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Need help - Which tune is this?

oudy allen - 8-2-2012 at 04:13 PM

Hey guys,

Since I'm quite new into playing the oud yet I need some help regarding a special tuning. I own a Sukar oud and have tuned it currently C G A d g c. I've seen a video on YouTube showing a guy playing exactly the songs I want to play on the oud.

The problem is, I don't know how he has tuned his instrument. It's obviously not the above tuning. Could somebody tell me, which kind of tuning this is? Is it Iraqi style?

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsmbumQmhbw&list=UUxSocrihdt-NKP...

Jody Stecher - 8-2-2012 at 05:05 PM

He is tuned slightly higher than Bb (or C) F G c f b flat. This is the same tuning you are using but lower. I just watched 5 videos of this player using different ouds and he stays in the same tuning although the actual pitches he tunes to vary. In the video to which you provided a link I don't think he uses the bass string so I can't say for sure about that one. He is tuned between a half and whole step lower than you but with the same arrangement, the same intervals between the strings. The four highest pitched courses are tuned in fourths just as in every other oud tuning. The fifth course is tuned an octave below the second course. The bass will be either an octave below the the third course or two octaves below the first course. So where you use (for instance) A for your fourth course he is tuned here a bit higher than G but not as high as G #. But it's really your familiar tuning with the strings slacker, that's all.

oudy allen - 8-3-2012 at 11:47 AM

I really appreciate your help. Thank you very much. Before I'm going to give it a try on my oud, please kindly tell me if this player uses the same tuning as the first one I showed you above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERg28xwq2o0&feature=related

It seems to me that he also uses a slightly lower tuning than I do, doesn't he?

Have a nice evening!

Jody Stecher - 8-3-2012 at 12:27 PM

Read my reply again please. Yes he's tuned lower than you in the video in question. It is the relationship between his strings that is the same as your usual tuning, not the actual pitches. your highest string pair (course) for instance is C. His highest course is close to B flat. Let's call it B Flat. Your next course down is G. His is F. Look at the relationship between your two highest courses. The interval between G and C is a perfect fourth. G A B C = 1 2 3 4. Now look at the intervals between *his* highest two courses. F G A B flat. a perfect fourth. And so on for all the courses. Still not clear? OK. Play the video and when you see him play an open course, tune that same course on your oud *down* to that pitch. Now stop the video and tune the rest of your oud so that the strings are in the same relationship to each other as they were when your oud was tuned higher (to C G A d g c). You will now be in tune with him.

Jody Stecher - 8-3-2012 at 12:31 PM

WHOOPS. sorry, my mistake. I hadn't clicked the link and misunderstood and thought you were asking about the player in your original link. Yes this is the same tuning but not as low as the first player but still lower than your tuning. But the same relationship of pitches.

oudy allen - 8-3-2012 at 01:01 PM

Hehe... yeah that's what I was talking about

ok, great I've just tried that tuning you told me and it sounds quite the same as in the first video. Aside from the Iraqi style tuning, are the relationships between the courses in arabic tunings always the same? I mean is the only difference how high or low you pitch the tuning or are we just talking about one particular tuning relationship (classic arabic tuning)?

Jody Stecher - 8-3-2012 at 02:02 PM

There are any number of forum members more expert than me and they may give more complete or precise answers but since you asked *me*: This is typical old style Armenian-Turkish tuning. This is Kurdish music and this is the first time I've heard it with oud, and I like it. The Kurdish area (Kurdistan) straddles the political borders of Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and Iran. The musicians in the videos seem to be in Iraq but political entities come and go and Kurds remain Kurds. The most common Arabic tuning these days is like the one you use but with the fifth course down one step to F. "Iraqi tuning" may refer to the arrangement where the bass course is moved from the usual position closest to the sky and placed in the position closest to the earth. Sometimes "Iraqi tuning" means that it is the arrangement of arabic tuning but a fourth higher so the highest (and lowest) pitch is F. The bass course may be moved or not. Jamil Bashir had both of the characteristics I just mentioned but one step higher (G). Some players who lived in Iraq used the usual Arabic tuning. So "Iraqi tuning" may mean different things or overlapping things. The tuning you use may be used in Arabic music. Also D G A d g c. Just like your tuning but with the bass up one step. Also your tuning with the fifth course at E. Check out the *search* function on this website and you can get a lot of info about tunings in detail. But really all tunings I have seen or heard amount to the same thing: the four courses that are highest in pitch are always in 4ths. Anything lower is tuned according to maqam, or according to local custom, or according to how much pressure a particular oud can withstand, or according to the gauge of string available, or according to other circumstances.

