Mike's Oud Forums

Any dice on Palmyrami, these days?

Wali Fard - 7-18-2012 at 09:14 AM

Hi folks,

Long-time lurker, here, but my first post.

After some deliberation, I ordered a Sukar oud from palmyrami, this past weekend.

It's now wednesday, and they still haven't charged my bank or gotten back to me. Is their shop still in good shape?

Anyone have any experience buying from them?

Thanks,

Fard

Giorgioud - 7-18-2012 at 09:34 AM

Hi Wadi,
I will contact a member of the forum who had some experience with Palmyrami, I'll pass him your user name and he will surely let you know about his experience (which was, as far as I know, positive....he got his oud...)

Wali Fard - 7-18-2012 at 10:31 AM

Awesome, thanks Giorgi! I appreciate it.

fernandraynaud - 7-18-2012 at 04:37 PM

They've been reasonably reliable in the past and have delivered the ones they had in stock within days. I hope you didn't order one that's labeled "in our store in syria", those are another matter ENTIRELY. If you've searched under Palmyrami on the forum, I've warned about that many times. And now with Damascus on fire, I certainly wouldn't count on anything coming out of Syria. If you did order one like that the best thing to do I think would be to cancel the order before it goes any further.

Wali Fard - 7-18-2012 at 08:32 PM

Thanks Fernand.

Actually, it is one of those "wait three weeks for this to arrive " jobs.

Most of the ouds that I liked had this designation, though! Is there a number uuuu can call to see what's actually in the shop? They've been unresponsive to my emails, though it's only been 5 days, I suppose.

Brian Prunka - 7-19-2012 at 06:28 AM

Considering the situation in Damascus, you should cancel this order immediately. Nothing is getting shipped out of Syria in the near future.

fernandraynaud - 7-19-2012 at 04:51 PM

Let me explain once more. Palmyrami are FURNITURE dealers. Wooden objects. Among the wooden objects they import to the US are musical instruments like ouds. They know nothing about ouds, to them they are like chairs. They have a shop in Damascus and they photograph and pack (very thoroughly) all the various wooden objects there, and load up a container. When the container arrives, they put the packed objects on the shelf and offer them for sale. Those are the ones that are shipped very quickly from Michigan. If you order an object that is "in our store in Syria" or make some other deal with them, you can wait for the container, OR they will post it via "Syrian PTT" in Damascus. The latter normally takes 5 weeks or so to reach the US. Give or take.

If an object is unpacked by the customer and found to be unsatisfactory, the ones that came from Michigan are handled well. Palmyrami will accept a return with only a modicum of belly-aching. If your object came from Syria, it's a different story, as they don't know if it was OK when it was packed; the guys in Michigan and the guys in Syria start to quarrel, who's going to bite it on the deal, then they blame the customer and if you aren't psychologically equipped for a knife fight you will not prevail. If you are, you might. Their customary approach to uncertainty is to not answer e-mails. The identity of everyone you correspond with is generic. So I recommend only ordering one of the objects sitting in its box in Michigan. That's pretty simple. When you unpack it it generally correctly matches the photos, e.g. it's a oud, and the right one. Again, do not ask them about details, like the exact length of the legs, or if the chair is comfortable. They can't possibly know. Same with ouds. But I've gotten good Sukars from them and been able to negotiate good prices.

All that is under peacetime conditions. At the present time anyone expecting anything as "orderly" as the above, like routine shipping of wooden doodads out of a country that's in melt-down, with artillery and RPGs supplementing the customary small arms fire, with the port of Latakia under mortar showers, should have his head examined.

fernandraynaud - 7-20-2012 at 04:20 AM

Somebody should perhaps look at the two Model 14s they have in stock at $700 list before Sukars become very difficult to find:

http://www.palmyrami.com/index.php?option=com_jshopping&task=pr...

http://www.palmyrami.com/index.php?option=com_jshopping&task=pr...

The Model 14 has an ebony fingerboard and good ebony pegs. The bowl is some sort of heavy walnut. It's a full-sized and powerful instrument. I have one and it's is a very deep sounding and "soulful" oud.

Wali Fard - 7-20-2012 at 06:32 AM

Thanks for the information.

The 14 ouds look nice, except I can't for the life of me get so much as a pulse from palmyrami. Even their phone number on google checkout is listed as "987.654.3321", which is fishy.

I've canceled the order with google, and am back on the market.

What is the consensus on the Fathi Amin being sold by Arab Instruments? I understand that these are being produced by Fathi's son, Sa9eed.

