Mike's Oud Forums

The Art of Taqsim

ahmed_eissa - 8-1-2012 at 12:46 PM

Hello to all,

It's been a while since I've posted here. As I'm sure many can relate, I play many instruments, and unfortunately Oud is the one I am least proficient at and the one I know least about, though I love it the most. Sometimes I get distracted with other instruments and become distracted from my Oud. But I do have those times, (for instance, the past 2 weeks), where I can't put it down!

I have no problem playing songs that I have sheet music, but I really am trying to understand "The Art of Taqsim." It frustrates me when I play a taqsim that I only play one maqam and I tend to end up playing the same patterns. I have read previous posts about a "sayir," which someone described as a specific "path" that each maqam has.

So I guess my question is, how are these sayirs determined for each individual maqam? I am most familiar with maqams Hijaz, Nahawand, and Bayati. I've noticed accomplished Oud players start in a certain maqam, willl explore a few others along the way, and return to the starting maqam. What is the process for determining which maqams naturally fit together or sound well together?

I apologize if this is an in-depth question, I am just really trying to expand my knowledge and abilities on the Oud. If need be, I also have Skype and Facebook, just U2U me and I'll provide my information.


Thanks for any help!

Ahmed; an earnest Oud player.

DoggerelPundit - 8-1-2012 at 04:54 PM

Hi Ahmed_eissa,

We are both going to enjoy, and probably profit from, the wealth of technical material which will arrive in response to your post. Meanwhile, allow me to share a couple of very simple things I think I know about the question.

A maqam can be expressed as a 4 note or 5 note set of intervals. You can begin a taqsim on the first note, and spend some time developing expression of the 4 or 5 notes involved. At some point, when you are "on" or have arrived at the 4th or 5th note, you can use that note as the starting point for a different maqam. You might merely touch on it, giving sort of an instant alternate flavor to your taqsim, or you can develop the second maqam more fully before either modulating again, or returning to the first. There are some "rules" about this which will probably be discussed by those here who know them and their application.

I have been told by good players that a taqsim should be an exposition similar to a speech. Short, simple sentences that lead somewhere, rather than a whole lot of run-on "talking." There are climaxes or high points involved too—and there are rules about that too. I don't know them as I am not that far along.

One other thing. As an exercise, I once heard and saw Halil Karaduman teaching his kanun master class to play each maqam to the 5th note, then begin the same maqam again from that note...from the bottom of the instrument to the top. He said to them "no matter what note you start from, you will always be able to play..." (Rast, Hicaz, Huzzam, Nikriz, Huseyni, etc.)

my 2 cents

-Stephen

Danielo - 8-2-2012 at 12:54 AM

Hi Ahmed,

your question is a very difficult one !

The sayrs are formalized in depth in the Turkish school, not really in the Arabic one (at least today). In Arabic music, sayrs are usually less strictly followed and learnt by earing experienced musicians playing.

Even if you prefer playing maqamat with an Arabic taste rather than with a Turkish one, it worth spending some time learning the Turkish system.

Concerning modulations, some of them are so common that they became part of the definition of the maqam (e.g. using the Hijaz tetrachord on G in bayati); for the less common ones it is mostly a matter of 'taste' that can be acquired, again, only by listening and absorbing lot of music from the masters.


I have read several books concerning these issues, none of them gives a comprehensive view on the subject. Either they are too superficial concerning these aspects, or they are more concerned with historical or theoretical considerations rather than practical ones - even though very interesting, they are not written with the performer in mind.


