Mike's Oud Forums

medieval mandolin

theodoropoulos - 11-6-2012 at 04:00 AM



i need to build this thing here but i dont have any plans,dimensions,no nothing...:(
can anyone help??
thanks guys!!:bounce::xtreme:

Hello

siaka1974 - 11-6-2012 at 05:46 AM

Hier is a plan for this instrument!!!!

jdowning - 11-6-2012 at 06:09 AM

It looks like a 17th C (or 18th C?), 6 course Mandolino (it is not from the Medieval period). It would have been strung in gut and played with fingertips (like a lute) or plectrum. Usually they were strung with double courses (this one has a single top course) or sometimes only single courses throughout.It will have a lute like bowl (ie rounded not flat like some modern steel strung mandolins).
Interesting that this example has a lute like rosette.

Where is this instrument located? Are you intending to copy this particular instrument - or any other Mandolino of the period (a few do survive)?

What string length do you have in mind?
Given the string length you could always make a reasonable copy scaled directly from the above image. Also overall width of the fingerboard at the nut end would be around 45 mm to give some idea of the size of the original. These were quite small instruments - often narrower in width than the example in the image you have posted.

theodoropoulos - 11-6-2012 at 09:09 AM

the idea came from here...i think it is called Lombardo..
Vivaldi with this mandolin

and this i s a small history:
history
i have no idea about scale length... or anything ..
i will try to find ...
by the way
Thanks for the plans...AMAZING!!!!:applause::applause:
VERY VERY HELPFUL!!!

jdowning - 11-6-2012 at 04:05 PM

A definitive study of the early mandolin of the 16th, 17th and 18th C and history is in the publication "The Early Mandolin - the mandolino and the Neoplolitan mandoline" by James Tyler and Paul Sparks, 1989 Clarendon Press, Oxford, Early Music series.

I had the opportunity some years ago to examine and measure six examples of Italian mandolinos in the Charles van Raalte collection at the Dean Castle museum, Kilmarnock, Scotland - courtesy of Curator, James Hunter.
The string lengths of these instruments ranged from 277 mm to 337 mm with dates ranging from 1655 to 1767.
I am not sure if all of these instruments have remained in the collection but these are the mandolinos examined by me:

1655, Enrico Ebar, 5 double courses - string length 287 mm.

1736, Gio. Guiseppe Fontanelli, Bologna, 5 double courses - string length 334 mm. There are three braces on the soundboard - two on each side of the soundhole, sloping about 16° to the bass side and - interestingly - a brace under the bridge like an oud.

1755, Michel Angelo Bergonzi, Cremona, 6 double courses - string length 297 mm. Note that Bergonzi was a pupil of famed violin maker Antonio Stradivarius (who also made mandolinos and guitars).

1767, Fedele Barnia Milanese, Venice, 6 double courses - string length 310 mm.

1767, Petrus Merighi, Parma, 6 double courses - string length 277 mm.

Unknown date and maker, 7 single courses - string length 337 mm.

Note that if you are interested in the type of mandolino that Vivaldi composed for these would have predated his death in1741. Antonio Stradivari died in 1737 so his surviving mandolinos would be OK as models and perhaps any earlier surviving examples made by his pupil Bergonzi (although Bergonzi was only aged 18 on the death of Stradivari).
The plan posted by Siaka1974 looks like it has been based upon a Stradivari mandolino. I must check my files later to confirm that.

Interesting to note also that - according to Tyler and Sparks - there appears to be no evidence for use of a plectrum prior to 1771 although it might be speculated that a plectrum might have been used at an earlier date than this to produce a louder sound for a mandolino played as part of an orchestra.



jdowning - 11-6-2012 at 05:05 PM

..... and here for information is an image of the Bergonzi mandolino in the Charles van Raalte collection, Dean Castle museum


http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/imageGen.ashx?image=%2fmedia%2f10189%...

jdowning - 11-6-2012 at 05:26 PM

..... and an interesting series of images of a surviving 5 course Stradivarius mandolino dated 1680 restored by luthier Chris Challen on the Mandolin Cafe website - includes images of the original case.

Note that the Bergonzi instrument at Dean Castle also survives with its original case.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/album.php?albumid=176&attachm...

theodoropoulos - 11-7-2012 at 04:31 AM

Mr jdowning your help is always amazing!!
how can i thank you????
i will study ALL of them right now!!!!
:applause::applause:

theodoropoulos - 11-8-2012 at 10:09 AM

I have a question about dimensions:
what is the width at the nut and there where the neck meets the body???
if i choose the plans of Crane.....

and second question:is the neck and head one piece???
and is the back of the head glued wood or is like violins?(without added wood in the back)
thank you!!

jdowning - 11-8-2012 at 01:17 PM

After searching for a few days I have finally found my research notes relating to Italian mandolinos.