In terms of quality and tone, how would this compare to the Sukar 12s?

Definitely looking for a more soulful, deep sound with sustain. Two of my favorite records (yes, vinyl) are of Fari Al-Atrash (rabeeha) and Hamza el-din's "water wheel".


thanks gents.

Giorgioud - 7-20-2012 at 10:22 AM

Hi Wali,
I am biased, but I'm so into the Fathy that I've got two! If you're looking for a great oud deep in sustain, a big sound with a cutting edge (as in "a sound that cuts through the air", not as in "trendy") typical of Egyptian oudism, you could do much worse than acquiring a Fathy. Plus, they are loud! I'm talking about neighbours banging throuth the wall! Hopefully your neighbourghs are a bit more refined than mine and they can appreciate a good Fathy when they hear one.....
Here's a custom one played by Abbadi Al-Johar http://youtu.be/XvTUe5kXBJM This one he's another Fathy, check this oudist, he's phenomenal but the sound of the oud's so versatile http://youtu.be/5g2i6m3FpH4 And last but not least, Ahmed Fathi with a Fathy http://youtu.be/BaHMViIbUAk
Of course, the modern Fathys are produced by Sayed. I have never played a vintage Fathy so I cannot compare. I played other ouds, both Turkish and Arabic, and the thing with the Fathy is that it just gets better with the time! The more you play it, the more the sound really comes out. The sign of a good oud. Thing is, I've got one tuned in Standard Arabic and it really has that bass thing to the fore, and the looseness one associates with the sound. The other one's a floating bridge, so it's tuned in High Arabic (or Lebanese or Iraqi), and the reverb-y ambience really make it sound like a qanun sometimes.....
I swear by Fathy, and I shall definetly buy a third one in the future. Farid had a Fathy too, although when they were made by Fathy himself.......but, as Sayed grew up in his father's workshop, and he lerned the trade there, there's no reason to believe that the ouds are not the same. I understand that the craftmanship is virtually identical, and the ouds themselves are checked by Fathy before going out in the world..........

fernandraynaud - 7-20-2012 at 01:56 PM

Fathy Amin's web site sells ouds direct.
http://www.fathy-ameen.com/index_en.html

With what is happening in Syria, I'm not surprised Palmyrami is even more elusive. But on the other hand if you can find one of them dudes, they may be happy to sell inventory at a discount. I would try the Royal Oak Storage that they ship stuff from (248) 591-6580 or (248) 541-4020 which is at the Exact Address that they list.

ameer - 7-20-2012 at 02:19 PM

If you can get ahold of a Sukar 14 or 213 it will get you a wonderful Farid El Atrash type sound. Not so sure about Hamza.
Failing that, any reasonably dark sounding oud with a good bass response should do. Having never tried a Fathi Amin I can't comment on it.

Jason - 7-21-2012 at 07:55 AM

I don't think we'll see Sukars being shipped from Syria to the United States for a long time.

Wali Fard - 7-21-2012 at 01:17 PM

In the musical tradition I've grown up in (north indian/pakistani music), the older instruments tend to be more valuable. Is this true for ouds? Aged wood drying out and giving a larger sound?

I found this auction, and from the label and a little detective work, I discerned that it's a mustafa abu samah from giza...looks a little aged, and possibly missing a peg at the top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110895445857?redirect=mobile

Anyway, I'll come to a decision soon.

I just wanted to thank you gents for all your help and sharing of knowledge, especially with me being an unheard of newbie.

I may not have much to contribute in the oud world, but if ever you need anything related to indian music-v especially the sarangi, which is what I play- shoot me a message!

Thanks!

- fard

fernandraynaud - 7-22-2012 at 02:59 AM

The person selling this oud is not qualified to say anything about it. I don't think it's worth what he's asking for it.

Overall, the older instruments are a lottery. IMHO ouds are on the whole better made nowadays by the educated luthiers like Faruk Turunz, Fadi Matta, and others. The legendary rare old ouds are rare indeed, and there are many forgeries of the instruments of the most famous makers of old, like Manol. In the oud world, 1970 is old. A handful survive from the early twentieth century. If you are not an expert, this is risky stuff, and if you cannot actually play and touch the instrument, it's not likely to lead to satisfaction.

