RubabPlayer - 6-6-2012 at 04:25 PM
I have had a wonderful email chat with Mavrothi who has given me some great advice about Oud and Lavta. I wanted to open the question up to the forum
and see what other artists are thinking.
For reference. I am an Afghan Rubab, Persian Tanboor and Setar player. I also play Short Saz a bit. In our band we merge instruments from all over the
Silk Road to create our sound. Sometimes mixing Shamisen with Turkish percussion or Rubab playing Japanese folk melodies.
Lately we realized that we need something new on the string side. A flexible instrument that could allow us to expand into Gypsy influences and 19th
and early 20th century folk influences.
We also wanted something that could be very flexible, expressive and not as limited in scope as the main instruments we play.
Lavta was suggested as an easy jump into this area with portability and good sound. More low end than our key instruments and some elements of Oud
sound. Fretted so I can easily adapt.
But Mavrothi raised an interesting point about flexibility of the Oud vs Lavta and suggested we explore this instrument instead.
So here are my questions.
1. For those who play both, what limitations do you encounter when adapting to various pieces?
2. For inventiveness and flexibility what are your thoughts?
3. For ability to create unique and interesting tones and sounds what do you think?
4. If anyone is mixing widely spread genres, what is your experience like with these instruments or with either one of them?
Thanks for your help. Looking forward to your insights.
Giorgioud - 6-7-2012 at 03:52 AM
Hello Rubab,
nothing to do with your query, as I don't play lavta, but I was quite intrigued by the description of your band's sound. Have you got anything to play
on the net, by any chance? I have a project myself for which I am striving to do something similar (minus the Far East influence), and I was just
greatly interested in these cross-contaminations, as they are alwayse exciting to listen to. Thanks in advance
Giorgio
reminore - 6-7-2012 at 04:39 AM
one thought comes to mind - a lavta allows one to play in four of the major tunings found in ottoman music - mansur, kiz, supurde and bolahenk - in
other words, it has a wide versatile range...to do the same on an ud, one would be dealing with playing either the high or low set of tunings with
closed strings - something that would not sound as good on an ud. i know people who do it, but doesn't sound nice.
the lavta has been nearly a dead instrument for nearly a century, and only now is enjoying a renaissance - ironically in greece more than anywhere
else...which is where i would look to purchase an instrument. if ordering from turkey, be sure that the instrument can accept nylon strings, as a
number of turkish makers arm them with steel saz strings. (also an interesting sound)...
RubabPlayer - 6-7-2012 at 05:46 AM
Hi Reminor,
Thanks for your post. It is a huge help. Is there a resource for the tunings you listed?
I am struggling with the decision. We can only afford one or the other now.
For an experienced musician, how challenging do you think the Lavta is to take up vs the Oud?
RubabPlayer - 6-7-2012 at 05:54 AM
Hi Giorgioud,
Thanks for your post. Good luck with your project, what are you doing? Do you have some sounds we can hear too? I love mixing influences and think
there is so much you can explore if you are open.
Here are some links to some of our music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyHBu0_7MOE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPLkF8L-gDc&feature=relmfu
http://soundcloud.com/amane-records-japan/tiye-by-rain-in-eden-kell...
Giorgioud - 6-7-2012 at 07:06 AM
Thank you Rubab,
unfortunately I haven't got anything playable at the moment. I am sifting through hours of jams in order to grab the best bits. It's a duo, me on the
oud and the Arab-Andalus mandole and a classically-trained tabla player. As soon as we have a set list ready we'll make a professional recording and
we'll circulate it (and I'll post some pieces on this forum too).
The music has elements of Arabic, Indian, Roma, Greek, Flamenco music, glimpses of free jazz and lots of improvisation. I am not a "traditional" oud
player, quite the opposite (which can be a bummer sometimes), but I am trying to turn it to my advantage by disregarding the "rules" of what should be
played and when. It's working.......
I hope we can start playing live pretty soon.
Congratulations for your music, it really is brilliant! Very original, and played with heart. It is indeed a pout-pourri of many styles, the Silk Road
association is very apt indeed! Marco Polo would have probabily played it on his CD player, were he to have the technology to do so while travelling
from Venice to Zipangu.
Nice one! Good luck to you too! Take care
Giorgio
reminore - 6-7-2012 at 03:51 PM
not to confuse - tuning is the wrong word - i was referring to the 4 most commonly used pitches or keys used in ottoman/turkish fasil music (or
mevlevi, bektasi sufi ayins for that matter). in that musical tradition, the note at 440 hz is read as a D, which is known as bolahenk...supurde is
a step lower, kiz 2.5 steps lower and mansur one step below kiz...in short - the lavta becomes a very versatile instrument since all of these are
easily played on a lavta...fyi - lavta is the turkish pronounciation of the greek name laouto - which has a fingerboard without microtones played
primarily chorded as a rhythm instrument throughout greece...
RubabPlayer - 6-7-2012 at 04:57 PM
Giorgio,
Sounds like we should arrange an event together sometime when you are up and running.
We started our project to find a way to mix my wife's Shamisen playing with my electronic music. That led to trying other ethnic instruments and
before long the band came together.
