Mike's Oud Forums

OUD MOLD

abousammy - 2-2-2013 at 12:00 PM

HI ALL,
I;M LOOKING FOR A OUD MOLD DRAWING ,OR GEOMETRY WITH ALL DIMENSION,
Any help will be greatly appreciated!?

Fritz - 3-15-2013 at 01:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by abousammy  
HI ALL,
I;M LOOKING FOR A OUD MOLD DRAWING ,OR GEOMETRY WITH ALL DIMENSION,
Any help will be greatly appreciated!?


Hi abousammy

It seams that nobody likes to help...

I´d like to try to give an idea how difficult it is to get what you want !

It depends on how the Oud is wantetd to be... perhaps a turkish one ? An egyptian ? Syrian ? Armenian ?

There are different types and patterns to make a mould, and it´s a way to use geometry and physics. You have to involve some aspects on how the instrument is wantetd to sound like !

The mould is the very first thing you have to make if you want to build Ouds. This, I think, is the reason why no one wants to give you the most important base on building an Oud with a mould. Every Oud-maker has his own size and templates, created (mostly) on his own, with his own ideas and imaginations.

Create your own pattern, beginning with the main dimensions you´d like to have, keeping in mind the stringlength you want to play.

A real Oud-maker does never copy any others pattern or templates !

Be creative on your own, and the first step is done.

Kind regards

Fritz

aasuits - 3-15-2013 at 03:01 PM

it's not so impossible. The "build your own oud book "by Richard Hankey will get you started, it has plenty of data and diagrams. I have no idea if it's been updated or edited- the grainy pictures are not very good, but for when it was published, I guess it was OK.Probably all the self- taught builders of ouds on this forum have used Hankey's book.
The mold I use ended up being just a face outline with a shape for the central back rib. It has worked just fine for me.
Many traditional oud builders construct "in the air" with nothing but a board to fix the neck and tail blocks to.The biggest problem is refining the shape of the ribs. Once you have determined that and are satisfied with the back you've made, it becomes much easier.

Fritz - 3-16-2013 at 12:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by aasuits  
it's not so impossible. The "build your own oud book "by Richard Hankey will get you started, it has plenty of data and diagrams. I have no idea if it's been updated or edited- the grainy pictures are not very good, but for when it was published, I guess it was OK.Probably all the self- taught builders of ouds on this forum have used Hankey's book.
The mold I use ended up being just a face outline with a shape for the central back rib. It has worked just fine for me.
Many traditional oud builders construct "in the air" with nothing but a board to fix the neck and tail blocks to.The biggest problem is refining the shape of the ribs. Once you have determined that and are satisfied with the back you've made, it becomes much easier.


Hi aasuits

May be I´m the only one using my own self-constructed mold... never had Hankey´s book in hands or any other. I have two molds in use, one in the syrish style and one in egyptian style, or typical arabic. The next I want to build is a turkish one with the typical measurements of turkish Ouds.

The trick is to build a mold with more depth as the face pattern allows when tracing only the outline and making a half circle around it. Almost every Oud has more depth than the half of the widest line of the top. And there is the "secret".... how to make a mold... the "more" in depth in mind !

Perhaps sometimes in the near future I´ll try to make an Oud without a mold with all ribs equal in pattern... using wider end-ribs where the top will be glued on. And ofcourse you´re right... the bending of the ribs has to be the most important and most precisely work, building an oud with no mold.

Please have a look on my page to see the results :-)

Best wishes

Fritz

ksilakias - 4-30-2014 at 03:39 AM

Hi, Fritz. I'm with you. Also looking for measurements on building any type of mold for the turkish oud. Since im just experimenting im just looking for anything in the right way holding the ribs together :) got any new info on this?

