Mike's Oud Forums

Nahat oud 1931 in France

BaniYazid - 1-18-2013 at 11:35 AM

Hello oudist !

I don't know if it's a genuine Georgi Nahat :

http://www.leboncoin.fr/instruments_de_musique/414050764.htm?ca=18_...

If it's a real Nahat, it's a good good deal for 1500 euros (2000 $) !

The oud is located in France, near Lyon. Too far from me and I don't have the money ready, big frustration :(

I Hope it will go in good hands (a mike's oud forum member why not)

Brian Prunka - 1-18-2013 at 11:48 AM

It looks likely to be authentic . . . hard to tell except in person. I agree, $2000 is a good deal if it is authentic (and sounds good . . . not all of them do). The prices for these instruments have been going up a lot lately.

BaniYazid - 1-18-2013 at 12:02 PM

I really hesitate to borrow money to buy
More photo I received by email, it seems that the table is poorly repaired.
Thank you Brian for your opinion.

FastForward - 1-18-2013 at 12:40 PM

I'm no expert on Nahhat ouds, but there are a few obvious things that stand out and seem to suggest that the oud is not completely original or has undergone significant poor repairs.

1. the bridge is a very obvious difference from a Nahhat bridge
2. The rosettes, while they have nahhat-like designs, the work and lines seem to suggest otherwise.
3. The fingerboard has been sanded to a significant degree that one can't tell the true nature of the inlays.
4. Notice the inlay around the soundboard and compare that to the inlay around the fingerboard.

Also, no pictures of the label were provided.

Brian Prunka - 1-18-2013 at 01:56 PM

Since an all-original Nahat from the 1930s that was in good condition with no repairs would likely be worth in excess of US$10,000, I would expect that some repairs had occurred.

The bridge looks like those usually employed by the Nahats to me. Can you point out the differences that you consider obvious? Having played many Nahats nothing strikes me as notably different, so I'm curious what you see that I don't.

The Nahats had other workers do their rosettes, so variation in rosette execution is not necessarily a good indicator of authenticity, IMO. It does looks different from the typical rosette, but I'm not sure that means anything.

The fingerboard sanding is certainly an issue (apparent from the second set of photos), but one would have to see the oud in person to know if it was more than a cosmetic imperfection.

You are correct about the inlay around the body, good catch. Likely the top was removed and reattached at some point. It does look like the original top, and the mere fact that the instrument had this done is not a big deal (although one wishes that they did a better job of using appropriate purfling). Every old violin, viola, cello, bass has had this kind of work done many times, and many of those instruments are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. If the repair person changed the braces (unlikely but possible), then it would be a bigger issue, but again the even bigger issue is: how does it sound? Even if all the braces were replaced, who cares if it sounds great? Even a $2 million Stradivarius has had huge structural changes to make it work better with steel strings.

The dip in the face would concern me a bit.

Obviously it wouldn't appeal to a collector who prizes immaculate specimens, but for someone who intends to play it the main issue is the sound. Personally, I am a bit troubled by the current obsession with "authenticity" and I think many people forget that the main reason why Nahats are valuable in the first place is because of the sound, not the looks. If someone spends the money on an instrument because of the perceived collector value, rather than for musical reasons, then I don't feel much sympathy if their "investment" turns out poorly for them.

If the seller were asking $9,000 or something, one would rightly be very critical, but at $2K, minor questions of the authenticity of repairs seem insignificant to me.

For comparison, Simon Shaheen's primary Nahat oud has had the entire fingerboard, the pegs, the pickguard, and the main rosette all replaced. I am certain that Simon would not even sell that oud for $50K.

Sorry if this comes across as sounding harsh, I am just a bit weary of the trend towards fetishizing the historical value of ouds over the actual musical value. :shrug:

Alfaraby - 1-18-2013 at 03:26 PM

Could anyone, please, download these photos for us from that site !
I'd like to make a good close-up before trying to evaluate.
Thank you

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

corridoio - 1-18-2013 at 05:23 PM

Hi Alfaraby
I used a screen capture to download it

spyrosc - 1-18-2013 at 11:41 PM

Pics

[file]25484[/file]

[file]25486[/file]

BaniYazid - 1-19-2013 at 01:07 AM

Thank you for your comments everybody.

I'm far to be an expert in Nahat oud also, or in oud in general.
I agree with Brian, if I buy this oud it's to play it not to hang it on the wall or resell it at a higher price. And I'm sure that playing on a Nahat will not improve my playing magically !

I'll contact the seller today to have a sound sample and a picture of the label, and will decide after that.

