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vi- The number and the mounting of the mufflers.

Wonderful!
Please continue.... !

BTW, what are the "mufflers"?

thanks Usta

farukturunz - 9-7-2012 at 11:53 PM

vi- The number and the mounting of the mufflers.

Wonderful!
Please continue.... !

BTW, what are the "mufflers"?

thanks Usta

Eddi, my friend!

All the wise guys are silent...(Muffler has a connotation very well fits the tone of this thread I posted)

You are one of the members who really deal with the factual aspect of these forums: To exchange information.

No need to emphasize that you are a complete artist who composes music, plays many instruments, and a researching luthier...

Mufflers = Silencers

Thanks

Edward Powell - 9-8-2012 at 12:02 AM

Mufflers = Silencers

I have heard a bit about luthier's doing some things to attempt to actually limit certain vibrations - perhaps as a way of restricting resonance in certain areas --- or rather "redirecting the energy" to other areas. . . .

. . .but I didn't realise this was done with oud SB construction. . .

Specifically, what physical pieces are these 'mufflers'?

farukturunz - 9-8-2012 at 01:22 AM

Specifically, what physical pieces are these 'mufflers'?

They are pieces of wood welts. They are composed of two short wooden welts attached to each other in the shape of (T) and the horizontal part is located parallel to the S.B. grains and the other part perpendicular to the bowl.
During the alternation process of all the typically different oud "genus" innumerable makers must have tried innumerable ways to overcome innumerable difficulties. To reach a brilliant sound the edges must be made resonant for very high frequencies. This may be accessed by making the edges of the S.B quite thin, but this causes a continuum of those oscillation thus the oscillation of the whole package of the vibration which is composed of fundamental frequency and innumerable overtones.

Thinning the edges must have arisen a fatal problem for the durability of the S.B.

To overcome this they must have devised putting some extra supporters every where tending to cave in. And the result came out as that typical percussive, crisp, fast decaying, sooo liked "Arabian" sound.

It has not been especially targeted but an outcome of the precautions taken for hampering a total crash of the S.B.

Edward Powell - 9-8-2012 at 08:07 AM

hmmm.... that is fascinating. I have seen innumerable soundboards being built by many makers including yourself, of course... and I have never noticed these mufflers. Did I miss them, or are they not being typically used today?

thanks

farukturunz - 9-8-2012 at 08:58 AM

hmmm.... that is fascinating. I have seen innumerable soundboards being built by many makers including yourself, of course... and I have never noticed these mufflers. Did I miss them, or are they not being typically used today?

thanks

We used to call them "susturucu" and had stopped using them some time before you started attending my workshop.

Edward Powell - 9-8-2012 at 10:01 AM

We used to call them "susturucu" and had stopped using them some time before you started attending my workshop.

So what are they...? Do they look like this fotos? Something like this?

Edward Powell - 9-8-2012 at 10:10 AM

To reach a brilliant sound the edges must be made resonant for very high frequencies.

Edward Powell - 9-8-2012 at 10:13 AM

...now I am confused. I have always heard the thinning the SB around the edges will boost the bass since it allows the entire SB to move and pump like a "woofer", but you are saying that this should boost the very highs? I thought the highs come from the tight areas around the bridge, and the bulky braces around the bridge (and obviously the bridge itself).

farukturunz - 9-8-2012 at 12:22 PM

...now I am confused. I have always heard the thinning the SB around the edges will boost the bass since it allows the entire SB to move and pump like a "woofer", but you are saying that this should boost the very highs? I thought the highs come from the tight areas around the bridge, and the bulky braces around the bridge (and obviously the bridge itself).

this is the complexity of the all construction. While the thin edges administer the "woofer" function; they also correspond with the very high frequencies. Thin material fits better -in the total movement- the fine vibrations and this is so logical. Please try to remember what happens if you put 0.70 mm PVF strings in place of 0.50mm diameter. The high overtones fade away with the thicker ones. This is so similar in the thin edges case. But in addition to this fine vibrations (parallel to the wave fineness) the thin edges function as "woofer"s as well. Neither of these are against to each other. They occur at the same time and nonetheless to create an accurate model one needs to make different experiments keeping these indications in mind carefully.

Edward Powell - 9-8-2012 at 02:22 PM

Aha, this makes a lot of sense. Perhaps it might explain why often it seems that good highs and good bass often go together.