Dr. Oud - 4-30-2014 at 05:13 PM

http://www.cafepress.com/droudpress

http://www.droud.com/completed.html

narciso - 5-1-2014 at 02:39 AM

[rquote=94486&tid=13738&author=aasuits
Many traditional oud builders construct "in the air" with nothing but a board to fix the neck and tail blocks to.The biggest problem is refining the shape of the ribs. [/ rquote]

"in the air" is surely the more appealing approach
But without a mould in place, I agree (having tried!) that it is much more difficult to refine the ribs as you go

A way round this that has worked for me is to plan the bowl shape using 3d modelling software , although of course this arguably takes away some of the enjoyment n doing things purely in the traditional way

When the bowl is computationally 'unwrapped', you get anice organic pattern (jpg attached) from which to cut the ribs accurately before you start gluing






[file]31260[/file]

jdowning - 5-1-2014 at 05:47 AM

Just how traditional is the 'in the air' method of construction for making an oud bowl and why would this method be used in preference to using a mould? Is this just an idea that has been introduced by those who are self taught with no traditional background in oud making? Who among surviving established builders working to the old traditions does not use a mould for bowl construction?

There is a parallel situation regarding the lute. The earliest record of a lute design dates to the mid 15th C (Arnault de Zwolle). The bowl is semicircular in section and built on a mould. During the early 1970's when there was a revival of the lute built to traditional standards (although there were then no luthiers with any traditional training in lute making) it was assumed that lute bowls were all semicircular in section. At least one maker at the time used an 'in the air' method for bowl making - using metal templates for shaping the ribs (all ribs being identical in geometry).

However, as more surviving examples of lutes were studied and measured it soon became apparent that few if any original lutes had bowls of semicircular section either being of a 'flattened' cross section or deeper than a pure semicircle - forms that require use of a mould for bowl construction each rib, being slightly different in profile, being individually fitted. The mould also guarantees that the bowl shape will conform to a traditional geometry created using only dividers and a straight edge.

See the 'Old Oud compared to Old Lute Geometry' thread on this page of the forum.

Like lute, like oud?

ksilakias - 5-1-2014 at 07:20 AM

Hi all thanks for the responses. Narciso, im looking for some kind of rib profile like you sent, would you happen to have this in a higher resolution?

Also the oud profile (of the side and the top of soundboard shape) would be a good help to the process


Furthermore for some friends i have been given some information about the arabic ouds. Here is a translation of the full forum thread.

>>> http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&t... <<<

I am looking for the basic 58.5 scale length standard turkish oud measurements myself

Since im experimenting and am really a beginner with building. Im busy with my second instrument and the oud will be my third.
In the air construction would be too difficult for me. Thats why if i would be able to make some kind of mold that is approximately the shape of the turkish oud.. i could divide the width into ribs and make a pattern on the wood to cut out.. I was having something like this in mind

SamirCanada - 5-1-2014 at 07:41 AM

take one of your ouds, put it down on a peice of paper and draw the outside curve. This is an aproximate profile which you can refine afterwards.

Matthias - 5-1-2014 at 11:45 PM

Hello all,

I would recommend to all beginners in lute/oud making the book by Robert Lundberg:
http://www.luth.org/books/lute_book.html
I had the wonderful advantage to take part at his lessons in germany several times, so I can highly recommend this book, as it represents the top level of lute making.

as Samir said, take the measurements of an high quality oud and you will have the best starting point.

Fritz, you are definitively not the only one with your own designed mold and doing this without Richards book. My own design you can see here:
http://www.lutes-strings.de/english/Aoud_floating-bridge-2011.php
and in action it is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0QteZToEc4

The question of an own design is the aim. For me an own design is a modern oud, my other models are traditional designs I took the measurements from good existing instruments saying to me why should I invent the design new if wonderful instruments exist and if I make an instrument for tradidional arabic music. It's the same procedure as in classical lute making. I would say around 90% of nowadays made lutes are copies of existing instruments.

Best regards

Matthias

ksilakias - 5-3-2014 at 05:23 AM

some information for those interested http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=ht...