Dan

Giorgioud - 8-2-2012 at 03:37 AM

Dear Ahmed,
join the club! Haha! You've got the right attitude man, I think if you'll be guided by instinct after a detailed and careful listening, you'll be "taqsim-ing" in no time.....
Now, for the opening of a can of worms: this is only my opinion and it doesn't apply to each single case or musician, but this post only reiterates (for me) how learning how to read music becomes sometimes a bit detrimental in many fields of the music itself. Improvisation, for example. I know scores of Western musicians, classically trained, who not only cannot improvise if their life depended on it, but cannot even pick up a song by ear! Conversely, they can play in an orchestra no problems, as long as a nice, ordered sheet music is provided. This is good for work and in situations where time is limited, so reading music has its uses.
On the other hand, I know many Roma (just to name an example) musicians who haven't got the slightest idea how to read music and couldn't care the slightest, yet they can make their instruments literally talk and can pick up a melody at will, embellishing it and improving it beyond belief.
In my little experience, learning the art of improvisation (taqsim, but it can be extended to all improvisational genres) and reading music are two factors which automatically nullify each other, and the one cannot exist alongside the other, a bit like a man suffering from hunger who has a piece of bread in his pocket.......
I am playing the devil's advocate here, hoping to have a bit of a constructive debate on what makes a simple musician a superb improvisator, and if reading music makes you actually lazy, improvisation-wise.....
It's interesting to note that many of the the aforementioned Roma play what is recognisable as a "maqam" in their "taqsim" pieces, only that not only they don't know how it's called, they don't care about it and they don't know the "rules" which "must" lead from a maqam to another. It's also not a coincidence that many of them collaborate with more conventionally trained musicians of the Middle-East persuation, like Richard Hagopian and Yuri Yanakov (Bulgarian Roma), Esma Redzepova (Macedonian Roma, who knows the art of microtonal melismae but never read music in her life) with Indian masters.
The point is, if you'd start talking music theory with them, they'd hit you on the head with their hard cases. And rightly so.........

conroystoptime - 8-2-2012 at 05:22 AM

I respectfully disagree that the ability to read music and the ability to improvise are mutually exclusive. I'm sure there are many examples, but the first one that comes to mind is the American jazz tradition. From Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker to Miles Davis and John Coltrane to the present day, it's a virtual requirement to be able to sight-read. But obviously there's also no such thing as a master jazz performer who can't improvise.

There are also many oud masters who are literate in the western notation system. Simon Shaheen, for one.

Khalid_Salé - 8-2-2012 at 06:33 AM

Speaking of which, I've been trying to find the following book:

"The art and science of taksim: an empirical analysis of traditional improvisation from 20th century Istanbul" by Frederick W. Stubbs.

I've seen it recommended or cited in a few other things I've read, but I can't find either a hard or soft copy of it. Does anyone here know of it?

Giorgioud - 8-2-2012 at 07:27 AM

Of course, I should've specified that I was referring specifically to Mediterranean/Middle Eastern/Hindutani, even Northern European folk and its descendants (Appalachian, Country and Bluegrass). My fault, I apologise for it.
But yes, I agree what you're saying about the Jazz players of an earlier era, right up to Cool Jazz, where musicians played long and intricate phrases together either in unison of harmonically, which made reading a requirement. However, with the advent of Free Jazz, I think that quality could be overlooked in a musician. I don't think Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra or even Bitches Brew/On the street-era Miles would have passed on a superb improviser only because the player in question couldn't read music......there wasn't any longer the need to play complcated phrases together, of it there was, it wasn't like the earlier eras.......
with respect to people like Simon Shaheen, well, all the major oud players today have some sort of European-style training where they can read music. The deleterious influence of the West.....what I am saying is that I greatly lament the oral tradition passed from master to disciple....the Eastern players dedicate more to the improvisational aspect than the sight-reading one, as they rightly should, but imagine if they could dispense from it altogether and concentrate on other, in my opinion, more important aspects......

Jody Stecher - 8-2-2012 at 08:29 AM

Giorgioud, you are right that musicians who learned aurally from human exemplars tend to have skills that those who learned mainly from the page lack. However now that the can-o-worms has been opened it might be worthwhile examining its contents.

A few worms held up for inspection:

Worm from the can #1: Richard Hagopian is musically literate. (or is that what you meant by "conventionally trained"?)