Perhaps the "old school" Turkish oud sounds didn't use any extra thinning about the edges? since it seems the old turk sound was more strong in mids and less in high and bass?? ...or what's your opinion about this 'old school' sound? Am I out to lunch on that one - or would you agree that this is an old turkish sound?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgobGjQaSqw&feature=plcp

ALAMI - 9-9-2012 at 10:58 AM

Dear master Faruk, I agree that it is fascinating, thank you for sharing.
In your brace tuning system, I am curious about the amount of the digital and analog parts. Previously you mentioned, and showed, screen shots, of vibrating surface analysis using Ansys software. Do you think that digital technology is able to be accurate?

When I was designing the Golden Mean oud, I contacted a software company (from Dassault Group) who referred me to a professor in the EPFL (Ecole Polytechnique de Lausanne), Being myself an old student of this university, he accepted to share with me some of their researches, we had some long conversations and his opinion was that no numeric model is yet able to simulate the complexity of a wooden sound board (I lost the laptop where I had the papers), he was still believing that although they can do it accurately for metal and plastic, wood is still way beyond their reach.

It seems that no technology can yet replace the empiric know how, the experience p and the ears of a luthier. What are your thoughts about this?

farukturunz - 9-9-2012 at 11:56 AM

Dear master Faruk, I agree that it is fascinating, thank you for sharing.
In your brace tuning system, I am curious about the amount of the digital and analog parts. Previously you mentioned, and showed, screen shots, of vibrating surface analysis using Ansys software. Do you think that digital technology is able to be accurate?

When I was designing the Golden Mean oud, I contacted a software company (from Dassault Group) who referred me to a professor in the EPFL (Ecole Polytechnique de Lausanne), Being myself an old student of this university, he accepted to share with me some of their researches, we had some long conversations and his opinion was that no numeric model is yet able to simulate the complexity of a wooden sound board (I lost the laptop where I had the papers), he was still believing that although they can do it accurately for metal and plastic, wood is still way beyond their reach.

It seems that no technology can yet replace the empiric know how, the experience p and the ears of a luthier. What are your thoughts about this?

Dear ALAMI,
I appreciate your fasitiousness and timidity in your viewpoint about digital technologies’ efficiency for analizing any wooden soundboard.
This is a controlling attitude of many luthiery related people that the wood is not a homogenious material.
That’s true. Wood is not a material composed of calculable peculiarities.
Nevertheless, ANSYS program requires (during an analize) what the Young Modulus figures are for the three dimensions: Logitudinal, transverse and cross-sectional.
You can find some researches made by several prestigious research institutes embodied some esteemed universities. Here is a sample for those researches titled as “Modeling of piano sounds using FEM simulation of soundboard vibration": http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acoustics2008/cd1/data/articles/0...
I am not a person who seeks shelter in an authority to defend own thoughts…But this axample implies a tendency in the efforts of understanding the soundboards.
I am not arrogating or have not adduced that ANSYS can be used for constructing a soundboard . Never!
All I want to share is the complexity of a soundboard is too much beyond our imagination. By changing the controllable parameters we can understand which of them are related to which feature(s) of the sound. That’s it.
Of course through a modern person’s eyes there is no any mystical esence in it. Of course some despises this sort of attitude or point of wiev. I agree with them also. Of course I have a very good argument to becalm them: The mystical extension of the creation is stil there. A mystical fenomenon occured and introduced to us a new magical power to understand some ethereal objects. :bowdown:

As for your last question "It seems that no technology can yet replace the empiric know how, the experience p and the ears of a luthier. What are your thoughts about this?"

I never contemplate to handover my mastership to any digital technology

ALAMI - 9-9-2012 at 01:20 PM

Well, having spent a few weeks of my spare time on the subject won't give me enough knowledge to discuss the knowledge of someone who spent on this 30-40 years full time.... We can call it timidity if we want.
The study you linked to seems interesting and more advanced than was available in 2007. It won't be easy for me to refresh my dusty calculus and Algebra.

I noticed that you seem to make a difference between what you call "controllable parts" of a soundboard and the "rest". So the idea is to use a numeric model to narrow the trial and error process to the minimum possible.

My interest in the subject was then related to an " intuition" that the nature of the radically assymetric design I was working on calls for curved braces and all those I talked to told me that It can't be done and, having zero woodworking knowledge but being good with 3D and simulation softwares I wanted to try it virtually.

Regarding what is scientific and what is mystical when it comes to oud making, it would be a long discussion and we all want to believe that our instrument is not just wood and numeric knowledge. When a musician talks about the timbre of an instrument it is always subjective and I believe that timbre is not measurable. We've seen that even describing with words what is Turkish or Arabic sound is a hazardous exercise.
As a scientific guy, I love to understand how things work, but as an oriental guy I still believe that what makes me say "aah" to a sound or a voice is mystical. :bowdown:

farukturunz - 9-9-2012 at 02:54 PM

Well, having spent a few weeks of my spare time on the subject won't give me enough knowledge to discuss the knowledge of someone who spent on this 30-40 years full time.... We can call it timidity if we want.
The study you linked to seems interesting and more advanced than was available in 2007. It won't be easy for me to refresh my dusty calculus and Algebra.