oudy allen - 8-4-2012 at 03:37 AM

Thanks a lot Jody. Yes you're right. The players in the videos are from Iraqi Kurdistan. Besides saz, kemence, daf, bouzouq and other typical middle eastern instruments, the oud is also very common in Kurdish music, especially in the Iraqi and Iranian Kurdish areas. :airguitar:

If you want you can check these out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaaKjD7NTY8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCGk_a9ooNE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVClzcdwclw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNAVodCz8iU

You said Armenian-Turkish tuning but I've always thought that Armenian-Turkish tuning was pitched much higher than Arabic tuning. The tunings in the videos I showed you are even lower than the standard Arabic tuning I use. How come that they are Armenian-Turkish style?

Jody Stecher - 8-4-2012 at 07:01 AM

I was talking about the relationship of the strings. The absolute pitch is not essential to the identity of the tuning. Higher pitch might be determined by the voice of a singer or other circumstantial conditions. Yes most Turkish ouds have a shorter vibrating string length) so higher pitch is what usually is chosen.
In early 20th century a typical Turkish oud player (who might be Greek or Jewish or Armenian) didn't think of the second course as A or G. It was Neva. So C G A d g c and D A B e a d are the same tuning. Here in the usa this is the usual tuning used by the descendants of Armenian immigrants and by their students. Nowadays in Turkey the common tuning (especially for Ottoman music) is all fourths. if Neva is *a* then the tuning is C#F# B e a d. Only the two lowest courses are different than the older tuning which in my message I characterized as "armenian-turkish" to telegraph an idea. As to why Kurds would use this tuning it's an old tuning from the region and handy for the repertoire. the newer tuning of all fourths gives an extended range but that is not necessarily an advantage for the kind of music on these Kurdish videos.

Quote: Originally posted by oudy allen

Thanks a lot Jody. Yes you're right. The players in the videos are from Iraqi Kurdistan. Besides saz, kemence, daf, bouzouq and other typical middle eastern instruments, the oud is also very common in Kurdish music, especially in the Iraqi and Iranian Kurdish areas. :airguitar:

oudy allen - 8-4-2012 at 03:03 PM

Hey Jody, well you opened my eyes because I had not looked at the different kind of tunings from this point of view. I'd always thought that the tunings were fundamentally different from each other but actually they are not since, as you've already pointed out, only their pitch is different. The relationship between the courses (at least the first four courses) remains always the same (in 4ths). Now everything makes much more sense. Thanks a lot for this lesson

Can you say that oud players always stick to this particular relationship?

Jody Stecher - 8-4-2012 at 08:30 PM

You might want to ask someone more knowledgeable than me. But so far, I've encountered no oud tuning that deviates from the four highest courses being in fourths. Well, let me qualify that — there are some four course double strung oud-like instruments in Tunisia and Algeria that have "reentrant" tunings which means that the courses do not progress steadily upward (Or downward if you count the other way). The "Oud Arbi " of Constantine is one such. And then there are various versions of kwitra. Thanks for the links to the Kurdish oud music, I enjoyed listening.

Quote: Originally posted by oudy allen

Hey Jody, well you opened my eyes because I had not looked at the different kind of tunings from this point of view. I'd always thought that the tunings were fundamentally different from each other but actually they are not since, as you've already pointed out, only their pitch is different. The relationship between the courses (at least the first four courses) remains always the same (in 4ths). Now everything makes much more sense. Thanks a lot for this lesson

Can you say that oud players always stick to this particular relationship?

oudy allen - 8-5-2012 at 04:34 AM

Fine, thank you so much. As for the Kurdish oud music, you are more than welcome. Cheers!