Can worm #2: reading music does not enable one to hear. this is true. But it does not prevent a musician from being a skilled improviser. It is simply a different skill. Conservatory musicians who cannot improvise are stuck because they have not spent time listening in the right way. It is not their reading skills that keep them from improvising, it is because they haven't spent time relating to music as aural musicians do.

uncanny worm #3: most Indian classical musicians of the past and present *do* know music theory. Some know only raga theory, some know western theory as well. Some can read staff notation and can play western music, some not. there is also an Indian solfege notation which is used as a memory aid. (they don't play with the paper in front of them). This just underscores worm #2 : reading and hearing (or reading and improvising) are separate skills but not antagonistic skills. If your Roma examples were able to read it would not decrease their ability to improvise because reading doesn't cause one to stop listening any more than listening well causes one to lose the ability to read.


Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud  
Dear Ahmed,
join the club! Haha! You've got the right attitude man, I think if you'll be guided by instinct after a detailed and careful listening, you'll be "taqsim-ing" in no time.....
Now, for the opening of a can of worms: this is only my opinion and it doesn't apply to each single case or musician, but this post only reiterates (for me) how learning how to read music becomes sometimes a bit detrimental in many fields of the music itself. Improvisation, for example. I know scores of Western musicians, classically trained, who not only cannot improvise if their life depended on it, but cannot even pick up a song by ear! Conversely, they can play in an orchestra no problems, as long as a nice, ordered sheet music is provided. This is good for work and in situations where time is limited, so reading music has its uses.
On the other hand, I know many Roma (just to name an example) musicians who haven't got the slightest idea how to read music and couldn't care the slightest, yet they can make their instruments literally talk and can pick up a melody at will, embellishing it and improving it beyond belief.
In my little experience, learning the art of improvisation (taqsim, but it can be extended to all improvisational genres) and reading music are two factors which automatically nullify each other, and the one cannot exist alongside the other, a bit like a man suffering from hunger who has a piece of bread in his pocket.......
I am playing the devil's advocate here, hoping to have a bit of a constructive debate on what makes a simple musician a superb improvisator, and if reading music makes you actually lazy, improvisation-wise.....
It's interesting to note that many of the the aforementioned Roma play what is recognisable as a "maqam" in their "taqsim" pieces, only that not only they don't know how it's called, they don't care about it and they don't know the "rules" which "must" lead from a maqam to another. It's also not a coincidence that many of them collaborate with more conventionally trained musicians of the Middle-East persuation, like Richard Hagopian and Yuri Yanakov (Bulgarian Roma), Esma Redzepova (Macedonian Roma, who knows the art of microtonal melismae but never read music in her life) with Indian masters.
The point is, if you'd start talking music theory with them, they'd hit you on the head with their hard cases. And rightly so.........

ahmed_eissa - 8-2-2012 at 09:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DoggerelPundit  
Hi Ahmed_eissa,

We are both going to enjoy, and probably profit from, the wealth of technical material which will arrive in response to your post. Meanwhile, allow me to share a couple of very simple things I think I know about the question.

A maqam can be expressed as a 4 note or 5 note set of intervals. You can begin a taqsim on the first note, and spend some time developing expression of the 4 or 5 notes involved. At some point, when you are "on" or have arrived at the 4th or 5th note, you can use that note as the starting point for a different maqam. You might merely touch on it, giving sort of an instant alternate flavor to your taqsim, or you can develop the second maqam more fully before either modulating again, or returning to the first. There are some "rules" about this which will probably be discussed by those here who know them and their application.

I have been told by good players that a taqsim should be an exposition similar to a speech. Short, simple sentences that lead somewhere, rather than a whole lot of run-on "talking." There are climaxes or high points involved too—and there are rules about that too. I don't know them as I am not that far along.

One other thing. As an exercise, I once heard and saw Halil Karaduman teaching his kanun master class to play each maqam to the 5th note, then begin the same maqam again from that note...from the bottom of the instrument to the top. He said to them "no matter what note you start from, you will always be able to play..." (Rast, Hicaz, Huzzam, Nikriz, Huseyni, etc.)

my 2 cents

-Stephen


Thank you for that information. Thinking about what you said, it makes sense when I hear accomplished players taqsim, and how they develop the expression of the first maqam before advancing to a noticeable shift. I would like to clarify a few things you said though, dealing with the "4th/5th note transition."