I noticed that you seem to make a difference between what you call "controllable parts" of a soundboard and the "rest". So the idea is to use a numeric model to narrow the trial and error process to the minimum possible.

My interest in the subject was then related to an " intuition" that the nature of the radically assymetric design I was working on calls for curved braces and all those I talked to told me that It can't be done and, having zero woodworking knowledge but being good with 3D and simulation softwares I wanted to try it virtually.

Regarding what is scientific and what is mystical when it comes to oud making, it would be a long discussion and we all want to believe that our instrument is not just wood and numeric knowledge. When a musician talks about the timbre of an instrument it is always subjective and I believe that timbre is not measurable. We've seen that even describing with words what is Turkish or Arabic sound is a hazardous exercise.
As a scientific guy, I love to understand how things work, but as an oriental guy I still believe that what makes me say "aah" to a sound or a voice is mystical. :bowdown:

I appreciate your feelings and leave the priority to you with respect, for making the final remark

But with a simple question: Haven't I laid out many information from top to bottom of this thread dealing with the oud making art smelling some "intuition" and perception?

Edward Powell - 9-9-2012 at 05:21 PM

This is my favorite type of SOUNDBOARD!
:bounce:

farukturunz - 9-10-2012 at 03:28 AM

!

ALAMI - 9-11-2012 at 08:20 AM

Full Length recent Research Paper:
Vibration analysis in the design and construction of an acoustic guitar

Closer to our world.

On page 5-6 of the pdf there are some infos about the mechanics of wood, thought it is interesting

Attachment: Gorrostieta-Hurtado et al.pdf (949kB)
This file has been downloaded 4322 times

farukturunz - 9-12-2012 at 03:20 AM

Full Length recent Research Paper:
Vibration analysis in the design and construction of an acoustic guitar

Closer to our world.

On page 5-6 of the pdf there are some infos about the mechanics of wood, thought it is interesting

Dr.Rolf Bader published a book titled "Computational Mechanics of the Classical Guitar "

http://www.amazon.com/Computational-Mechanics-Classical-Guitar-Bade...

Regards.

ALAMI - 9-12-2012 at 08:20 AM

Dr.Rolf Bader published a book titled "Computational Mechanics of the Classical Guitar "

http://www.amazon.com/Computational-Mechanics-Classical-Guitar-Bade...

Regards.

...and yesterday I was (unsuccessfully) trying to by "On The Construction of Lute Belly".

Mr Turunz if you keep dragging me into this, and as I am not sure I can have a lifetime for this, I will have to come to Istanbul, take you as hostage (it is our national sport these days) and make you do those curved braces for me.

)
I make good Turkish coffee and I am a good cook

farukturunz - 9-12-2012 at 08:39 AM

[rquote
Mr Turunz if you keep dragging me into this, and as I am not sure I can have a lifetime for this, I will have to come to Istanbul, take you as hostage (it is our national sport these days) and make you do those curved braces for me.

)
I make good Turkish coffee and I am a good cook[/ rquote]

No! No! Please... I am ready to accept all your conditions to surrender :xtreme:

But why not to welcome a very enthusiastic gentlemen who also makes good Turkish coffee and is a good cook. Please bring with you one ton of coffee mixed with cardamom which is hard to find here nowadays...Tastelessness is knee deep here really

ALAMI - 9-12-2012 at 12:40 PM

And that would a major reason (on top of many) to schedule this long delayed visit to lovely Istanbul....looking forward to meet you.
I'll show you a trick with cardamom and you show me a trick with soundboards. :cool:

farukturunz - 9-12-2012 at 08:34 PM

OK. with pleasure

But, I see that I am still unsuccessful in showing that there is no any trick in it

It is just a simple application of the Physics

Trick with Cardamom is out of my knowledge but I love coffee with it :applause:

farukturunz - 9-13-2012 at 08:16 PM

I will have to come to Istanbul, take you as hostage (it is our national sport these days)

By the way... If you don't mind... Are you Lebanese? :applause:

ALAMI - 9-14-2012 at 01:59 AM

I will have to come to Istanbul, take you as hostage (it is our national sport these days)

By the way... If you don't mind... Are you Lebanese? :applause:

Hmm... Now you're taking me seriously

Yes I am.....and in the light of recent insanities....it would be "unfortunately yes"

farukturunz - 9-14-2012 at 02:13 AM