Regards

suz_i_dil - 1-19-2013 at 03:23 AM

Hi Brian,

just about obsession about authenticity, because I'm one of those obsessive :)
Indeed if it is just fingerboard, tuning keys, rosette I don't mind. But if presence of such reparations we can wonder about the authenticity of soundboard. And this is the point. Any new soundboard on a Nahat bowl is not a Nahat anymore.
But anyway, let see how this oud sound. And sure, If Valence was not so far of my town, sure I would have gone there to give a try.

Regards

francis - 1-19-2013 at 03:33 AM

Eh oui, c'est tentant.....mais c'est de l'autre côté!

Brian Prunka - 1-19-2013 at 07:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil  
Hi Brian,

just about obsession about authenticity, because I'm one of those obsessive :)
Indeed if it is just fingerboard, tuning keys, rosette I don't mind. But if presence of such reparations we can wonder about the authenticity of soundboard. And this is the point. Any new soundboard on a Nahat bowl is not a Nahat anymore.
But anyway, let see how this oud sound. And sure, If Valence was not so far of my town, sure I would have gone there to give a try.

Regards


Yes, of course, that's why it's a big risk if one doesn't check it out in person. Though a Nahat with a new soundboard could easily still be worth $2000 if it sounded great and played well. After all, there are plenty of brand-new ouds selling for over $2000. Especially if the braces were preserved and meticulously attached to the new soundboard (although I do think that this soundboard is original). There are so many variables, and ideally one should remove the rosette and be able to inspect the inside.

My main oud has a Nahat bowl with everything else changed, neck, fingerboard, pegbox, pegs, soundboard, bracing, bridge, pickguard, and I woud say it's still easily worth $2000. I don't think I would personally sell it for less than $5000, because it is a great instrument regardless of the origin and that's how much money I would need to be reasonably sure that I could get something comparable.

My main point is that this is not priced anything like a 100% perfect authentic Nahat, so one should take that into account in criticizing it. Also, the seller notes that the soundboard has had repairs, so it's not like he's misrepresenting it (like some others I won't mention).

BaniYazid - 1-19-2013 at 08:56 AM

sample sound :

Brian Prunka - 1-19-2013 at 11:46 AM

Inasmuch as one can tell from a low-quality recording, it certainly sounds authentic.

Alexi_OUD - 1-19-2013 at 11:53 PM

Its truly amazing how most good Nahats sound so similar and to me the sounds rings in my ears as when I hear Farid playing.. amazing

Alfaraby - 1-20-2013 at 10:27 AM

Thanks guys for the photos.

This is not slander; this is history as I far as I know:

It should be clarified, once and forever: George Hanna Nahat (aka GHN here) is not THE Nahat we all know. THE Nahat is Abdo George Nahat (1860's-1941), just like THE Stradivarius is particularly Antonio Stradivari.

Abdo & Rofan has established the Nahat legacy in their workshop in Qaimarieh Quarter in Damascus, known as Ikhwan Nahat (Nahat Brothers) during the years 1880-1910's. After the liquidation of Nahat Bro. partnership in 1910's, Abdo alone took over and continued to elevate Nahat reputation to an unprecedented level in the new Arabian oud history. Abdo took the Nahat oud to new horizons and raised its standards so that the quality of his oud sound has defied attempts to explain or equal it, since he started to work and after he ceased or retired in early 1930's.

On the other hand, Abdo's other brothers, both Hanna & Antoine, continued to work under their own label, quitting the Ikhwan's workshop after Abdo took over the business. They were both fairly good luthiers, but never elevated to the level of Abdo.

GHN has shamelessly degraded the Nahat legacy. Unlike his father, his uncles Abdo, Rofan and Antoine, & his brother Tawfiq, he would have made what we all call now commercial ouds, especially after Abdo's immigration to Brazil and after his father and uncles passed away. He stood as the last Nahat in Damascus making ouds, while his nephews (Tawfiq's sons) didn't follow their father's steps and turned to medicine or whatever it was. This left GHN a space, that wasn't possible before, to make whatever he'd consider appropriate or suitable to earn his living, including making ouds that would have been a couple of pences-worth those days. I've heard from my late grandfather that in the 1940's, anyone could have just stepped into a shop in Jaffa or in Haifa (IL/Palestine) & buy a Nahat oud (probably GHN'S) without making any needless calculations or budget considerations. They were just affordable to any one.