Let's take Hijaz for example: D, Eb, F#, G, A, Bb, C, d(octave)

The 4th and 5th notes are G and A, respectively. When I switch to another maqam, do I pick a maqam that typically starts on G or A? Such as Shadd Araban or Suzidil? I guess the main thing I'm trying to figure out if there are rules to which maqams to pick to play and modulate with, based on your starting maqam. Or maybe you can play anyone you would like? I just assume that, obviously, certain maqams sound better with each other than others, so I'm wondering the rule.

Thanks for the help!

Anyone can feel free to join in.

Giorgioud - 8-2-2012 at 10:28 AM

Yeah, great stuff Jody. Good points. I am just interested in hearing some different points of view. For "conventionally trained" I meant "musically literate".
I am interested because I am "musically illiterate", so to speak, (I can read music but so slowly that it counts as illiterate in my opinion) and I have always concentrated on my ear, which I must say served me quite well over the years.
Now, I am going to take lessons with an oud master in Tunis and I kind of told him that it would do me no favours to spend time reading sheet music. It's not where I'm coming from, and I still believe firmly that for me it always worked better learning by the ear.
I just wanted to know some different points of view on the subject, within the framework of the (reductive and generalised term) "Eastern" music, even playing the devil's advocate to stir some shoot, and because it's fun!!!
That Miles Davis album is called "on the corner", for God's sake, I wrote "on the street" instead, I haven't listened to it for 20 years........

DoggerelPundit - 8-2-2012 at 03:57 PM

Ahmed_eissa,

"When I switch to another maqam, do I pick a maqam that typically starts on G or A?...etc... Anyone can feel free to join in."

This would be a good place to drag in Eric Ederer (he of the Nautalauta). This summer he taught a fine master class at the Middle East music & dance camp in Mendocino, with all kinds of practical discussion and examples. Perhaps he will read this thread and join in.

Taking your example of Hicaz, you might "turn the corner" i.e. modulate, from either the G or the A into another maqam entirely. As I understand it, any maqam has the same set of intervals no matter what note you start from. Try a few and see what sounds good to you. Actually, I am hoping someone here will join in with some clear information on taqsim connected rules. More knowledge is always welcome.

My 2 cents on the "musically literate" vs. Improvisational mind; I recommend listening to the Armenian clarinetist Hachig Kazarian. I have heard him at the Fresno picnics improvise beautiful taqsims and solos for 3 hours at a time, "yet" he is a Julliard graduate.

In the film Never On Sunday, Taki - the bouzouki player at the taverna - hides in a bathroom and refuses to play another note. This is because he answered "no" when asked if he could read music, and so was told he was not a "real" musician. He joyously goes back to playing after Melina Mercouri asks him "Taki, do the birds read music?"

-Stephen

keving - 8-4-2012 at 08:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé  
Speaking of which, I've been trying to find the following book:

"The art and science of taksim: an empirical analysis of traditional improvisation from 20th century Istanbul" by Frederick W. Stubbs.

I've seen it recommended or cited in a few other things I've read, but I can't find either a hard or soft copy of it. Does anyone here know of it?


You can try to contact him directly:
n e y z e n @ a o l . c o m

Mention that Kevin (thats me) directed you to him. He is very supportive of people learning the tradition. Good Luck!

Khalid_Salé - 8-4-2012 at 09:18 AM

Thanks very much for this Kevin, I'll email him forthwith!

Rambaldi47 - 8-10-2012 at 08:05 AM

It would be beneficial if experienced performers could pitch in here and explain
their individual approaches to improvisation/modulation. What is the process
going in one's head that produces such beautiful and unique taqsims? Does it mainly
involve practicing and remembering phrases in a certain maqam to choose from
and then learning which connections between the maqams work or sound better than
others? How important is experimentation on the spot for a performer?

There's this old thread dealing with the same issue that also didn't get much impetus
or maybe it did spawn other threads that I wasn't able to find by searching.

Take this invaluable recording for example. It is Saleh Abdel-Hay's Eshna wa-Shufna (Dalansheen),
but the majority of the recording is taqsims, Samai'i and mawal around Rast.
I'd love to see a complete analysis for each of the taqsims here
and Saleh's vocal improvisation with the qanun accompanying
him. Obviously a difficult and tiresome task, but one that would
greatly benefit everyone.