I have deep respect for traditional music and traditions. And I listen to a lot of that area to learn about the sounds and instruments. But I have an
equal respect for just picking up an instrument that inspires you and running off in your own direction with it. I think that is how all instruments
and music begin before they are formalized.
Giorgioud - 6-8-2012 at 02:37 AM
Hello Rubab,
or may I call you Kelly? Well, I must thank you for the opportunity, I would really be honoured to participate, it could be quite a night. A symbolic
event for a meeting of minds and cultures and, at the same time, an opportunity to fight the homologation and the compartmentation "they" want us to
keep, live, think and feel! I shall let you know asap and keep you informed about my progression.
But what about you, did you record any CDs? How long has the project been going for? I seem to gather you are based in Japan, how long have you been
living there for? My cousin lived in Japan for a while, she's married to a Japanese and now they have a wonderful baby boy who's going to grow up in
Rome, it seems.......
The shamisen is a wonderful instrument, do you play it? Quite interesting, the shamisen music, heavily based on pentatonics....
Yes, I feel the same about the picking an inspiring instrument and doing your own thing with it. Music is about self-expression and communication, and
as long as one does that, technicality doesn't and shouldn't come into the equation.
The best players, for me, are invariably those who have little or no formal training but plenty of soul. I sometimes think that formal training can
actually harm a musician, if said musician wants to innovate before all. This is because the study of the "rules", as they are codifyed, can make a
player sound like anybody else. It really is by a supreme effort that many musical geniuses eschew that by going off in a different tangent,
effectively breaking the rules they spent so much mulling over and therefore making their own.
Having said that, I am planning to go to Tunisia in September and study oud with a local master.....I feel that my musical illiteracy is becoming a
bit of an impediment. I am playing with master musicians at the moment, most of them of Indian extraction, who can play a concert together without
having ever met beforehand because of their reliance on certain cliches they have studied and can fall back on. It would be nice to get even half of
that knowledge, one day................
Ta-da, take care
Giorgio
mavrothis - 6-9-2012 at 04:08 PM
Though I love both instruments, I can't agree that the lavta is more versatile than the oud. A great player on either can do an infinite number of
things, but especially when you are blending instruments and musics from different cultures, I think the oud can fit in more easily b/c it is
unfretted, and has more open strings.
That being said, to really decide between one instrument or another, you need to choose for yourself, not according to what others might say.
Kelly, you should spend a bunch of time on youtube and listening to as many good recordings you can of both instruments, and let your ears decide.
RubabPlayer - 6-9-2012 at 04:18 PM
Hi Mavrothis, Thank you for your post.
Over the past several months I have had the chance to listen to both on Youtube, recordings and anything I could find. In the end the simplest truth
is that I sincerely love them both. For slightly different reasons. My good friend Paul is an Oud player here in Tokyo. He is deeply talented and has
given me several years insight into Oud and what it can do. His mastery of the instrument is a strong selling point for what is possible on the
Oud.
I briefly tried studying Oud when I bought a very modest old Moraccan instrument. It was wonderful to hear and play, but I had a hard time connecting
with it. I am not sure if it was the instrument, its size or the fretless aspect... But I didn't keep it.
The net has been the way I have found most of our instruments. And advice from other players has helped us find good insight. Though you are right, it
is always best to try the instrument.
RubabPlayer - 6-9-2012 at 04:22 PM
On the side of the Lavta, I like the slightly brighter tone that I have heard in recordings and in video. The five course model made in Greece seems
to be quite interesting. And there is a version with sympathetic strings, like my Rubab, that is really interesting too.
Sadly I have not had a chance to play or hear one in person. It seems there are none here in Japan that I can try. Honestly speaking, it is a very
difficult decision. I wish I could choose both. But it isn't possible. On the up side, I may have a trade offer on one of my Persian instruments for
an Oud, so it may become possible to try both. Thanks for your advice.
fernandraynaud - 6-9-2012 at 04:27 PM
I wonder how you tune the instruments you are comfortable with. What I noticed is that I cannot "connect" with instruments tuned in fifths, like the
Saz, and I've concluded it's because I am used to instruments tuned in fourths, like the oud, the electric bass, guitar, etc. Could it be that you
play mainly instruments tuned in fifths?
RubabPlayer - 6-9-2012 at 04:55 PM
That is an interesting point. But I play guitar and other instruments tuned in fourths too. I started out on Guitar and some other strings we use are
in fourths too.
This may sound a little strange, but I think instruments really do have personality. That Oud and I just didn't get along.. I have two Rubabs by the same maker, same size, same tuning, everything... but one
of them just connects with me more and I end up playing it 90% of the time. The other one is better decorated and lovely. But just doesn't inspire me
as much. No idea why.
I think if I can trade out one of the instruments from our shop for a good student Oud, I would like to try again. Or if I can find a good price on a
good sounding entry level instrurment. As fo Lavta, I may hold off until I can give the OUd another Try.
Anyone try the 5 course Lavta?
joh-un - 1-5-2017 at 05:42 AM
There's a 5-course lavta? What's it tuned to?