These are all of the small narrow type (soundboard width ranging from about 115 mm to 150mm). I have no information on the wider (and longer string length?) type of mandolino - like the image posted at the start of this thread.

Checking the 'CRANE' website of Makoto Tsuruta he states that the drawing of the 6 course mandolino is of one made by G. Fontanelli, Bologna in 1735 - a six course instrument. I suspect that this is not an exact drawing of the original instrument as he gives two versions A and B so more likely a composite, 'generic' drawing based partly upon the original but not exact in all details?

The bracing shown on the drawing is almost identical to that of an early 18th C 5 course mandolino - by an anonymous maker - once in the Museé Instrumentale, Conservatoire National Superieur de Musique in Paris according to my records but I have been unable to trace the current location of the instrument. A fellow researcher with more in depth knowledge about mandolinos tells me that the profile of this instrument is almost identical to one of the surviving Stradivarius patterns.

It so happens that I had an opportunity to examine an example of a 5 course G. Fontanelli mandolino in the Dean Castle museum (12 December 1980). This example, in rather poor condition, is missing the rosette so it was possible to approximately measure the bracing configuration. I attach my hasty hand written notes for information but unfortunately do not have any images of the instrument.

Clearly the bracing is much simpler than the lute like bracing of the CRANE drawing - that in my opinion seems to be over-braced for such a tiny instrument?

Regarding the pegbox and neck, the pegboxes of manolinos may be carved (like a violin), with a glued on back plate (like an oud or lute) or sometimes left open (for better access to the pegs?)
The peg box is made separate from the neck with an oud like pegbox to neck joint.

For information, I shall next post a scaled image of a tracing of the Dean Castle museum Fontanelli example.



[file]24688[/file] [file]24690[/file]

theodoropoulos - 11-9-2012 at 04:46 AM

Sir you are a treasure......
i will study them now and will give a feedback!

jdowning - 11-9-2012 at 05:50 PM

.... and here is the full scale traced profile of the Dean Castle museun Fontanelli mandolino.

Note that the profile is not perfectly symmetrical - in common with many lutes (and ouds)

theodoropoulos - 11-10-2012 at 09:54 AM

:applause: perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

animalwithin - 11-10-2012 at 11:31 AM

What is it with Greeks being able to build so many different instruments haha. Lots of great luthiers in that country :bowdown: I really hope you build this theodor, after seeing that video, it would indeed be a great instrument to have.

theodoropoulos - 11-11-2012 at 10:30 AM

Guys studing the photos i have 2 questions:
in these 2 photo i attach i have not found anywhere the width of the neck at point A&B
also in the other photo as Mr Jdowning says the angle of the neck and the body at the meeting point is 34 degrees...
my question is if is what is the purpose of this angle....
:)
thanks !!!!

jdowning - 11-11-2012 at 11:54 AM

The neck joint angle is to limit maximum thickness of the neck to around 21 mm typically for these small mandolinos. So the necks are not semicircular in section but have a flattened profile - wider at the fingerboard surface than they are deep. See attached image of the approximate neck section for the Dean Castle museum Fontanelli mandolino

The sloping neck joint is typical for lutes - particularly the larger instruments with more than six courses.

[file]24757[/file]

theodoropoulos - 11-11-2012 at 02:49 PM

Thank you !!!!lthe profile is just like in ouds we could say!!!
and as far as the 34 degrees angle???thats very weird for me....i have not tried it before!!!!

thank you once again!!!:)

theodoropoulos - 11-14-2012 at 07:33 AM

A last question is what is the wood of neck&peghead???
it is not flamed maple..for sure..thanks in advance!!

jdowning - 11-14-2012 at 09:04 AM

The same woods that are/were used for lute or oud construction.

The neck can be a solid hardwood - varnished maple or walnut for example, sometimes stained - or a wooden core veneered to match the bowl or with fancy inlay work.
Pegboxes were hardwood just varnished or stained black or veneered with fancy inlays.

theodoropoulos - 11-15-2012 at 04:36 AM

thanks!!!!!!!!!!:)

Matthias - 12-13-2012 at 12:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by theodoropoulos  


i need to build this thing here but i dont have any plans,dimensions,no nothing...:(
can anyone help??
thanks guys!!:bounce::xtreme:


Hello,

some time ago I did a report about the historical mandolins. You vind this here for download:
http://www.lutes-strings.de/Upload/Artikel/
unfortunately it is only in german.

Furthermore the "Germanisches Nationalmuseum" in Nürnberg has a good list of all his manolins with a lot of description and measurements.

I recommend you to look into the book of Sacconi about Stradivari.

Best regards

Matthias