Brian Prunka - 8-10-2012 at 12:24 PM

The notion that reading music, playing by ear, and improvising have any sort of inherent conflict at the level of the individual musician is preposterous and not really worthy of discussion.

Certainly at the macro level of an entire musical culture, there is something to the idea that a culture that stresses reading over ear development or improvisation will wind up with many musicians who can read but not play by ear or improvise.

Of course, if one is only going to learn one part of being a musician, it is the ear that is most important. However, for professional musicians it is simply not enough to just learn by ear (unless you intend to be very limited in the pool of musicians you work with and the kind of music you want to play).

There is absolutely no reason why one should avoid learning to read music. Does learning to read language impede your ability to think and form sentences, or to compose paragraphs? Of course not, and it is the same with music.

Simon Shaheen and Bassam Saba are two examples of musicians who can read music at the highest levels, yet learned Arabic music and taqasim in the traditional aural fashion and can exercise both abilities at the highest levels.

As previously mentioned, it has always been a requirement to be an excellent reader in order to be a jazz musician--with very few exceptions, there are thousands of accomplished improvisers in jazz history who were excellent readers. Ornette Coleman is an outlier, and in fact he can read music and does require the musicians who play with him to read music as well. Many "free jazz" musicians still write out compositions (although they may use unconventional notation at times) and can read music and usually require that ability in their collaborators.
Regardless, the existence of some exceptions does not matter, as the proposition "reading music interferes with improvisational ability" is completely refuted by the mere existence of John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Bill Evans, Thelonious Monk, John Zorn, Bill Frisell, Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Wayne Shorter, Herbie, Vijay Iyer, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Mark Turner, etc. etc.


It ultimately comes down to the motivation, effort, focus, dedication, and ability of the individual musician in question.

It is true that a lazy student who can read a bit can use that ability to encourage his lazier tendencies, but that is correlation and not causation. I've met good ear players who couldn't read who used their ears to be lazy as well. At a certain point, there are no excuses (unless you are blind--even then you have to be much better than the competition to merit an exception): unless your ear is good enough to hear something one time and then play it flawlessly from memory with no mistakes months later, you need to learn to read music if you want to play professionally.

Amos - 8-10-2012 at 01:45 PM

very well said Brian, as usual.

ahmed_eissa - 8-10-2012 at 04:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Rambaldi47  
It would be beneficial if experienced performers could pitch in here and explain
their individual approaches to improvisation/modulation. What is the process
going in one's head that produces such beautiful and unique taqsims? Does it mainly
involve practicing and remembering phrases in a certain maqam to choose from
and then learning which connections between the maqams work or sound better than
others? How important is experimentation on the spot for a performer?

There's this old thread dealing with the same issue that also didn't get much impetus
or maybe it did spawn other threads that I wasn't able to find by searching.


You seem to have asked the questions better than I did in my original post. I am interested in learning how to modulate so I can "tell a tale" with a taqsim and not just stay in one maqam. Thank you for linking that old thread, there's a lot of advice and explanation that has helped me.

This thread has turned into the old debate of ear training vs. classical training, which can be highly entertaining and enlightening to read, but is off of the topic that I made this thread about.

If anyone would still like to contribute by posting some responses to the questions Rambaldi has listed above, or perhaps others (such as how to go about picking whether to modulate the upper or lower jins, and the reason for doing so), please feel free!

I hope that "the art of taqsim" can be broken down in its simplest form for all beginner oud players on this forum and browsing the internet so they can learn how to play beautiful music.

Lysander - 8-4-2014 at 11:18 AM

Two year bump.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this very important topic has gone round in circles. The important questions of:

"What is the process going in one's head that produces such beautiful and unique taqsims? Does it mainly involve practicing and remembering phrases in a certain maqam to choose from
and then learning which connections between the maqams work or sound better than others?"

have not been answered. And I think this is central to understanding how to build a taqsim. We are not talking about how to understand a maqam, what the seyir is, what the ajnas are etc, how to modulate, but exactly what are the creative building blocks involved in getting oud taqsims to sound professional and full of variety.