Moreover, I assume GHN didn't work in manufacturing oriental furniture, like his ancestors, and dedicated his full time work to luthiery. He was poor, miserable, feeble kind of a guy, he just abandoned Nahat workshop and moved to work in "Fuad Abdallah Silka's" workshop, as was clearly indicated on his labels. This Silka was one of the commercial ouds suppliers in Damascus & no one has ever seen a reasonable oud of his. So it was just fine with GHN to work in a second rate shop like this & make his own ouds, not far from this quality. What a disgrace!

Just in order to be fair, one should admit that GHN didn't forget how to make quality ouds as tought by his father and uncles; so once he had decided, for this reason or another, to make a masterpiece, he was capable of. This how we see and hear those magnificent pieces of art he'd left us, as a proof of his HQ workmanship. Apart from those rare pieces, his other ouds were all standard commercial ouds, some were great but some were not. I've been offered a 1941 GHN's commercial oud for 1500$ or so, but after trying it for a week or so, I came into a conclusion it was a dull oud, no matter what kind of strings I tried, and I tried several. It was totally mute.

After I had written a short review about this oud trying to configure what it is, my Kurdish friend Karim Othman-Hassan ("Karim" is generous in Arabic, so is my friend Karim) wrote me as follows :
"It came in my mind, that when being in a holiday in Syria ten years ago, I fortunately took a picture of this Nahhat oud, discussed recently in Mike's. The seller wanted to sell it for 250 $ and I decided obviously not to buy it, because it was in a very bad condition. Take a look for yourself. "
Moreover, another friend of mine, Cyril, sent me more photos of the said oud.
How lucky I am to have such friends worldwide.

This offered "French" oud is just another GHN commercial oud, that apparently was involved in several accidents, "tinsmithed", painted and repainted that one can't tell its original color, nor wood - probably walnut.
It's obvious from looking at the attached photos - those posted by our fellow members and these posted by my friends - that it's the same old oud, but its soundboard has been replaced. The old one was a total wreck back ten years ago, so it seems it was replaced sometime during the past decade, or at least parts of it. However, I couldn't tell exactly what parts. The patch that was attached to the bottom side of the SB might have been removed to reveal the damaged parts as shown in the specific photo of that part, or that the whole SB might have been replaced by another old SB, originally damaged or was it wear out through the years.

The label that peeps through the hole seems like one of GHN's used in the late 1950's & 1960's. (Compare with these posted here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8370#pid539... ).

The bowl seems one of GHN's of the late 1930's early 1940's. Later he worked with another molds, less deeper, more wider. I tend to agree that any Nahat with a replaced SB is no longer a Nahat, nevertheless it might produce a great sound.

The sound sample is of a very low quality, one can't tell from whether it's good or bad. I can't agree that its Farid's toning, though the oud sounds not bad at all as far one can tell from such a recording. Better sound file might tell us more about this oud.

The bottom line therefore is : GHN commercial oud with a replaced soundboard, reasonable sound and bad over-all condition, I wouldn't buy even for a 50% off offer.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby





[file]25503[/file] [file]25505[/file] [file]25507[/file] [file]25509[/file] [file]25511[/file] [file]25513[/file]

Brian Prunka - 1-20-2013 at 05:53 PM

Thank you Alfaraby for the very interesting information. It does look like the same oud with some repairs to the soundboard.

The absent rosette also suggests that the current rosette may not be original.

BaniYazid - 1-20-2013 at 11:06 PM

Thank you very much Alfaraby.

I had a doubt when I saw this oud for sell more than one week ago, then it disappeared (I thought it was sold) and I see it again the late Friday. But I hope that it was nothing wrong and begin to plan a trip to Valence for the next Saturday.
So thank you again Alfaraby, and all members who gave their point of view.

Nahat or not, let the music play !

Best regards

Brian Prunka - 1-21-2013 at 07:22 AM

I would suggest that if someone purchases this oud, they should anticipate spending a fair amount of money on repairs to get it fully (and properly) restored.

SamirCanada - 1-21-2013 at 12:09 PM

If I had a oud like this, I would see if I can send it to Jameel.

Eventhough he is rather busy these days with his new business,

After what he did with Mike's Hefnaoui and also after seeing this... http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=3306

I believe in miracles. (where you from you sexy thang... )
:cool:

Also, John Vergara did an excellent job on Bassam's nahat. Eventhough the top was changed, maybe it needs to be changed.

Brian Prunka - 1-22-2013 at 08:09 AM

I think the face on Bassam's oud was already non-original, so it was pretty logical to replace it when it didn't sound good (and was having structural problems). I had the same issue on my oud; the face had already been replaced but didn't sound right, so having Najib build a new soundboard was the logical choice.