I would humbly suggest you buy a new instrument from one of the smart modern luthiers. Faruk Turunz sells his basic model at $1000. Fadi Matta will make you a fantastic oud for a bit more. Maurice Shehata in Egypt turns out very well made ouds for less. Fathy Amin in Egypt turns out many exquisite instruments. Sukars are simple in appearance but very predictable. I would leave the old ones to people who can tell a stradivarius from firewood.

fernandraynaud - 7-22-2012 at 09:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jason  
I don't think we'll see Sukars being shipped from Syria to the United States for a long time.


Which is why I'm saying that if anyone's in the market for an oud it might be well worth tracking the Palmyrami guys down to grab one of the few Sukars they have in Michigan.

Brian Prunka - 7-23-2012 at 09:06 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  


Overall, the older instruments are a lottery. IMHO ouds are on the whole better made nowadays by the educated luthiers like Faruk Turunz, Fadi Matta, and others. The legendary rare old ouds are rare indeed, and there are many forgeries of the instruments of the most famous makers of old, like Manol. In the oud world, 1970 is old. A handful survive from the early twentieth century. If you are not an expert, this is risky stuff, and if you cannot actually play and touch the instrument, it's not likely to lead to satisfaction.

I would humbly suggest you buy a new instrument from one of the smart modern luthiers. Faruk Turunz sells his basic model at $1000. Fadi Matta will make you a fantastic oud for a bit more. Maurice Shehata in Egypt turns out very well made ouds for less. Fathy Amin in Egypt turns out many exquisite instruments. Sukars are simple in appearance but very predictable. I would leave the old ones to people who can tell a stradivarius from firewood.


If you can deal with a reputable dealer and check the oud in person, you can find great older instruments. They will not be cheap, however.

Forum member John Vergara is making terrific ouds that sound like old-school syrian ouds. Fadi Matta's ouds have a unique sound, but it's not a traditional Arabic sound. Turunz is making Turkish ouds, they too have a unique and (IMO) great sound, but not like the old Arabic sound.

Shehata ouds have a good Arabic sound, so do Sukars. The Shehata ouds typically have nicer finishing details, the Sukars are a bit rougher. If you keep an eye out, used Sukars show up from time to time.

I routinely hear good things about Michael Moussa in England; his ouds are reasonably priced and personally I would buy one of those before a Fadi Matta.

That ebay oud is worth about $150 in IMO.

Brian Prunka - 7-23-2012 at 09:13 AM

There are some Sukars on ebay now from other sellers:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Syrian-Oud-/180853578172?pt=LH_DefaultDomai...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Syrian-Oud-ud-lute-By-Ibrahim-...


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Syrian-Oud-Ibrahim-Sukar-model-213-Hard...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Syrian-Oud-Ibrahim-Sukar-model-212-Hard...

Can't vouch for these sellers, but thought I'd mention it.

fernandraynaud - 7-23-2012 at 04:58 PM

I can say a few things about those Sukars. The first is more expensive than the second, but ornamentation aside not very different, they both have the softer wood fingerboards which are subject to wear unless coated. Arab Instruments also have a model 205 with an ebony fingerboard and ebony pegs for $100 more than the Model 1. That's the best deal. Make sure you fully understand the cost of shipping this size object to Israel if you are counting on the option of a return if unsatisfactory.

http://www.arabinstruments.com/112730/Oud-By-Ibrahim-Sukar-CAT-205#...

Wali Fard - 7-27-2012 at 05:16 AM

Thanks, Fern. I possibly found the best of all worlds- a kind gent on this forum selling his sukar model 6, with upgraded ebony fingerboard and pegs. From the sound samples, it's a real winner and includes a hard case.

Also thinking of picking up a fathy amin down the road, but for now- this will break me in.

Thanks again for your help!

I'll report back with good news, soon.

Sukar Oud

Mascun - 8-22-2012 at 10:46 AM

Same experience here, no response from Palmyrami since July 30, nor from Google Wallet who handled the finances. Guess I'm naive, I thought Palmyrami had them in their warehouse...
Quote: Originally posted by Wali Fard  
Hi folks,

Long-time lurker, here, but my first post.

After some deliberation, I ordered a Sukar oud from palmyrami, this past weekend.

It's now wednesday, and they still haven't charged my bank or gotten back to me. Is their shop still in good shape?

Anyone have any experience buying from them?

Thanks,

Fard

fernandraynaud - 8-22-2012 at 04:06 PM

In the past anyway it's been clear which ones must be shipped from Syria. The ones that didnt say Syria, were in Michigan. So is Palmyrami out of business?
It's too late to talk to anyone now, but both numbers I listed above are working. I'll try if I remember tomorrow.