the rest of the world in notating "normally", can you suggest how to approach this anxiety?


yes, it is an unfortunate situation, especially for those of us outside of the circle of Turkish tradition...

I am afraid there is not much that can be said to allay your frustration other than this: You will be a much better musician for being able to come to grips with it when you are able to do so. Small consolation, I know.... I still struggle with it when playing outside of it, but for what it is worth I am able to transpose music much easier now than most are capable of doing. It will eventually help you play hicaz from any note you wish without much to do, for example.

Jody Stecher - 5-19-2012 at 08:14 AM

I already can play Hicaz (or any other familiar makam) from any note I wish. That is a simple matter of hearing and of pattern recognition. It has nothing to do with reading and interpreting dots on paper. I can already separate melody from fingering. I typically review a notated melody mentally when I read it for the first time before I pick up an instrument to play it. In western music I can read a melody in one key and play it (on the mandolin for instance) in most other keys without much effort. Reading Turkish notation for someone more used to Arabic oud is a matter of translating not once but twice. One has to contend with the notation being a fourth higher than the pitches it represents to someone outside Turkish musical culture and also with the oud being tuned a whole step higher than the Arabic oud. Neither of the two obstacles would be a major problem but taken together it is a vexing problem. Cracking this code and getting used to it makes one a better cracker of codes but I doubt it will make anyone a better musician. I will of course "come to grips with it" but it will be a matter of spending sufficient time with Turkish notation after finding a mental key to double translating without having to think about it. And when I can do it well enough so that it feels "natural" I expect to be the same musician I was before I attempted the project, no better or worse.
Quote: Originally posted by keving  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
I have a similar problem.]...So is there any more useful advice than "get used to it" or "get over it" both of which I've seen in books on Turkish music written in English?

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
I have trouble with Turkish notation. ...Other than having Turkish musicians join the rest of the world in notating "normally", can you suggest how to approach this anxiety?


yes, it is an unfortunate situation, especially for those of us outside of the circle of Turkish tradition...

I am afraid there is not much that can be said to allay your frustration other than this: You will be a much better musician for being able to come to grips with it when you are able to do so. Small consolation, I know.... I still struggle with it when playing outside of it, but for what it is worth I am able to transpose music much easier now than most are capable of doing. It will eventually help you play hicaz from any note you wish without much to do, for example.

keving - 5-19-2012 at 09:09 AM

I am sorry Jody if I offended you. Because of my oud's tuning it is not a big shift for me, it is simply moving the pattern up to another set of strings. That may not the case for you. I apologize.

Jody Stecher - 5-19-2012 at 09:28 AM

Apology accepted. Peace.
How are you tuned?

Quote: Originally posted by keving  
I am sorry Jody if I offended you. Because of my oud's tuning it is not a big shift for me, it is simply moving the pattern up to another set of strings. That may not the case for you. I apologize.

fernandraynaud - 5-19-2012 at 10:54 AM

Jody you're right. It's the double flip that does it. I have a simple but reasonably effective solution: forget it and stick to Arabic. I save my remaining brain cells for other things.